A different side of Thailand

[rumak]

16 hours ago, Nakmuay887 said:

I'm starting to see it more and more and I still get strung along in many regards but I'm aware of it and careful to not be blindsided the best I can. I'm certain that I mean more to the kids than the adults around me. I've been treated at times as the person who will pick up the slack for the other coach when he's nursing a hangover or fighting with his girlfriend. 

 

He wants to head back to China to teach boxing because it pays so much more. Part of me hope that happens too so I can be solely in charge of the program. 

 

It's been a fun ride so far, but always working on a backup plan nearby if it does head south. 

I believe i mentioned long time ago ( or thought it, anyway) :   You seem pretty level headed and

so you have escaped the Rumak cynicism   lol     BUT ,  as One More points out,  there are always things that come up that we do not anticipate.   ( like a GF already ? ).    Go slow and steady

young man,  and hopefully your bob and weave talents will see you through.   Its all part of the sport of life..... and as one can witness on Forums,  people turn out in many forms from the kicks to the head or below the belt .   

[SiSePuede419]

First of all, good on you for skipping the flashpacker lifestyle and doing volunteer work and living close to the land with no AC and hot water.

 

That's coming from someone who has lived in a tipi in the Rocky Mountains with no running water and no heat in the winter when it got down to -15F (-26C).

 

Yes, boxing even in America is known as the "poor man's sport" because no expensive gear is needed (unlike Alpine snow skiing, for example)...just your fists and a pair of gloves.

 

But I don't encourage anyone, especially young children to box, play rugby or American football, either.

 

One word: concussions.

 

Leading to irreversible brain damage and a whole catalog of emotional and physical problems later in life.

 

Does Boxing Cause Brain Damage?

 

 

Counterpoint:

Of course, it's not like the average Thai rice farmer needs that much brain power anyway.  Thailand isn't going to the moon, discovering new CRISPR DNA technologies that save lives or researching a cure for cancer that doesn't involve chicken bones, counting rice grains and a shot of Lao Khao for friendly ghosts to drink anytime soon. ????

Edited February 13, 2020 by SiSePuede419

[Gecko123]

Here are my questions for the OP:

1. What is going on in the background of this shot? Are trainers attending to an opponent who is unable to get up or is possibly knocked out?

 

2. The kick boxing fight venue appears to take place at a local temple and to attract sizeable crowds. Is an admission fee charged for these events and who receives these proceeds?

 

3. There are a number of pictures taken at what looks like a school or gymnasium setting, but there are also quite a few shots taken in what looks like a residential or rustic boxing camp setting where I imagine there is next to no traditional academic activities going on. How many hours a day are these kids actually in a classroom setting learning reading, writing and arithmetic?

 

I think the OP is to be commended for trying to make a difference in these underprivileged kids lives, but it is also undeniable that there is great potential for their exploitation as well. I'm far from convinced that all involved in this type of program are as altruistic as the OP appears to be. My advice would be for the OP to be vigilant.

[ancharee]

19 hours ago, Nakmuay887 said:

Haha sorry. Went a bit overboard 

Nice one mate keep up the good work .

[UbonThani]

6 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

How many hours a day are these kids actually in a classroom setting learning reading, writing and arithmetic?

When are you funding it?

 

 

[justin case]

child abuse / child labor anyone ?

 

or does this guy think it is good and healthy for young children to smack themselves on the head ?

 

[Srikcir]

15 minutes ago, UbonThani said:

When are you funding it?

 

 

The broader and more relevant question is ...

'When is the Kingdom of Thailand going to fully fund the education of Karen settlements within Thailand?"

Human Security of Karen Refugees in Thailand

Journal of Population and Social Studies, Vol. 23 Number 2, July 2015; pgs 214-230

htpps://www.tci-thaijo.org

102401-Article Text-258876-1-10-2017-1.pdf

• Although the Thai government is not a signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention, it allowed the Karen to set up temporary settlements so long as international NGOs provided the assistance.
• Even if a country becomes a signatory in the 1951 Refugee Convention, it does not cover, in terms of basic income, the preservation of ethnic identities, freedom from man-made disasters and political representation.

At the end of the day Karen people, no matter what degree of education they can obtain and amount of income or savings, they remain stateless within a nation known for its xenophobia.

[Berkshire]

I'm just amazed at some of the criticism on this thread.  Firstly, Muay Thai has been around forever and will be here after we're all dead and buried.  So you're whining/whinging is not going to change anything.  Secondly, in my home country of the USA, there are all kinds of contact sports that kids participate in.  From boxing to football to hockey to basketball to wrestling, not to mention motocross, surfing, skiing, etc., all of which pose some danger.  Outlaw everything in your home countries?  You wouldn't dare, but you're all high and mighty criticizing the Thais.

 

As another said, some of you would criticize anything and everything.  I've seen TV members criticizing kids for spending too much time on social media, or their smartphones, or too much video games, or too much Thai soap/TV....it never ends.  I'd imagine you'd want these kids to lock themselves in their rooms and read medical journals day and night.  But then you'll probably still criticize! 

 

So OP, just take it all with a grain of salt. 

[sixlegs]

What a wonderful post.

[Kalasin Jo]

Well done you! Really great pics too. Keep up the good work!

[talahtnut]

4 hours ago, gunderhill said:

I'll  take that nanny state where the life expectancy is  higher thanks.

Life ain't measured in time, but what you contribute

to humanity.

The nanny state is a PC nightmare, you can stuff it.

[LM405]

Thanks for posting and for sharing the photos, I really enjoyed reading your post. Something positive for a change.

[geriatrickid]

31 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

I'm just amazed at some of the criticism on this thread.  Firstly, Muay Thai has been around forever and will be here after we're all dead and buried.  So you're whining/whinging is not going to change anything.  Secondly, in my home country of the USA, there are all kinds of contact sports that kids participate in.  From boxing to football to hockey to basketball to wrestling, not to mention motocross, surfing, skiing, etc., all of which pose some danger.  Outlaw everything in your home countries?  You wouldn't dare, but you're all high and mighty criticizing the Thais.

 

As another said, some of you would criticize anything and everything.  I've seen TV members criticizing kids for spending too much time on social media, or their smartphones, or too much video games, or too much Thai soap/TV....it never ends.  I'd imagine you'd want these kids to lock themselves in their rooms and read medical journals day and night.  But then you'll probably still criticize! 

 

So OP, just take it all with a grain of salt. 

Why not  make a realistic comparison. Boxing is the most appropriate. Aside from the fact that boxing is no longer encouraged  in  kids due to the irreversible brain damage, let's have a look at boxing at the  college/university level.  Here are the minimum requirements;

- Headgear is required

- 12oz gloves for all weight classes

- All Bouts contested in 3 x 2 minute rounds

- Annual physicals and pre/post-match exams

- USA Boxing certified coaches

 

Do you not understand the  importance of headgear? No one is saying to outlaw anything. What has been said is to  act in a responsible manner. In case you missed it, helmets are mandatory in most sports with kids now, so don't make the  false comparison with other sports. There is nothing tough about sustaining brain damage.

 

I cannot believe how many gullible people are falling for this self promotional narrative. 

Apparently there are a large number of people on this thread oblivious to the  abuse of karen  children. Well read the past news reports and it gives a depressing picture.

 

Here are some facts to consider: 

1. These are poor, powerless people. They have no recourse in Thailand. This is why they are easy prey to exploitation.

2. No reputable service agency allows a male to interact with young boys in this manner.

There are enough reports of past events that people in here should know by now. One cannot even take  tissue samples or swabs from the refugee kids now without a monitor present to ensure that all is correct. This is in everyone's best interests.

 

These children do not need to be bashing their heads in. There are other means of obtaining money. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has helped fund small money generating projects. Multiple legitimate organizations are on the ground doing excellent work. These are organizations that are subject to oversight both in their activity and financially. The US Peace Corps, AusAid, EuroPad  and many other  legitimate organizations are on the ground making a difference and they have sports programs. None involve unprotected physical fighting.  

 

[emptypockets]

20 hours ago, gunderhill said:

"Children" ? fighting? to be  honest I'm appalled.

Downright creepy if you ask me.

Better posting this stuff on Facebook.

[geriatrickid]

2 hours ago, UbonThani said:

When are you funding it?

 

 

It is funded. It is no worse than some of the rural programs in Issan. However, in this case the funding comes from foreign donors. Accompanying that, are  basic health programs including vaccinations.

You are  promoting yourself as some great savior of these children.  You don't fool me. 

 

[runamok27]

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful story. 

 

Your positive impact on these kids lives is truly inspiring. Although I am guessing that they may be having an even larger positive impact on you. 

[Nakmuay887]

There's alot to respond to so I'll do my best. 

 

- There is no funding around here for Karen people, most of the NGO organizations have long moved on to Yangon and other areas. Myanmar is definitely the flavor of the month for non profits and NGOs. Once these kids make it across the border or out of wherever they came from they are on their own. Thailand says well we let them in, that's enough. Many don't have any form of citizenship and never will. They will be stuck in Tak, Phoh Prah, etc and never be allowed to leave the province. So for someone to say that there is help for kids like this, where? I'm here every day. Haven't seen any. 

 

- My associates degree is what we called a 3 year degree +1 more year of continuing education after the fact at a university. Maybe there's a different term for it? I've never thought twice. 

 

- these kids all have protection, they have mouth guards, cups, etc. They aren't fighting or sparring without those things.

 

- most of these statistics posted are about boxing. Western boxing as we call it. Ali, Tyson etc. There is minimal face punching in Thai boxing as kicks score more than hands. There's no sense to stand there and wing punches at one another because it's scoring basically nothing. Most fights end by decision or kicks to the leg. Picture a Charley horse. The old Nak Muay I know around the country that do have problems... Those were brought on by drinking 6 days a week after they retired. Not from boxing. 

 

- one is a gymnasium as it's a government school. Those boys are in class Monday - Friday same as any other Thai child. They just don't have places to go back to so they live at the school full time. The other kids are complete citizen zeros with no nationality on either side. They live in a boarding school. They get their basic grade 1-10 or whatever the teachers are capable of. I don't work that aspect, I don't really know. 

 

- I have minimal interaction with Karen girls simply because I coach boys I don't know what Karen girls of the same age would be doing. There's many in Mae Sot but I've never stopped and asked. My girlfriend works for a large NGO and knows the Burmese and Karen well, I'll ask her and get back to you with information. 

 

- most events have a large crowd, but outside of the bankok, Pattaya, and phuket stadiums, most shows are free to attend. The promoter is given money from the temple or market to be a way to drum up interest for the market or event going on. Out of that money he pays the referees, the officials, doctor, and the fighters themselves. I've never asked for a copy of his financials so I'm not sure how much he earns. I do see how much the boys are paid. I've never received any. My thought process was one that if they are going to be fighting anyway to earn money they may as have a competent and experienced coach who cares. I figured it would make things safer for them and in turn allow me to learn more about a culture and people I care about. 

 

-gladiator school? I don't think so. I'm sure if we looked at statistics, these kids would be more likely to be shot dead going to school in the United States rather than being injured boxing in rural Thailand. 

 

In closing, I appreciate the fire many of you have shown about the safety of these kids. My suggestion is to get out there and make a difference. I'm one guy with limited means, I can't help everyone. But if there were more than just a few people helping I'm sure things would slowly improve for these kids and the thousands of others in their same situation across the country. Take that same passion and /you've thrown at me and go do something positive with it. Thailand is a big country, with many millions of people in dire situations. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. If I knew of ways that weren't Muay Thai related in which I could improve their lives I would go that avenue in a heart beat. That's unfortunately still a pipe dream. 

 

There isn't a surging expat population up here with good folks like ya'll lining up to help. There me, just me. On one hand I could turn a blind eye and pretend that this city and province aren't in a dire situation with these people, OR I can help. However I can. That's what I'm doing. 

 

Have any of you ever seen kids living in a garbage dump? Kids stumbling out of the Forest half dead from who knows where? Spend a few weeks here and you will see some things that will break your heart. There's no malice on my end, I'm not trying to develop killing machines or gladiators, I'm trying to help them. 

 

I think it's truly gotten worse here in recent years because when Myanmar opened up, Mae Sot started upgrading the city rapidly for an increase in people coming across the border. Unfortunately they completely ignored the problems and people around here and tried to drop a brand new city on top of a beat down old one. A bandaid so to speak. It just made things worse and built an even larger disparity between the citizens, the migrants and the refugees. 

 

I welcome anyone who wants to see what goes on to come stay here for a week with me. You can see what goes on, and my relationships and workings with these kids. There's nothing but positivity, love and admiration on my end towards them. I've seen them learn and develop teamwork, budgeting, saving money, self confidence, self care, and most importantly self worth. They are slowly learning that they can be something in life, regardless of where they started. 

 

The positives of martial arts will ALWAYS outweigh the negatives. But you'd have to get off your computer and go try it for yourself to understand what I'm talking about. 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Nakmuay887

[Fairynuff]

Amazing story and amazing pictures to go with it. I’m sure few of us will ever experience this side of Thailand. Be very very proud of what you’re doing for these kids. Good luck and long may you continue.

[Assurancetourix]

21 hours ago, UbonThani said:

France had 4 rugby deaths in one year.

 

You compare peaches with oranges 
Dead but for reasons that have nothing to do with it.
If they avoided veterinary products to have more muscles and incidentally less brains, they would not die of a pulmonary embolism or a lightning arrest of their heart.

 

To return to the subject; when I saw the photo of Nakmuay 887, I had already seen it on Thai TV; I rarely watch TV I usually have more exciting things to do.
this gentleman is not just anyone; he's a boxing pro.
Astonishing that nobody, already two pages, did not recognize him.
Obviously it will arrive on page 10 ..( sorry )

I admire what he undertook;
boxing is not my thing but what he does, I take my hat off to him.
I met Karen children in a refugee village, Mae Hong Son province; they are open, come to us, speak very good english, ask questions about the world, the countries where we come from ...
Nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Thai children of the same age who are closed in on themselves and shy, calling us "farang" from afar, but fleeing if we try to start a dialogue that will never happen.

 

[androokery]

20 hours ago, UbonThani said:

They are protected. That's what gloves are for.

“Gloves reduce the number of cuts caused, but British Medical Associationresearch has stated that gloves do not reduce brain injuries and may even increase them, because the main cause of injury is acceleration and deceleration of the head, and fighters wearing gloves are able to punch harder to the head. Gloves may reduce the amount of eye injuries, especially if they are thumbless, but retinal tears and detached retinas still occur to boxers wearing modern gloves.”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove

 

 

[Assurancetourix]

7 minutes ago, androokery said:

“Gloves reduce the number of cuts caused, but 

There will always be people "against" and others "for"
Just browse the news on the daily paper;
anti court hunting or anti corrida ...

Thai boxing has been around for so long; who are you to request its removal?
Personally I don't really like boxing in general or combat sports;
I prefer mountain biking; it's my choice  ;
others prefer line fishing, it's their choice.
and other F1 or pony races ...

I haven't read all the lines; only the first 2 and the last 3 or 4.
I find that there is a lot of waste; and if we revisited ourselves on the heart of the subject which is neither Thai boxing nor anything else,
but what our friend does that I don't know and have never met.
How many members are there on this forum who use their knowledge and their time to ensure that orphans who will never have Thai nationality unless they get lost in a cave, can have a better life than their ancestors?
Please leave the schoolyard fights in the locker room to find out who has the biggest ..

[watthong]

In my early teens I was having trouble with bullies at school so I signed up for both tae-kwon-do (high flying kicks) and judo (the opposite of the former.) Note that the "mantra" of both these martial-arts was to defend oneself, not to hurt or attack others. Still there is no denial that these are violent sports (especially the former). The one person who voiced any concern was my mom, who unfortunately was separated from my dad and therefore was out of hearing shots. During the course of training for both I suffered these casualties: a broken fist and a torn shoulder joint, both left untreated as I was so used with knocks and bruises and dad didn't really care. But the biggest one was a time-bomb that exploded decades later: a herniated disk. It came from the right side, same side as the torn shoulder joint, the broken fist, same side where I tried to flip my opponent over and over during the course of Judo training as if he were a 50 kilo sack of rice.

 

The burst disk  happened in a period where I didn't not have any medical insurance so it took me a while (6 months of pushing shopping carts, driving using my left leg, etc. as means to move about) to get myself to Thailand where I could afford a diskectomy. The surgery was successful in relieving me of the pain but by then the right leg has become weaker and lamer - read half-dead; I could no longer run or ride a motosay and if I strained doing any excercise my back would be immobilized with pain for days. So my warning to all parents is not involve your children in any kind of violent sports in their tender age regardless of what the coach says or how much they kids say they want it. They can do whatever they want when they become adult and decide how they are going to use/abuse their bodies (sex, drugs and rock and roll plus myriad others.) Starting in childhood there will be price to pay later on; children don't know any better, give them a cigarette and they'll smoke it  so saying they're not forced into doing it is a bit irresponsible coming from an adult.

 

(On a similar vein - re abusing one's body for financial gain - child prostitution is a misnomer. Children can not consent therefore they can not prostitute themselves.)

[namatjira]

worked wonders for Muhammad Ali, brain dead for much of his later life....not too many people would like to see their sons or daughters getting hit around the head on the off chance they can score a ‘ gig ‘ in Bangkok for a big payday.

educate them in other ways, they have the brains, or did, before they mashed them up under your ill thought out guidance.

[Nakmuay887]

45 minutes ago, androokery said:

“Gloves reduce the number of cuts caused, but British Medical Associationresearch has stated that gloves do not reduce brain injuries and may even increase them, because the main cause of injury is acceleration and deceleration of the head, and fighters wearing gloves are able to punch harder to the head. Gloves may reduce the amount of eye injuries, especially if they are thumbless, but retinal tears and detached retinas still occur to boxers wearing modern gloves.”

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove

 

 

You are still not comparing identical sports. The article is about western boxing, a sport where all you do is punch. 

 

Thai boxing has few similarities and it's scored on a kick and knee based system more than a punching system. Most times punches are simply to setup the kicks or other tools. Also in boxing there's two targets, your head and your torso. In Thai boxing you have 8 targets. Hence why the majority of fights are them kicking one another in the leagues. 

 

Western boxing is leagues more dangerous than Thai boxing, most of the damage in Muay Thai is superficial. 

 

I bet there's a comparable amount of kids that box in Thailand vs say play American football and western boxing in the united states combined yet Thailand has a fraction of the deaths, a mere fraction. Why? Because it's safer, point blank. The fact that you keep posting articles that aren't even discussing what the current topic is shows that you lack the knowledge to successfully argue your points. 

 

Posting an article about becoming punch drunk or receiving brain damage or CTE has nothing to do with Muay Thai in Thailand. Boxing and Muay Thai have about as much In common as hockey and ringette. They both wear gloves. So what? That's where the similarities end. 

 

Boxing is generally 12 rounds, a regulated Thai right is 5 and they really only fight 2 of those rounds. This is apples and oranges 

[Gillyflower]

Many, many years ago, when I lived in Sydney, there used to be a Police Boys Club, situated in just about the worst part of the town.  It kept a lot of kids off the street and becoming gangsters.

[rumak]

3 hours ago, Berkshire said:

As another said, some of you would criticize anything and everything.  I've seen TV members criticizing kids for spending too much time on social media, or their smartphones, or too much video games, or too much Thai soap/TV....it never ends.  I'd imagine you'd want these kids to lock themselves in their rooms and read medical journals day and night.  But then you'll probably still criticize! 

 

I have been admonished repeatedly for criticizing the people who are always criticizing.  Ah, the critical responses from hypocritical persons are definitely a jolt to my critical thinking. 

Just shut up Rumak !   " Mrs. Rumak, they're picking on me again ! "  

    "mai pen rai..... kin kow ru yang ? "

[Nakmuay887]

3 minutes ago, namatjira said:

worked wonders for Muhammad Ali, brain dead for much of his later life....not too many people would like to see their sons or daughters getting hit around the head on the off chance they can score a ‘ gig ‘ in Bangkok for a big payday.

educate them in other ways, they have the brains, or did, before they mashed them up under your ill thought out guidance.

I never knew that Ali lived and fought in Thailand. Any idea of which Camp? Was this before or after his western boxing career? Must have been tough for him to find fights vs the thai's considering he was around 230 lbs at his best. 

 

I applaud you for teaching me something new. 

 

Two different sports, had you read the majority of the thread you'd understand that. Or then again, you likely wouldn't. 

[Nakmuay887]

1 minute ago, Gillyflower said:

Many, many years ago, when I lived in Sydney, there used to be a Police Boys Club, situated in just about the worst part of the town.  It kept a lot of kids off the street and becoming gangsters.

Sure! I'll take a bunch of migrant kids with no citizenship to the police station and ask the cops if they would like to help me build a police boys club. I'll make sure to write this idea down as it's a great one...

[rumak]

Just now, Nakmuay887 said:

I never knew that Ali lived and fought in Thailand. Any idea of which Camp? Was this before or after his western boxing career? Must have been tough for him to find fights vs the thai's considering he was around 230 lbs at his best. 

 

I applaud you for teaching me something new. 

 

Two different sports, had you read the majority of the thread you'd understand that. Or then again, you likely wouldn't. 

Khun Nak .    A major part of winning a boxing match is often the strategy one uses, much the

same as on forums.   You surely will wear yourself out trying to duke it out with those (majority) whose opinions will never change.   You being a bit younger may have more changes to come, in the meantime keep doing what you feel is right.  

I do advise you that hitting your head against a brick wall can cause brain damage   ????

[Deerculler]

Great post 

Many thanks for sharing with us and showing something different and positive in Thailand.