float valves

[albertik]

Does anybody know if it is possible to replace the ball cock in my 1500 liter water storage tank with a float type On/Off valve? My goal is to allow for more water usage before my supply pump automatically starts to refill the storage tank.  Currently the ball cock has a limited zone and so my supply pump refills the storage tank every time a small amount of water is used. I am hoping that a separate float valve might allow for more water to be dispensed prior to the supply pump sensor calling for a refill.  I do not have an electrical sensing pump but rather a pressure sensor. 

Thanks for your input.

[Artisi]

Yes, convert to an on/off float level, easy job for your local pump guy / electrician / handy man - - retain the ball cock to stop over filling the tank 

[albertik]

20 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Yes, convert to an on/off float level, easy job for your local pump guy / electrician / handy man - - retain the ball cock to stop over filling the tank 

Thanks for your input. I guess my confusion is: how to connect the float valve in conjunction with the ballcock so that water is called for when the float valve calls for it as opposed to when the ballcock calls for it. Currently, as soon as the water level drops, the pump senses the pressure drop due to ballcock position. In other words, I need the float valve to activate the pump and then the ballcock to shut the pump off. Trying to convey this to my Thai repair guy when I don't speak Thai is difficult.

Again, thank-you.

Edited March 1, 2020 by albertik

[sometimewoodworker]

You can only do what you want using a single pressure switched pump by setting the electrical float switch to turn the power to the pump on/off.

 

We have a ball valve that controls the village water and a float valve that switches a very basic pump that has no controls (power on it pumps until power off)

[Crossy]

Easiest solution would be to supply your pump power via a float switch.

 

The two float ones allow a big range between on and off.

 

 

 

 

[VocalNeal]

You won't use any more or less water your way. The idea of the tank is storage in case of supply failure . If you draw down the tank before the refill pump starts then you will have less backup.

[cornishcarlos]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You can only do what you want using a single pressure switched pump by setting the electrical float switch to turn the power to the pump on/off.

 

We have a ball valve that controls the village water and a float valve that switches a very basic pump that has no controls (power on it pumps until power off)

 

W t f is going on in that photo ????

[sometimewoodworker]

6 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

W t f is going on in that photo ????

Construction!!!

 

it may not be pretty but once finished it’s totally functional and needs no maintenance. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[albertik]

Thanks to all for their input.  I don't want to run a dedicated electrical circuit to control the float valves. I have a problem with the PVC (yellow) conduit running all around the yard. What I do now is control the storage supply tank volume via an electrical circuit. This circuit is dedicated to supply electricity to the below ground supply which in turn supplies the storage tank.  The storage tank is not located near the supply pump so electrically it is isolated from the supply. The electrically controlled pump leading to the house supply is downstream from the storage tank. I do realize this is a bit confusing and for that I apologize.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, albertik said:

Thanks to all for their input.  I don't want to run a dedicated electrical circuit to control the float valves. I have a problem with the PVC (yellow) conduit running all around the yard. What I do now is control the storage supply tank volume via an electrical circuit. This circuit is dedicated to supply electricity to the below ground supply which in turn supplies the storage tank.  The storage tank is not located near the supply pump so electrically it is isolated from the supply. The electrically controlled pump leading to the house supply is downstream from the storage tank. I do realize this is a bit confusing and for that I apologize.

No need to apologise, but every need to draw out what you mean as currently I certainly don’t understand your setup. And you are confused as there is no float valve. 
 

As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Edited March 1, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[longball53098]

I have a adjustable float valve called a differential valve. I bought it via a seller in Malaysia but made by a comapny in New Zealand. Jobe Valves works great and no electrics involved. 

 

https://www.jobevalves.com/products/product/vortex-differential

[Artisi]

To many unknowns to give any meaningful feedback. 

What type / brand of pump? 

Why would the tank inlet be controlling the pump stop /start? 

What controls the pump delivery pressure into the house (assume its a house pump) 

One of life's mysteries and without a crystal ball it's  difficult to understand. 

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, longball53098 said:

I have a adjustable float valve called a differential valve. I bought it via a seller in Malaysia but made by a comapny in New Zealand. Jobe Valves works great and no electrics involved. 

 

https://www.jobevalves.com/products/product/vortex-differential

Can't see any useful use on a domestic water tank over the use of a conventional ball valve. 

 

In an industrial situation where you need to maintain a fairly constant level - OK, nice simple arrangement. 

[albertik]

54 minutes ago, Artisi said:

To many unknowns to give any meaningful feedback. 

What type / brand of pump? 

Why would the tank inlet be controlling the pump stop /start? 

What controls the pump delivery pressure into the house (assume its a house pump) 

One of life's mysteries and without a crystal ball it's  difficult to understand. 

O.K.  I actually have 2 pumps.

Pump #1 is used to draw water from an underground supply. It is controlled electrically and delivers water to a 1500 liter holding tank.  As the pump senses a pressure drop (caused by the ballcock opening in the holding tank) it then sends the underground water supply to the holding tank until it is filled and the ballcock closes and pump#1 shuts off.  

Water delivery to the house is supplied by  pump #2  located at the outlet side of the 1500 liter supply tank. It is also and electrically operated (Hitachi) pump. 

My dilemma is that  every centimeter of water used and drawn from the holding tank causes the ballcock to open which sends a signal to pump #1 to resupply the holding tank. 

I am trying to devise a system that will avoid drawing water from (cycling ) pump #1 every time a small amount of water is used.

I am thinking a float type valve will help to avoid constant cycling of pump #1, but am unsure as to how to design the system to incorporate both the ballcock (helping to prevent overflow) and yet using the float valve to help stop the sensitive cycling of pump #1.

[mahjongguy]

I don't think you meant to say that pump #1 is controlled electrically, because then you say it runs when the output back pressure drops due to water leaving the tank.

 

If you installed any type of differential switch in the tank, you could wire those contacts over to pump #1.

 

Better if you could replace the float valve in the tank with a model that allows some degree of differential. Is there such a thing?

[CanadaSam]

22 hours ago, albertik said:

Trying to convey this to my Thai repair guy when I don't speak Thai is difficult.

 

Google Translate is your friend!

 

Simply print out a Thai translation of exactly what you want and hand it to the plumber.

 

[albertik]

2 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

I don't think you meant to say that pump #1 is controlled electrically, because then you say it runs when the output back pressure drops due to water leaving the tank.

 

If you installed any type of differential switch in the tank, you could wire those contacts over to pump #1.

 

Better if you could replace the float valve in the tank with a model that allows some degree of differential. Is there such a thing?

Yeah, this is why it is difficult for me to describe. The pump #1 is an electric pump but it cycles on/off sensing  a pressure difference at the holding tank via the opening or closing of the ballcock valve. Your last idea Re: allowing some degree of differential would perhaps fill the bill, but I, like you, am not aware of such a thing.

[albertik]

2 hours ago, CanadaSam said:

 

Google Translate is your friend!

 

Simply print out a Thai translation of exactly what you want and hand it to the plumber.

 

As you may have gathered, it is hard enough for me to explain in English, much less for a translation I fear.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, albertik said:

O.K.  I actually have 2 pumps.

Pump #1 is used to draw water from an underground supply. It is controlled electrically and delivers water to a 1500 liter holding tank.  As the pump senses a pressure drop (caused by the ballcock opening in the holding tank) it then sends the underground water supply to the holding tank until it is filled and the ballcock closes and pump#1 shuts off.  

Water delivery to the house is supplied by  pump #2  located at the outlet side of the 1500 liter supply tank. It is also and electrically operated (Hitachi) pump. 

My dilemma is that  every centimeter of water used and drawn from the holding tank causes the ballcock to open which sends a signal to pump #1 to resupply the holding tank. 

I am trying to devise a system that will avoid drawing water from (cycling ) pump #1 every time a small amount of water is used.

I am thinking a float type valve will help to avoid constant cycling of pump #1, but am unsure as to how to design the system to incorporate both the ballcock (helping to prevent overflow) and yet using the float valve to help stop the sensitive cycling of pump #1.

What you have is remarkably similar to my setup. 
 

The primary difference is that (for the equipment available in Thailand) you have used a pump trigger mechanism, pressure, that is not suitable for the job. You could try to get the valve shown above, but my guess is that it will not be easy to find not will it be inexpensive, if you could it will work.

 

As I have said before you need to control the power to the pump Bypassing it’s pressure sensor using the switch showing above or here

 

2 hours ago, albertik said:

I am thinking a float type valve will help to avoid constant cycling of pump #1, but am unsure as to how to design the system to incorporate both the ballcock (helping to prevent overflow) and yet using the float valve to help stop the sensitive cycling of pump #1.

Our system does exactly that (you don’t need it but it does no harm) because I have the village water feeding both the storage tanks and roof tank.

 

the village water level in the ready use tank is set to a high level and the ball valve controls that.

 

From time to time the village water is cut at that time the once the level in roof tank drops low enough to trigger the somic switch it starts the pump shown above pumping from my storage tanks into the roof tank. The somic upper level point cuts off when the water level is lower than the ball valve cutoff point, this means that the ball valve is always wide open when the domestic pump is running.

 

If the village water has enough pressure to fill the roof tank our low level pump never kicks in.

[albertik]

Mr. Woodworker, Jerome..... That device you have pictured seems like it would do the job, however, like you said, hard to find. I do have a solenoid type electrical switch for controlling a pump but that pump was a whole different type. That pump was controlled solely via the aforementioned solenoid switch. It had no pressure sensor: only on/off depending on the position of the float valve. And the pump was physically located at the same place as the holding tank.

If I had electrical service from the tank to the pump it would work, however, my supply pump is located too far away for me to run electric. I really don't want any Thai type electrical installation if I can avoid it.

Anyway I do appreciate your input.  Thank-you.

Edited March 2, 2020 by albertik

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, albertik said:

O.K.  I actually have 2 pumps.

Pump #1 is used to draw water from an underground supply. It is controlled electrically and delivers water to a 1500 liter holding tank.  As the pump senses a pressure drop (caused by the ballcock opening in the holding tank) it then sends the underground water supply to the holding tank until it is filled and the ballcock closes and pump#1 shuts off.  

Water delivery to the house is supplied by  pump #2  located at the outlet side of the 1500 liter supply tank. It is also and electrically operated (Hitachi) pump. 

My dilemma is that  every centimeter of water used and drawn from the holding tank causes the ballcock to open which sends a signal to pump #1 to resupply the holding tank. 

I am trying to devise a system that will avoid drawing water from (cycling ) pump #1 every time a small amount of water is used.

I am thinking a float type valve will help to avoid constant cycling of pump #1, but am unsure as to how to design the system to incorporate both the ballcock (helping to prevent overflow) and yet using the float valve to help stop the sensitive cycling of pump #1.

Amazing when the full story is supplied. 

Does the well pump switch on /off due to the pressure against the ballcock or electrically? 

[albertik]

2 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Amazing when the full story is supplied. 

Does the well pump switch on /off due to the pressure against the ballcock or electrically? 

The well pump is an electrically operated pump which has a pressure switch that is activated according to the position of the ballcock.  Water level drops/ ballcock opens/ pump senses a pressure drop and pump cycles on to supply more water to the tank.

[sometimewoodworker]

29 minutes ago, albertik said:

Mr. Woodworker, Jerome..... That device you have pictured seems like it would do the job,

I did not post the picture of the mechanical device.

 

30 minutes ago, albertik said:

like you said, hard to find.

Probably impossible in Thailand for a reasonable price.

 

32 minutes ago, albertik said:

I do have a solenoid type electrical switch for controlling a pump but that pump was a whole different type. That pump was controlled solely via the aforementioned solenoid switch. It had no pressure sensor: only on/off depending on the position of the float valve. And the pump was physically located at the same place as the holding tank

That is exactly what you need and the same as I have.

 

33 minutes ago, albertik said:

If I had electrical service from the tank to the pump it would work, however, my supply pump is located too far away for me to run electric.

Why? How many kilometres away is it? ???? 

 

you do not have to supply all the power for the holding tank pump from the float switch in your storage tank. You need just enough to trigger a contactor (relay) so 0.5mm² is plenty big enough.

37 minutes ago, albertik said:

I really don't want any Thai type electrical installation if I can avoid it.

It isn’t rocket science, if you’re slightly competent you can do it yourself.

 

I preferred to pay the electrician as I didn’t want to crawl around the ceiling and roof of my house 

[Artisi]

Assume you are saying there is no power available at the well pump tank, is that correct? 

 

[Artisi]

As sketch of the system, showing where the pumps are in relation to each other, where there is power etc. 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, CanadaSam said:

On 3/1/2020 at 12:20 PM, albertik said:

ying to convey this to my Thai repair guy when I don't speak Thai is difficult.

 

Google Translate is your friend!

 

Simply print out a Thai translation of exactly what you want and hand it to the plumber.

If you read the interesting versions of a single Thai line of script that I posted Here you would understand why that idea could produce almost anything from plumbing work to a new recipe for noodle soup.

 

Google is only your friend if you enjoy practical jokes from your friends. 

[CanadaSam]

Woodworker, I have noted that Google Translate does produce odd results sometimes.

 

The trick is, to change the languages using the arrows, so you can re-translate it back to English, and then clearly see the mistakes, and fix them.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

As sketch of the system, showing where the pumps are in relation to each other, where there is power etc. 

 

That is what I asked for in post #10, due to the problems @albertik has in translating his native language into English it’s likely to give an idea of better or correct suggestions.

[sometimewoodworker]

9 minutes ago, CanadaSam said:

Woodworker, I have noted that Google Translate does produce odd results sometimes.

 

The trick is, to change the languages using the arrows, so you can re-translate it back to English, and then clearly see the mistakes, and fix them.

Having spent a considerable number of years doing things similar to that in a language that is far less ambiguous than Thai I can confidently say your idea does not produce the results you want, unless you get really lucky.

 

The only way you can be sure is if your Thai and English are of the level where you don’t need to use the app and can check the translations yourself. You also need someone who is competent to understand good technical Thai.

Edited March 2, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[albertik]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

Assume you are saying there is no power available at the well pump tank, is that correct? 

 

No, that is not correct. 

 

3 hours ago, albertik said:

The well pump is an electrically operated pump which has a pressure switch that is activated according to the position of the ballcock.  Water level drops/ ballcock opens/ pump senses a pressure drop and pump cycles on to supply more water to the tank.