Can Sanders beat Trump? A growing number of Democratic voters say yes

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

Bernie's not going to get any of his headline policies through in their current form but that's not the reason one would vote or not vote for him. He's the only candidate besides Andrew Yang, who is no longer with us sadly, that has any kind of democracy reform policies. Policies that promote campaign finance reform, attack dark money, encourage rank choice voting, term limits and ending the revolving door between Congress and Special Interests who would lobby Congress. Nothing of any consequence to the electorate, as opposed to the corporations will ever get passed again until democratic reform takes place.

 

His M4A is DOA as healthcare insurers made 1,000% profit gains since the institution of Obamacare. His free college for all will turn into community college and trade schools, which is a better idea anyway. His loan forgiveness will turn into a law getting passed that allows discharge of loans through bankruptcy and sets say, a 10 year limit on loan repayment and then foregiveness of remainder. There will be a 5 year or so runup to a $15 minimim wage and most states will have arrived there already prior to that, simply due to market forces. The federal jobs guarantee goes into the ashbin of history as UBI usurps it in the next 5-10 years. But more than any of that is the democratic reforms platform. Without that, no matter who wins, Democrat or Republican, there will be widespread civil disobedience, even violence in the coming years.

I believe you are correct in your forecast of the outcome, but also there is something else.

 

Wealth has been stripped from blue collar workers and is now being stripped from the middle class, it is being funneled to the hyper wealthy.

 

The US economy will not remain stable without the working and the middle class having money to spend.

 

The stripping of incomes and wealth, and loading with debt will in itself topple the economy.

[WalkingOrders]

People in this thread are openly calling for the assassination of the President of the United States of America. 

 

People who will not even be voting in the American election.

 

 

[WalkingOrders]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I believe you are correct in your forecast of the outcome, but also there is something else.

 

Wealth has been stripped from blue collar workers and is now being stripped from the middle class, it is being funneled to the hyper wealthy.

 

The US economy will not remain stable without the working and the middle class having money to spend.

 

The stripping of incomes and wealth, and loading with debt will in itself topple the economy.

You might want to focus on your own stellar economy. How is doing?

 

 

[lannarebirth]

I think we've estabished that Sanders beats Trump, but can he beat the DNC if he fails toget a majority of delegates?  That's the big question. Biden should win SC, perhaps even handiliy. His donors, which had pulled back recently are feeling just a tiny bit of wind in their sails:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/27/pro-biden-pac-plans-super-tuesday-investment-as-former-vp-has-comeback.html

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said:

Such is your view. Thank you.

No, actually. It is the view of the electorate in Vermont who, since 1981, have consistently shown their trust in Sanders and his political policies.

 

Y'know, that's why the Vermont state motto is: "Freedom and Unity - and, oh yeah, we love us some Communism". ????

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

56 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

The stripping of incomes and wealth, and loading with debt will in itself topple the economy.

 

And you can thank Trump and the Republicans' most recent tax overhaul legislation for accelerating that trend, giving huge tax breaks to the largest corporations, and very little over time to the average American, except for further exploding the U.S. national debt. 

 

Which over time, if they remain in power, will end up being their rationale for future cuts to Social Security and Medicare benefits, which once again will hit average Americans where it hurts the most.

 

Trump's motto should be MABA - Make Americans Broke Again....

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[mikebike]

Quick primer for those still living in the last century:

 

American politics is no longer Dem v GOP. Since 2007 the dichotomy has been establishment v populist. 44 ran as a populist and beat establishment Hillary. Turns out though 44 filled his cabinet with establishment and corporatists and abandoned his populist base. 44's promise of hope and change in reality only worked for the "haves"; the "have-nots" were left behind as 44 bailed out the establishment and real wages and opportunity remained stagnant for workers.

 

45 ran as a populist in his primaries and v Hillary and won both. Very few were energized by an establishment candidate with more baggage than a fleet of 777s. At least 45 paid some lip-service to the working class. Unfortunately his accomplishments in office have only benefitted his class of Americans and regular folks can clearly see this.

 

2020 is set to be the year of populist left v populist right (unless the DNC place a pinky on the scale). None of the establishment/corporatist Dems challenging Sanders have a hope in Hades of unseating 45 with their "same-as-it-ever-was" platforms, 45 will steam-roll them. 

 

If Sanders can make it thru the convention it will be a most interesting autumn in American politics.

[riclag]

52 minutes ago, mikebike said:

No, actually. It is the view of the electorate in Vermont who, since 1981, have consistently shown their trust in Sanders and his political policies.

 

Y'know, that's why the Vermont state motto is: "Freedom and Unity - and, oh yeah, we love us some Communism". ????

yup, its true going to the kremlin while trying to persuade his constituency to be a sister city with the communist,Oh the double standard is sickening. And the taxpayer paid for those gifts,stunning!

"Earlier this year, two minutes of the long-lost videos went viral when a staffer at Chittenden County’s Channel 17 posted a compilation of the station’s archival footage online. The clip featured a shirtless Sanders and other Americans singing “This Land Is Your Land” to their hosts after relaxing in a sauna. A few minutes later, Sanders doled out the gifts to his Russian friends with a towel wrapped around his waist".

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/17/bernie-sanders-mystery-soviet-video-revealed-1330347

 

I grew up with the threat of  a nuke holocaust, thanks to the russians and the media.Then came along candidate Trump echoing, is it bad to get along with russia!

 

Oh the hypocrisy !

Edited February 28, 2020 by riclag

[Berkshire]

45 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

And you can thank Trump and the Republicans' most recent tax overhaul legislation for accelerating that trend, giving huge tax breaks to the largest corporations, and very little over time to the average American, except for further exploding the U.S. national debt. 

 

Which over time, if they remain in power, will end up being their rationale for future cuts to Social Security and Medicare benefits, which once again will hit average Americans where it hurts the most.

 

Trump's motto should be MABA - Make Americans Broke Again....

 

Exactly.  This was Paul Ryan's plan all along.  He knew no one had the stomach to do entitlement reform, so he pushed through these massive tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy before he retired, knowing full well it would balloon the deficit.  And it sure did.  The only way to reduce the deficit now is to cut into SS/medicare benefits.  This is how the Republican Congress has masterfully transferred wealth from the middle class to the upper class.  They just need to stay in power to finish the job.   

[realenglish1]

Here is why Sanders will not win the Presidency. He supports Cuba. He has to win Florida to win the White House He has <deleted> off all the Cuban Americans in Florida along with Hispanics across the the United States. They are not going to vote for him.

On top of that You absolutely need the independents to win. The vast majority of them are middle of the road Sanders cannot win their vote.

You also have to consider middle of the road Democrats They hate is policies. He is doomed at a very bad choice if he gets the nomination

[riclag]

On his trip to communist soviet russia!

Bernie dances with the Bolsheviks!

"Later, he tells a Russian man, “I’m not very happy about this, but there are not many people in the state of Vermont who speak Russian. In fact, one of the things that we want to do is to see if we can develop a Russian studies program in our high school.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/17/bernie-sanders-mystery-soviet-video-revealed-1330347

 

 

What is this the democratic socialist non revolutionary way of indoctrination ,because that's the difference between a commie and a dem socialist, according to some people.

https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by riclag

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Yeap.  And unfortunately, it will be effective.  Bernie should never have labeled himself a Democratic Socialist.  Might as well call yourself a God-hating atheist or a Nazi...although I wonder if a socialist is even worse. 

 

If FDR was running for president this year, Trump and his crazies would be labeling him a communist and socialist.... And in today's America, FDR probably would lose!

 

[riclag]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

If FDR was running for president this year, Trump and his crazies would be labeling him a communist and socialist.... And in today's America, FDR probably would lose!

 

More insults "crazies". Don't know what country your from or how old you are ! But sanders is more of a threat then your boogieman

Edited February 28, 2020 by riclag

[riclag]

24 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Yeap.  And unfortunately, it will be effective.  Bernie should never have labeled himself a Democratic Socialist.  It's like labeling yourself a God-hating atheist or a Nazi...although I wonder if a socialist is even worse. 

From what I'm reading the difference between communism and dem soc are commie leaders elect other leaders and are more revolutionist(forcing and mandating polices) as opposed to dem soc,they have  democratically elected leaders with democratically voted on policies.

But your right sanders will have  many dems,mods and gop at his throat. And rightfully so.

 

It all sounds wonderful and bonding I think thats why sanders stuck with the dem soc name,non confrontational ,everyone likes the word "democratic".

https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences

Edited February 28, 2020 by riclag

[jcsmith]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

facts from  my sources while you show insults!

I'm a swing voter I could care less about republicans .I hate communism ! 

Bernie isn't a communist. But seriously what are we back in the 60s-80s? Return to the cold war? Is McCarthyism cool again? 

 

The fact of the matter is that Bernie's brand of socialism has more in common with Europe today than it does to communism. I do have concern though that if he is the candidate Fox News is going to do a number on all their viewers to the extent that communism will be the new birtherism.

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

On his trip to communist soviet russia!

Bernie dances with the Bolsheviks!

"Later, he tells a Russian man, “I’m not very happy about this, but there are not many people in the state of Vermont who speak Russian. In fact, one of the things that we want to do is to see if we can develop a Russian studies program in our high school.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/17/bernie-sanders-mystery-soviet-video-revealed-1330347

 

 

What is this the democratic socialist non revolutionary way of indoctrination ,because that's the difference between a commie and a dem socialist, according to some people.

https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences

 

 

 

Apparently u r not a traveller... I have danced with people the world over... never stopped to question their political ideologies... in the (editted) words of the Violent Femmes: Dance Motherfrigger Dance.

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

Yeap.  And unfortunately, it will be effective.  Bernie should never have labeled himself a Democratic Socialist.  It's like labeling yourself a God-hating atheist or a Nazi...although I wonder if a socialist is even worse. 

Only effective with peeps our age and older... dont blink cause the times they are a changing... anyone under 40 dowsnt give a <deleted> about cold war labels.

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

They tried all that and more last time- so how did that work out?

Last time they had not seen his performance. 

[riclag]

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

Apparently u r not a traveller... I have danced with people the world over... never stopped to question their political ideologies... in the (editted) words of the Violent Femmes: Dance Motherfrigger Dance.

If only the dem stratigist and clinton supporter james carville didn't call sanders a commie ,I would recognize him as just somebody who  danced with the Bolsheviks ! A regular private citizen no problem, but sanders was a politician. 

"we can break down the barriers and stereotypes which exist between the Soviet Union and the United States.”

 

Your forgetting its not fashionable to cohabitate  with Russians, or want to get along with that country before and now . That's all I heard for 4 years ,never mind giving them gifts,dancing with them and wanting to sister up cities with them! Can't get anymore communistic then that imop.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/17/bernie-sanders-mystery-soviet-video-revealed-1330347

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/483054-carville-fires-back-at-sanders-for-hack-slam-at-least-im-not-a-communist

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by riclag

[MisterTee]

8 hours ago, DeaconJohn said:

The last time a socialist was elected president it resulted in an unnecessary war followed by the whole of Eastern Europe being swallowed up by the Soviet Union.

Communism is always with us in one form or another.  The latest iteration is this old Marxist knucklehead who never outgrew his boyhood in Brooklyn.

It looks like history repeating itself as farce.

 

That's an exceptionally good post.

Perceptive and concise.

Thanks.

Edited February 28, 2020 by MisterTee

[T Lee]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

facts from  my sources while you show insults!

I'm a swing voter I could care less about republicans .I hate communism ! 

If you hate communism, you probably will want to abandon your love of Trump.  He´s the Russian´s totally owned and totally obedient punk.

[Gumballl]

12 minutes ago, T Lee said:

If you hate communism, you probably will want to abandon your love of Trump.  He´s the Russian´s totally owned and totally obedient punk.

Russia is no longer a communist country. Have you been living under a rock for the last 30 years?

[lannarebirth]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

facts from  my sources while you show insults!

I'm a swing voter I could care less about republicans .I hate communism ! 

 

It is certainly ironic that the useful idiot in this case seems to be the virulent anti communist.

[WalkingOrders]

6 hours ago, mikebike said:

No, actually. It is the view of the electorate in Vermont who, since 1981, have consistently shown their trust in Sanders and his political policies.

 

Y'know, that's why the Vermont state motto is: "Freedom and Unity - and, oh yeah, we love us some Communism". ????

Good for you......you can keep him. 

 

I notice Comrade that Vermont has 1.7 percent hispanic population, and 1.2 percent african american. In fact you are 93.4 white, probably the most racially white state in the Union. I suppose this must be why you like to point your fingers at the rest of us and call us racist. The only people you see that aren't white are in television shows.

 

You never went to a highschool inundated with Mexican, or central American gangs. Never lost a construction job to someone running a gang of illegals at half rate. Never had your house graffitied with Spanish gang slogans, never had to learn two languages in your own neighborhood, never had to worry about your kids playing in your own front yard. No I suppose not! Yeah, keep him, but call his communist, open border loving, illegal alien ass home from the US Senate please!!!!

[WalkingOrders]

5 hours ago, mikebike said:

Quick primer for those still living in the last century:

 

American politics is no longer Dem v GOP. Since 2007 the dichotomy has been establishment v populist. 44 ran as a populist and beat establishment Hillary. Turns out though 44 filled his cabinet with establishment and corporatists and abandoned his populist base. 44's promise of hope and change in reality only worked for the "haves"; the "have-nots" were left behind as 44 bailed out the establishment and real wages and opportunity remained stagnant for workers.

 

45 ran as a populist in his primaries and v Hillary and won both. Very few were energized by an establishment candidate with more baggage than a fleet of 777s. At least 45 paid some lip-service to the working class. Unfortunately his accomplishments in office have only benefitted his class of Americans and regular folks can clearly see this.

 

2020 is set to be the year of populist left v populist right (unless the DNC place a pinky on the scale). None of the establishment/corporatist Dems challenging Sanders have a hope in Hades of unseating 45 with their "same-as-it-ever-was" platforms, 45 will steam-roll them. 

 

If Sanders can make it thru the convention it will be a most interesting autumn in American politics.

Populist is a big broad word that indicates an appeal to a disgruntled mass and bipassing traditional power structures, but Hugo Chavez was a populist, as Trump, same as Sanders. But populism is not a program. 

 

In the USA, I dont think we want a massive restructuring of the American economy, to include nationalizations, at a pricetag and fallout, both unknown. Nothing is more cause for concern, short of war. Sanders is scary guy to many, including me. 

[WalkingOrders]

5 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Yeap.  And unfortunately, it will be effective.  Bernie should never have labeled himself a Democratic Socialist.  It's like labeling yourself a God-hating atheist or a Nazi...although I wonder if a socialist is even worse. 

How do I explain this? Its not just that he labels himself, a socialist, democratic socialist, or as I think of him a Trotskyite. Its more then that, he can call himself a democrat, it does not matter. His life is a record of his beliefs, in word and deed, and recorded in all mediums. All can see and judge.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Lots of labeling going on here, as befits derisive Republican electioneering strategy under Trump. Crazy Bernie, Sleepy Joe, Pocahontas, Fake News, Far Left, etc etc...

 

Rather than calling someone a Trotskyite (which I'm pretty sure has absolutely no basis in fact based on Sanders's record), why not look at the things he's actually proposed as a presidential candidate and judge him on whether they'd be good or not good for America.

 

But no, none of the Trump fans here actually want to talk about the issues that matter to Americans, because both they and Trump have a record of nothing to talk about.

[WalkingOrders]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Lots of labeling going on here, as befits derisive Republican electioneering strategy under Trump. Crazy Bernie, Sleepy Joe, Pocahontas, Fake News, Far Left, etc etc...

 

Rather than calling someone a Trotskyite (which I'm pretty sure has absolutely no basis in fact based on Sanders's record), why not look at the things he's actually proposed as a presidential candidate and judge him on whether they'd be good or not good for America.

 

But no, none of the Trump fans here actually want to talk about the issues that matter to Americans, because both they and Trump have a record of nothing to talk about.

labels? As I said, his life is public record!

[jcsmith]

32 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

In the USA, I dont think we want a massive restructuring of the American economy, to include nationalizations, at a pricetag and fallout, both unknown. Nothing is more cause for concern, short of war. Sanders is scary guy to many, including me. 

So here's an easy question for you. What exactly do you think Bernie is going to do that is a massive restructuring of the American economy? 

He's going to raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans and put a tax on stock trading. Most Americans aren't going to see any significant tax raises, and those who do will be getting full health insurance if he has his way. The medical industry would receive a much needed upgrade. Last I checked the U.S. was I believe 36th ranked in health coverage by the World Health Organization. We pay more for worst coverage. 

Let's not pretend that higher taxes on the wealthy are something from the distant future. They are not. But what has happened in the past forty years is that the rich have gotten richer and everyone else has flatlined. Every republican president we here about trickle down economics and tax cuts. They happen, and what is the result? Companies upping their profits, and everyone else seeing little to no difference. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 hours ago, riclag said:

I could care less about republicans .I hate communism !

 

And just where do you find the communism you hate these days?

 

https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-10/can-you-name-five-remaining-communist-countries-world

 

the last five communist countries in the world are:

• People's Republic of China
• Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea)
• Socialist Republic of Vietnam
• Lao People's Democratic Republic (Laos)
• Republic of Cuba

 

Quote

 

While China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba officially claim to be communist states, the country that adheres most strictly to communist principles, according to Oxford University scholar Robert Service, is North Korea. He should know, he wrote the book on it — Comrades! A History of World Communism.

 

Today, he says, Karl Marx would hardly recognize his manifesto. "In it's original form, it's long been dead," said Service.

 

 

So if you have a hard on for all those "real" bad communists in North Korea, I guess we can find common ground on that!  It was, to say the least, disgusting and revolting to see faux President Trump slobbering all over Kim and saying he "fell in love" with that murderous dictator.