until when was Isaan part of Laos?

[melvinmelvin]

12 minutes ago, puchooay said:

As someone already mentioned, Wikipedia is not the best source of information for many subjects. Many pages will contain opinions or information that someone has learned 2nd, 3rd or even 4th+ hand. This can lead to misinterpretation and becomes a bit like Chinese whispers.

 

The quoted text above is, sadly, one of those instances.

 

agree,

when it comes to matters like in this thread I'd much prefer something a tad more scholarly than Wikipedia

[Nakmuay887]

On 2/26/2020 at 2:23 PM, Toosetinmyways said:

A map of 1400 shows the kingdom of Sukhothai all the way past Vientiane.

The first time I visited Sukothai I thought I was in Cambodia. You could pick old Town and drop it anywhere in Cambodia and it would fit perfectly 

[khunPer]

44 minutes ago, puchooay said:

As someone already mentioned, Wikipedia is not the best source of information for many subjects. Many pages will contain opinions or information that someone has learned 2nd, 3rd or even 4th+ hand. This can lead to misinterpretation and becomes a bit like Chinese whispers.

 

The quoted text above is, sadly, one of those instances.

Do you have sources to share with the right facts..?

[puchooay]

6 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Do you have sources to share with the right facts..?

Yes. Most of what I have written on this thread is down to personal experiences.

 

Having lived in the region for over 21 years I have gained a lot of information about the area and it's people.

 

Museums, libraries and even the history departments at schools can be great place to learn.

Edited March 1, 2020 by puchooay

[Denim]

36 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

agree,

when it comes to matters like in this thread I'd much prefer something a tad more scholarly than Wikipedia

 

Agreed. Before I can be persuaded of anything I want it confirmed by a long term Pattaya expat who can pud pasa Thai real geng.

 

Those geezers have their ears to the ground.

[puchooay]

5 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Agreed. Before I can be persuaded of anything I want it confirmed by a long term Pattaya expat who can pud pasa Thai real geng.

 

Those geezers have their ears to the ground.

Sorry to say you are in the wrong place.

 

You may wish to look here: https://forum.thaivisa.com/forum/29-pattaya-forum/

[khunPer]

50 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Yes. Most of what I have written on this thread is down to personal experiences.

 

Having lived in the region for over 21 years I have gained a lot of information about the area and it's people.

 

Museums, libraries and even the history departments at schools can be great place to learn.

Thanks for your reply, but without sources, I see it same-same, not different from "contain opinions or information that someone has learned 2nd, 3rd or even 4th+ hand".

The benefit with Wikipedia is that anybody can write – you don't need an account or to log in – so if something is wrong. someone will often correct it; especially in the English version with so many users. Furthermore, Wikipedia often includes at lot of reference sources...????

[puchooay]

18 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your reply, but without sources, I see it same-same, not different from "contain opinions or information that someone has learned 2nd, 3rd or even 4th+ hand".

The benefit with Wikipedia is that anybody can write – you don't need an account or to log in – so if something is wrong. someone will often correct it; especially in the English version with so many users. Furthermore, Wikipedia often includes at lot of reference sources...????

Museums, libraries and historical studies are not sources? Blimey.

 

As an example of the lack of trust in Wikipedia, did you know that students are not permitted to quote references from it in their studies?

Edited March 1, 2020 by puchooay

[drbeach]

On 2/29/2020 at 6:44 PM, puchooay said:

I would say that the translation of "muang" would be "town". "Mahanakorn" is city. Bangkok is the only place that is recognised as a city. Bangkok is not part of any province.

Nakorn is city - such as Nakorn Phanom, Nakorn Pathom, Nakorn Ratchasima and on train timetables, Nakorn Lampang.

 

Nakorns and even Muangs are very much cities.

 

Therefore, Buri Ram and Surin are both cities and provinces, since all provinces in Thailand have Muang districts that share the same name as the province.

[puchooay]

5 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Nakorn is city - such as Nakorn Phanom, Nakorn Pathom, Nakorn Ratchasima and on train timetables, Nakorn Lampang.

 

Nakorns and even Muangs are very much cities.

 

Therefore, Buri Ram and Surin are both cities and provinces, since all provinces in Thailand have Muang districts that share the same name as the province.

Not quite, although you will see these words translates as such.

 

I have asked many Thai language teachers about this as I was once also confused.

 

In true Thai language there is only one word for City and that is "Mahanakorn". The prefix of "Maha" meaning large or major.

 

Another example of this word would be in "Mahasamut". "Samut" being the word for sea and "Mahasamut" meaning ocean.

 

You could go on and add words such as "Buri", "Wiang", "Krung" or "Para" to the list but, at the end of the day, the true meaning of these words would be "town" rather than city.

 

This is the true translation, I hasten to add, and is not quite the same as general spoken language or distinction. A little like the old adage that cities in England could only be such if they had a Cathedral, which has long been not so.

[khunPer]

11 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Museums, libraries and historical studies are not sources? Blimey.

 

As an example of the lack of trust in Wikipedia, did you know that students are not permitted to quote references from it in their studies?

Without a reference it can become an opinion, or one's own first-hand study. 

 

Museums, Libraries and historical studies are often available online, otherwise quoted from book with page reference, and if available, an ISBN-code.

 

Students need to use the sources as reference in their studies, not Wikipedia. Same as it I write in another language Wikipedia, I cannot use "English Wikipedia" as source, but I can use the original reference as source.

 

Furthermore Google – including Google Books – is a great source to seek information and sources.

 

Sorry that I disagree with you, but Wiki is often a reliable reference. A study made a few years ago between Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica showed "equal amount of faults", and normally the latter is considered as excellent reference.

????

 

 

 

[khunPer]

On 2/29/2020 at 12:21 PM, melvinmelvin said:

maybe your (falang set?) is a bit off,

what I have learned; the origin is from farsi and refers to french people,

the word farangsi is still used in farsi today

Many sources I've read refers "farang" to originate from Khmer, as an expression for the French visitors – the first Caucasians in Cambodia – originally being called "farance", can probably also be spelled "farangsi".

 

"Falang" is the Lao-Isaan version, where R is pronounced as L.

[KhaoNiaw]

23 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Many sources I've read refers "farang" to originate from Khmer, as an expression for the French visitors – the first Caucasians in Cambodia – originally being called "farance", can probably also be spelled "farangsi".

 

"Falang" is the Lao-Isaan version, where R is pronounced as L.

It was in use long before the French arrived in the region.

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:40 AM, AjarnMartin said:

small avalanche... as I was led to believe, ‘falang’ actually comes from the history of French Indo China when the French (falang set?) colonised the region of SE Asia?. Since then, all white visitors are so named? Maybe this is too simplistic but it sounds reasonable? Of course, Thailand doesn’t recognise ANY colonisation, for whatever reason (Japanese in WWII?).

I think the word Firangee was borrowed from Persian formed as a parallel of the Arabic word  meaning the French or Franks (ancestors of the French people) which emerged during the medieval interactions between the Arabs and Arabic-speaking Muslims and the European Christians (Crusaders), who were almost all from France or the Frankish Kingdom. Although the word is usually translated as “foreigner,” it actually refers to European or white people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

[puchooay]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

Many sources I've read refers "farang" to originate from Khmer, as an expression for the French visitors – the first Caucasians in Cambodia – originally being called "farance", can probably also be spelled "farangsi".

 

"Falang" is the Lao-Isaan version, where R is pronounced as L.

That's funny and wrong. Issan Laos use the work "baksida".

 

Also, the word Farang outdated the French in Cambodia by many many years. Take a look at Wiki. You might find something there. 5555

[khunPer]

10 hours ago, puchooay said:

That's funny and wrong. Issan Laos use the work "baksida".

 

Also, the word Farang outdated the French in Cambodia by many many years. Take a look at Wiki. You might find something there. 5555

Thanks, I saw the Wiki-link – and please note that I said "Many sources I've read...", I didn't state anything...????

 

It's however a fact that the Khmer speaking population of Isaan have no problem with "R", whilst the Lao-speakers, which are the majority, pronounce "R" as "L" – please note that I'm not stating that the word "farang/falang" is part of Lao-language, or Isaan-Lao dialect, only talking about pronunciation, I said "the Lao-Isaan version".

[puchooay]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

Thanks, I saw the Wiki-link – and please note that I said "Many sources I've read...", I didn't state anything...????

 

It's however a fact that the Khmer speaking population of Isaan have no problem with "R", whilst the Lao-speakers, which are the majority, pronounce "R" as "L" – please note that I'm not stating that the word "farang/falang" is part of Lao-language, or Isaan-Lao dialect, only talking about pronunciation, I said "the Lao-Isaan version".

[DannyCarlton]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

please note that I'm not stating that the word "farang/falang" is part of Lao-language, or Isaan-Lao dialect,

In issan/Lao it's Baxi Da. The fruit is Maxi Da......just to add to the confusion.

[puchooay]

12 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

In issan/Lao it's Baxi Da. The fruit is Maxi Da......just to add to the confusion.

Aren't dialects great confusing?

 

The Issan Laos speakers that I have met refer to both the people and the fruit as Baksida. I've never heard Maksida. That is not to say that it is not used in provinces where I have never been. 

 

Khmer has is quirks too. The one that I always remember as confusing was during a trip to Sissaket and some areas of Surin that border Sissaket. I kept hearing Kliatbai. Turns out they were saying "I am hungry". In Buriram and the western side of Surin they would say Hellbai.