Investing

Tayaout · February 24, 2020

10 minutes ago, digibum said:

Here's an article from a very reputable source, CNBC, that says that the majority of Bitcoin trading is a hoax.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/majority-of-bitcoin-trading-is-a-hoax-new-study-finds.html

They refer about trading volume that is faked by smaller unregulated exchanges so they look bigger than they are or to propup some smaller coin. It has nothing to do with bitcoin.

It's only relevant for those who use https://coinmarketcap.com/ or similar.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Tayaout

sanemax · February 24, 2020

5 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

Its way too big for that kind of manipulation to happens now, you can't just move a 50 billions of daily volumes so easily.

It wouldnt be easy, but, would it be possible ?

Also the gang wouldnt need to move 50 Billion , they would just need to buy enough to get the price rising and let other investors do the rest by them buying .

They would just need to sell once they think they price has gone as high as it will go and make a huge profit .

If the gang had been doing that since the beginning, they would be billionaires by now

digibum · February 24, 2020

4 minutes ago, Tayaout said:

They refer about trading volume that is faked by smaller unregulated exchanges so they look bigger than they are or to propup some smaller coin. It has nothing to do with bitcoin.

It's only relevant for those who use coin marketcap website or similar.

It has everything to do with Bitcoin if those numbers are reported to be real.

Quote

The analysis showed that “substantially all of the volume” reported on 71 out of the 81 exchanges was wash trading, a term that describes a person simultaneously selling and buying the same stock, or bitcoin in this case, to create the appearance of activity in the market. In other words, it’s not real.

I don't care if they're doing it to seem larger than they are, it may be important to me to know if the price declined 20% yesterday, what the actual volume of trading was.

freeman01 · February 24, 2020

1 minute ago, digibum said:

Both the NYSE and CME simply provide the mechanism to trade. They make money off of trading. They don't care what's being traded. Also it seems ironic that you're touting the decentralization of Bitcoin in one post and then cite as a trustworthy source, firms that want to centralize the trading of Bitcoin.

Thats where you are dishonest and misleading, you really like to twist people words like someone mentioned earlier, good job you are a pro, apparently you have been doing that most of your life, well congrats you succeeded !

My point there, again, is to show that bitcoin is anything but a scam, you don't get approved by NYDFS for trading on regulated US markets if you are a ponzi or a scam.

freeman01 · February 24, 2020

8 minutes ago, sanemax said:

It wouldnt be easy, but, would it be possible ?

Also the gang wouldnt need to move 50 Billion , they would just need to buy enough to get the price rising and let other investors do the rest by them buying .

They would just need to sell once they think they price has gone as high as it will go and make a huge profit .

If the gang had been doing that since the beginning, they would be billionaires by now

From my understandings and evrything I have read about this, i believe it is not possible, but i am not going to pretend i understand all this in great details. It is a very complex matter and the amounts of money involved now is really huge, the large regulated exchanges I believe have some protections in place against that kind of malpractices.

Airalee · February 24, 2020

1 hour ago, freeman01 said:

The point of mentioning cnbc is its a freaking regulated large media known by everyone and that would get in deep trouble if they talked about a scam ?

digibum · February 24, 2020

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

It wouldnt be easy, but, would it be possible ?

Also the gang wouldnt need to move 50 Billion , they would just need to buy enough to get the price rising and let other investors do the rest by them buying .

They would just need to sell once they think they price has gone as high as it will go and make a huge profit .

If the gang had been doing that since the beginning, they would be billionaires by now

Since you're not going to get a straight answer from the Bitcoin advocates, here is what some reputable sources have said:

CNBC: A single anonymous market manipulator caused bitcoin to top $20,000 two years ago, study shows

Forbes: ‘Striking’ Bitcoin Market Manipulation Revealed

Bloomberg: A Lone Bitcoin Whale Likely Fueled 2017 Surge, Study Finds

Newsweek: Mysterious Bitcoin Player Manipulated Cryptocurrency to Historic $326 Billion Market Value, Study Claims

FRAUD Magazine: Are the prices of cryptocurrencies being manipulated?

CoinDesk wrote this summary of suspected manipulation.  

And CoinTelegraph offers a counter-argument, albeit somewhat weak, the the reports mentioned by CNBC, Forbes, Bloomberg, and Newsweek are wrong.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/3-reasons-why-one-trader-didnt-manipulate-bitcoin-price-to-20k

But, here's part of one of the people arguing against the study that concluded market manipulation.

Quote

“Wake up call; every market is ‘manipulated’. Everybody tweeting something about the price of a certain asset is ‘manipulating’ the market. Doesn’t mean you can’t make money,” trader Michaël van de Poppe summarized in a Twitter post on Monday.

In other words, shut up, we made money.

Tayaout · February 24, 2020

9 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

From my understandings and evrything I have read about this, i believe it is not possible, but i am not going to pretend i understand all this in great details. It is a very complex matter and the amounts of money involved now is really huge, the large regulated exchanges I believe have some protections in place against that kind of malpractices.

I think it's possible but high risk so unlikely. What is more likely IMO is that some less reputable exchange that offer leverage squeeze their customers positions by doing large buy or sell since they have the information needed to liquidate them and create a domino effect. We've seen large price swing on some exchange that wasn't reflected as much on the other exchange. Everywhere where money is involved someone will try to take advantage of less experienced victims.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Tayaout

EdrigoSalvadore · February 24, 2020

Bitcoin is worth 179 billion USD, surely it must be a scam.

digibum · February 24, 2020

16 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

My point there, again, is to show that bitcoin is anything but a scam, you don't get approved by NYDFS for trading on regulated US markets if you are a ponzi or a scam.

So, are you saying that none of the stocks that are traded on the NYSE are scams or engaged in some other sort of scammy activity?

Herbalife, HLF on the NYSE is a well known MLM company often accused of running a pyramid scheme.

Tayaout · February 24, 2020

I had the same conversation with a IT "specialist" and a financial planner about 7 years ago. That did not age well when I see them occasionally at familly mettings. They stay pretty quiet on the subject nowadays. My uncle like to tell them how much the 5 bitcoins I gave him as a gift is now worth.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Tayaout

Airalee · February 24, 2020

1 hour ago, freeman01 said:

Most people, those around here included, will likely FOMO in the next time the media are vocal about it when it is litterally the worst time to buy and without doing any research.

“Buy now or be priced out forever”

-every Realtor circa 2007

freeman01 · February 24, 2020

4 minutes ago, digibum said:

So, are you saying that none of the stocks that are traded on the NYSE are scams or engaged in some other sort of scammy activity?

Herbalife, HLF on the NYSE is a well known MLM company often accused of running a pyramid scheme.

Exactly what I am saying thank you at least we agree on something.

You don't like MLM ? Well apparently the US regulators don't think of it as a ponzi or a scam. What were you saying earlier about regulations ? Oh yeah ...

digibum · February 24, 2020

1 minute ago, Airalee said:

“Buy now or be priced out forever”

-every Realtor circa 2007

I really have no problem buying into Bitcoin at a higher price 10 or 20 years from now IF it gained 10% or 20% market penetration. Right now, it's a stone-cold gamble, period. Anybody that has to tell you to kiss your money goodbye when you invest and only invest money you can afford to lose, is describing a gambling opportunity. I'm more than happy to wait until it's matured a bit.

But, that's why some people are angel investors and some are VCs and some buy after the IPO. The angel investor has a much, much lower win rate than a VC and the VC has a much lower win rate than people that invest after the IPO.

Do the angel and VCs make a lot more money? Yes, but they bought 20 companies that failed in order to get in on the one that became the next Google.

The only problem is, you don't know if Bitcoin or any crypto is the next Google or the startup that crashes and burns after plowing through your investment.

Airalee · February 24, 2020

1 minute ago, digibum said:

I really have no problem buying into Bitcoin at a higher price 10 or 20 years from now IF it gained 10% or 20% market penetration. Right now, it's a stone-cold gamble, period. Anybody that has to tell you to kiss your money goodbye when you invest and only invest money you can afford to lose, is describing a gambling opportunity. I'm more than happy to wait until it's matured a bit.

But, that's why some people are angel investors and some are VCs and some buy after the IPO. The angel investor has a much, much lower win rate than a VC and the VC has a much lower win rate than people that invest after the IPO.

Do the angel and VCs make a lot more money? Yes, but they bought 20 companies that failed in order to get in on the one that became the next Google.

The only problem is, you don't know if Bitcoin or any crypto is the next Google or the startup that crashes and burns after plowing through your investment.

I was just using that as an example of the flawed logic that these bitcoin enthusiasts use to try to convince those of us that question anything about it.

digibum · February 24, 2020

2 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

Exactly what I am saying thank you at least we agree on something.

You don't like MLM ? Well apparently the US regulators don't think of it as a ponzi or a scam. What were you saying earlier about regulations ? Oh yeah ...

Well, I think payday loans are a scam and they're legal. Not everything that is scammy or scummy is illegal.

That said, a MLM usually ends up with the little guys getting screwed.

freeman01 · February 24, 2020

19 minutes ago, Airalee said:

“Buy now or be priced out forever”

-every Realtor circa 2007

How about the people that got convinced NOT to buy here and wont fall into fomo when the times comes ? Yeah thats a win, the point is to help people make an educated and careful decision when investing.

Airalee · February 24, 2020

6 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

How about the people that got convinced NOT to buy here and wont fall into fomo when the times comes ? Yeah thats a win, the point is to help people make an educated and careful decision when investing.

Digibum is doing a great job of helping people make an educated and careful decision. Clear and concise so that even mush for brains people such as myself can understand.

You...not so much.

digibum · February 24, 2020

3 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

How about the people that got convinced NOT to buy here and wont fall into fomo when the times comes ? Yeah thats a win, the point is to help people make an educated and careful decision when investing.

Well, that's sort of presents a bit of a logical problem. If Bitcoin is the future of currency|gold|digital assets|commodities or whatever, why not wait? It's going to the moon, right? You're telling OP that it's high risk and high reward, right? Even if it went to $20K, I don't think that's anywhere near worth the risk today. So, it would need to go to $50,000 or $100,000 or $1,000,000.

So what's the downside of waiting until there's less risk other than you're giving up a small amount of reward? Because according to you, the upside is so astronomical, what's the real difference between $9,000 and $20,000 when the upside is $1,000,000?

You're the one creating the FOMO by saying that people are going to get shut out of profits but given the massive upside you're also preaching, the difference will be comically insignificant.

gearbox · February 24, 2020

On 2/22/2020 at 1:25 PM, digibum said:

To be honest, what I don't understand is the cult like way that Bitcoin grabs people. I've literally known people who are so technologically illiterate that can't create a simple webpage, start talking to me like they're cryptography experts after getting involved with Bitcoin.

Wow...quite surprised to see such in-depth posts

about crypto currencies here. Crypto currencies are just some of the many ways for fools to be parted with their money. Instead of fighting them just fork the source code, call the new currency BetterBitcoin and start selling.

At the height of the crypto craze there was an ad for a crypto curencies conference, the visitors could buy passes only with credit cards, no crypto payments ????

digibum · February 24, 2020

2 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Instead of fighting them just fork the source code, call the new currency BetterBitcoin and start selling.

Isn't that what Craig Wright did with Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Gold?

CharlieK · February 24, 2020

48 minutes ago, digibum said:

I really have no problem buying into Bitcoin at a higher price 10 or 20 years from now IF it gained 10% or 20% market penetration. Right now, it's a stone-cold gamble, period. Anybody that has to tell you to kiss your money goodbye when you invest and only invest money you can afford to lose, is describing a gambling opportunity. I'm more than happy to wait until it's matured a bit.

But, that's why some people are angel investors and some are VCs and some buy after the IPO. The angel investor has a much, much lower win rate than a VC and the VC has a much lower win rate than people that invest after the IPO.

Do the angel and VCs make a lot more money? Yes, but they bought 20 companies that failed in order to get in on the one that became the next Google.

The only problem is, you don't know if Bitcoin or any crypto is the next Google or the startup that crashes and burns after plowing through your investment.

In ten or 20 years you won't be able to afford to buy Bitcoin! There is nothing wrong in holding some bitcoin now for the long term. If you can anything upto 5% of your total worth could be a good investment. Now would be the time to get in, you won't be able to buy at these prices again.

I have been trading BTC for nearly 4 years. I've made some money and lost some money, But it is learning curve. I don't listen to the media because they are all just trying to make a story one way or another. Most don't really know what they are talking about.

Trying to compare BTC with the next google is a mistake! But could BTC replace gold as a store of value, possibly in the west, it could at least compete with Gold. Comparing BTC with traditional investment vehicles is wrong.

At the end of the day you should decide if BTC has a future in this world and if you think it does why not invest? But if you don't see it, well stay well away.

Also do your own research don't rely on others to tell you what is or isn't a good investment. But to just write it off as a scam is being somewhat ignorant.

If it's a pure gamble at this stage, then surely that is the time to get in. A market cap of 179 billion is a hell of a gamble? I don't think so. lol

You'll be kicking yourself you didn't buy when you could have, even a small investment will be worth a lot more in 10 years time.

1 bitcoin can be divided into 100,000,000 Satoshi imagine when a Satoshi is worth just $1 Which is quite possible in 10 + years time!

If you are young enough they say that holding .28% of a bitcoin could put you in the 1% wealth category in 10-20 years time.

One of the points about BTC was to get away from fiat currencies, and the inflation that creates, you can't just print more BTC there is a finite amount of BTC. So if you are worried about the value of your $, £ or Yen etc then holding BTC is well worth the potential risks.

I can think of quite a few reasons why it's a good idea to hold some BTC, but if you don't think it's worth the risk that's fine more for those that are willing to take that risk.

Airalee · February 24, 2020

54 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

In ten or 20 years you won't be able to afford to buy Bitcoin!

Buy now or be priced out forever!

54 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

Also do your own research don't rely on others to tell you what is or isn't a good investment.

Any “research” just leads to me to beady eyed hucksters on YouTube saying things such as....

56 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

You'll be kicking yourself you didn't buy when you could have, even a small investment will be worth a lot more in 10 years time.

freeman01 · February 24, 2020

1 hour ago, digibum said:

Well, that's sort of presents a bit of a logical problem. If Bitcoin is the future of currency|gold|digital assets|commodities or whatever, why not wait? It's going to the moon, right? You're telling OP that it's high risk and high reward, right? Even if it went to $20K, I don't think that's anywhere near worth the risk today. So, it would need to go to $50,000 or $100,000 or $1,000,000.

So what's the downside of waiting until there's less risk other than you're giving up a small amount of reward? Because according to you, the upside is so astronomical, what's the real difference between $9,000 and $20,000 when the upside is $1,000,000?

You're the one creating the FOMO by saying that people are going to get shut out of profits but given the massive upside you're also preaching, the difference will be comically insignificant.

I didn't told anyone to FOMO in, that's again your twisted mind who is seeing things.

I said that you by being too obnoxious to bitcoin you are leading some to shut the door down on it as opposed to keeping an eye opened, that's not the same.

By the way, where did I say the return would be astronomical ? I never mentioned any numbers and I am not expecting anything crazy, I am just confident it will perform well if not outperform anything else, not necessarily in a crazy way like it did in the past.

I don't want to be cocky but there is a bit of a difference with your numbers.

10k to 1M = 9900%

20k to 1M = 4900%

50k to 1M = 1900%

Now that's doesn't mean to FOMO in now, for all we now the price could hoover over 10k for the entire year or more.

Never ever FOMO into anything, doing so is just gambling not investing, you might win but likely you'll lose. Investing by definition means careful research, planning and calculation no matter the asset. For instance it took me few years from the first time I heard about Bitcoin to the point where I did some serious research, think several months of intensive reading and listening, before I bought in.

By the way, I do not believe bitcoin will ever be used for buying coffee or whatever daily purchases, things will evolve much more before this happens, currently the best we can hope for in that direction is the development around the lightning network but it is far from proven, unlike bitcoin, and we are years away in any cases.

We are barely scratching the surface of what this new tech is capable of, when I say revolutionary technology, I don't say that lightly.

CharlieK · February 24, 2020

43 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Buy now or be priced out forever!

Any “research” just leads to me to beady eyed hucksters on YouTube saying things such as....

LOL, You are entitled to your opinion. Understandable that people are negative to opportunity when they don't understand. ????

digibum · February 24, 2020

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

In ten or 20 years you won't be able to afford to buy Bitcoin! There is nothing wrong in holding some bitcoin now for the long term. If you can anything upto 5% of your total worth could be a good investment. Now would be the time to get in, you won't be able to buy at these prices again.

Even if each Bitcoin was worth $1,000,000,000,000,000,000 you would still be able to buy $10 worth. This doesn't even make sense.

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

I have been trading BTC for nearly 4 years. I've made some money and lost some money, But it is learning curve. I don't listen to the media because they are all just trying to make a story one way or another. Most don't really know what they are talking about.

And every person that is into Bitcoin is just trying to make a story one way or the other and in most cases doesn't know what they're talking about either. ????

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

Trying to compare BTC with the next google is a mistake! But could BTC replace gold as a store of value, possibly in the west, it could at least compete with Gold. Comparing BTC with traditional investment vehicles is wrong.

Well, honestly, it was a bit hard to pin down the previous two Bitcoin guys because they keep changing the definition of what Bitcoin even is to suit whatever argument they happen to be making.

But you're right, trying to compare BTC to Google is a mistake. Google is actually worth something. If you take all of Google's assets and subtract it's debts, it's a positive number which means Google can never go to $0 because someone will always find value in those assets and buy Google before it goes to $0. The same cannot be said of Bitcoin.

The problem I have with comparing Bitcoin to gold is that, gold also has value.

It's funny, a good buddy of mine is a Bitcoin super-evangelist. He wrote a book and sent me a copy to get my feedback because he knows I have a very critical eye.

He's spinning some yarn about some time in the not too distance future where people are roaming the streets and fending off people with guns. There's been a worldwide financial collapse caused by the printing of too much money. But he makes the case for Bitcoin talking about how gold won't help people because gold is too heavy to carry around. He has his trusty USB wallet with his Bitcoin on it and he's able to buy and trade for food and supplies.

I'm like, people are killing each other in the streets for food and there's a cellular service still working flawlessly? LOL.

Believe me, if the world goes tits up the way many Bitcoin advocates claim (or used to claim, they've backed off the end of the world scenarios considerably over the years), there's no internet, bro. All your digital currency is worthless.

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

Also do your own research don't rely on others to tell you what is or isn't a good investment. But to just write it off as a scam is being somewhat ignorant.

It's not so much that Bitcoin itself is a scam. One can come to their own conclusions on that. It's that the people that promote it are often scammers.

I have said, several times now, that I have bought Bitcoin (usually to do money transfers) and I would buy it in the future when/if the technology matures and it gets a good 10% - 20% market share.

But, anybody that is telling you to invest in Bitcoin but can't explain what the underlying value of Bitcoin is, is a scammer.

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

If it's a pure gamble at this stage, then surely that is the time to get in. A market cap of 179 billion is a hell of a gamble? I don't think so. lol

If you want to LOL at something, maybe it's that Bitcoin has been around for 10 years, has had massive hype in the media and online, and still has less than 1% worldwide market share.

If you read some of my previous posts, you'll note that I gave some examples of why this should be seen as a massive failure, not a win.

It's also funny that you said not to look at Bitcoin like a traditional investment, yet your reason for calling it not a gamble is the market cap, which is how traditional investments are measured.

The real LOL is that you think market cap is the same as the market cap of something like Google. It's more like saying that Citibank has $1 trillion in customer deposits, so Citibank is worth $1 trillion.

That's not how it works. All of those people with their $179 billion invested, want their money back eventually. $179 billion could become $179 very quickly.

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

You'll be kicking yourself you didn't buy when you could have, even a small investment will be worth a lot more in 10 years time.

The true sign you're getting suckered. FOMO ALERT!!!

1 hour ago, CharlieK said:

1 bitcoin can be divided into 100,000,000 Satoshi imagine when a Satoshi is worth just $1 Which is quite possible in 10 + years time!

If you are young enough they say that holding .28% of a bitcoin could put you in the 1% wealth category in 10-20 years time.

FOMO FOMO FOMO FOMO FOMO

This is so confused it's hard to even read. If you are young enough, you can be in the 1% wealth category in 10-20 years time. What does your youth have to do with whether or not Bitcoin goes up in value? If you don't have 10 years left on this earth, the value increases at the same rate as if you're 2 years old.

Also, your math is painful. That would mean that 75 million people could potentially be in the top 1% wealth category, just from Bitcoin. Right now, you have to have a net worth of $900,000 to be in the top 1% worldwide. So, even in today's dollars, the value of .28% of a bitcoin would need to be $900,000. So the price of each Bitcoin would need to become, $3.2 million. And the "market cap" of Bitcoin would thus be about $67.5 trillion USD.

That's the best LOL of this whole thread.

digibum · February 24, 2020

27 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

LOL, You are entitled to your opinion. Understandable that people are negative to opportunity when they don't understand. ????

Don't understand what? That Bitcoin has been less successful in it's first 10 years in terms of getting customers than PayPal was in its first 10 years?

The world's not moving towards Bitcoin. Apple sold almost twice as many iPhones last year than there are people who have ever owned Bitcoin.

digibum · February 24, 2020

36 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

I didn't told anyone to FOMO in, that's again your twisted mind who is seeing things.

You have been constantly saying that people should get in now before the price goes up.

37 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

By the way, where did I say the return would be astronomical ? I never mentioned any numbers and I am not expecting anything crazy, I am just confident it will perform well if not outperform anything else, not necessarily in a crazy way like it did in the past.

If people are not going to get astronomical returns, why would they put their money in a high-risk investment?

40 minutes ago, freeman01 said:

I don't want to be cocky but there is a bit of a difference with your numbers.

10k to 1M = 9900%

20k to 1M = 4900%

50k to 1M = 1900%

I was talking about the price you buy in at. Let's keep the "investment" at $10K a constant in all three scenarios.

$10K invested when Bitcoin is at $10K. Bitcoin goes to $1,000,000.

$10K invested when Bitcoin is at $20K. Bitcoin goes to $1,000,000.

$10K invested when Bitcoin is at $50K. Bitcoin goes to $1,000,000.

In scenario one, you buy 1 Bitcoin and your make $990,000 profit. But, with a great deal of risk.

In scenario two, you buy 1/2 Bitcoin and you make $490,000 profit. But, with a medium amount of risk.

In scenario three, you buy 20% of a Bitcoin and you make $190,000 profit. But with a minimal amount of risk.

Risk as described above is relative. Bitcoin will always be more risky than most other asset classes.

The increase in price is assuming that price movements are not pure speculation like the last bubble and are based on something more realistic, like increased adoption of Bitcoin by the public. So, the price increases are more of a function of new money entering the Bitcoin economy rather than speculators driving up the price.

In that scenario (if it could even exist), you're taking less and less risk as the price increases because Bitcoin is gaining wider and wider adoption.

Even a $190,000 profit on a $10,000 investment is pretty damn good. 1900% is a fantastic ROI.

But, what you're telling people is that, take a lot more risk, and shoot for the 9,900% ROI.

freeman01 · February 24, 2020

16 minutes ago, digibum said:

You have been constantly saying that people should get in now before the price goes up.

? constantly ? seriously ? where ? stop making up stuff in your mind maybe ?

18 minutes ago, digibum said:

If people are not going to get astronomical returns, why would they put their money in a high-risk investment?

well it's all relative, like from 2012 to today bitcoin did like 200,000%, I am not expecting that kind of crazy returns.

That said I expect much better returns than the SP500 for instance, I guess in comparison that would qualify as astronomical ...

27 minutes ago, digibum said:

But, what you're telling people is that, take a lot more risk, and shoot for the 9,900% ROI.

I do encourage people to put small amount yes.

Like I said in the beginning money one can afford to lose and forget for 5-10 years, certainly not life savings hoping to become super rich or something.

Again, what does losing 1000 would do to your life ? what if 10 years later they turn into 100,000 (assuming best case scenario)? that's how I would invest in something high risk, and no it's not gambling, it still requires to do research that would lead to believing in a price increase.

CharlieK · February 24, 2020

1 hour ago, digibum said:

Don't understand what? That Bitcoin has been less successful in it's first 10 years in terms of getting customers than PayPal was in its first 10 years?

The world's not moving towards Bitcoin. Apple sold almost twice as many iPhones last year than there are people who have ever owned Bitcoin.

Whatever you say. I'd rather hold BTC than use paypal (never have) and BTC is worth more than an iphone costs.

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