Britain tells the EU: we shall not sell out our fishermen

[Logosone]

Yes, it's brilliant isnt it?

 

The EU will accept it will not get 35% of fish from "British" waters if the UK compromises on another important point for the EU.

 

Boris can go to the papers and scream "We showed the Euros, BRITISH fish is for the BRITISH!" and then turn around betray the British fishermen by not getting free EU access to British fish products, like the British fish industry was demanding.

 

The EU can turn around and wave whatever it got in return for compromising on the fish access.

 

Meanwhile the UK fish industry desperately tries to make up the loss of the 66% share EU market in fish by selling fish unsuccessfully to New Zealand.  The British fish industry enters terminal decline.

 

Well done Brexiteers, another glorious triumph of sovereignty over common sense.

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Well if that's the case we will move to WTO terms and no deal problem solved

France has said we will not be selling our fish to the EU if there is no deal.

Two thirds of the fishing industry will disappear overnight.

A small price to pay for blue passports. 

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

France has said we will not be selling our fish to the EU if there is no deal.

Two thirds of the fishing industry will disappear overnight.

A small price to pay for blue passports. 

No France has said No deal if they don't get the same access to the UK fishing ground as they currently have

[Logosone]

Well that's exactly the point, if you go to WTO terms the British fishermen lose what they wanted the UK government to ensure: Free access to EU markets.

 

Selling fish to the EU will be more expensive, market share and profits would fall, the British fish industry, currently only kept alive by Europeans willing to buy their fish (the British don't) will die a miserable death.

 

Why do you think the UK is negotiating to retain free acess? Because it doesn't need it? Okay, you make your own fantasy world, must be fun.

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No France has said No deal if they don't get the same access to the UK fishing ground as they currently have

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1249333/France-EU-Amelie-de-Montchalin-UK-trade-deal-warning-fisheries-Boris-Johnson-latest

 

And its from the Express not the Guardian.

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Well that's exactly the point, if you go to WTO terms the British fishermen lose what they wanted the UK government to ensure: Free access to EU markets.

 

Selling fish to the EU will be more expensive, market share and profits would fall, the British fish industry, currently only kept alive by Europeans willing to buy their fish (the British don't) will die a miserable death.

 

Why do you think the UK is negotiating to retain free acess? Because it doesn't need it? Okay, you make your own fantasy world, must be fun.

Access to each other’s markets

The UK is seeking tariff-free access to the EU market and for the EU to have tariff free access to the UK market

no adds on, no side deals merged into the main trade agreement

[Logosone]

Article updated 12 hours ago:

 

Barnier warns of ‘serious divergences’ between EU, Britain after first round of trade talks

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-between-eu-britain-after-first/

 

Doesn't sound like hes in any mood to compromise.

 

Here's why, he holds all the cards:

 

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1249333/France-EU-Amelie-de-Montchalin-UK-trade-deal-warning-fisheries-Boris-Johnson-latest

 

And its from the Express not the Guardian.

Yes that is correct the French want to retain the same access they currently have

[Logosone]

Just now, vinny41 said:

Yes that is correct the French want to retain the same access they currently have

Yes, and the British fisheries industry has been pushing the UK government to ensure free access to EU markets.

 

The British banking industry has been imploring the UK government to get equivalence accepted as soon as possible!

 

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Yes that is correct the French want to retain the same access they currently have

So I suspect we will end up with a statue quo where EU fishermen retain access and the UK can sell fish to the EU.

Thats not what I remember being promised to UK fishermen was it?

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Article updated 12 hours ago:

 

Barnier warns of ‘serious divergences’ between EU, Britain after first round of trade talks

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-between-eu-britain-after-first/

 

Doesn't sound like hes in any mood to compromise.

 

Here's why, he holds all the cards:

 

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start

No he doesn't as you remember Macron has stated that Boris holds the fishing card

The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/05/michel-barnier-warns-serious-differences-brexit-trade-deal/

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

So I suspect we will end up with a statue quo where EU fishermen retain access and the UK can sell fish to the EU.

Thats not what I remember being promised to UK fishermen was it?

Dont think so

The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement. 

[Logosone]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No he doesn't as you remember Macron has stated that Boris holds the fishing card

The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/05/michel-barnier-warns-serious-differences-brexit-trade-deal/

Yes, Barnier very much holds the cards. Boris may hold a small fishing card, but Barnier holds the equivalence of banking rules card. Which rather trumps the fishing card many times over.

 

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start

 

“This is serious, I say this is grave, because if the United Kingdom’s position does not move it will have an immediate and concrete effect on the level of ambition of our cooperation,” he said.

 

On fishing rights, Barnier said the UK’s proposal to negotiate the level of catches in British waters on an annual basis, similar to an agreement with Norway, was impractical. He noted that the EU and Norway negotiated over five species of fish while there were 100 shared stocks in European and British seas.

Barnier said the British government was further insisting that fisheries should be outside the main trade deal. “An economic agreement with the UK will have to include a balanced agreement on fisheries,” he insisted.

A UK government source described the EU’s negotiating ask as being “the status quo”. “

 

Does not sound like Barnier is about to compromise, lol.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/05/barnier-warns-of-grave-differences-between-eu-and-uk-in-trade-talks

[Logosone]

9 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Dont think so

The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement. 

No he didn't. 

 

I don't think you understood what was said.

 

Barnier merely said he would be prepared to negotiate the fish quota, he certainly will insist that European boats will continue to have access to UK waters. It's merely the terms he is prepared to negotiate, ie the percentages of catch for each fish. Not the principle of European access.

 

You really need to understand the sources you post.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Yes, Barnier very much holds the cards. Boris may hold a small fishing card, but Barnier holds the equivalence of banking rules card. Which rather trumps the fishing card many times over.

 

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/eu-s-barnier-warns-of-serious-divergences-as-u-k-talks-start

 

“This is serious, I say this is grave, because if the United Kingdom’s position does not move it will have an immediate and concrete effect on the level of ambition of our cooperation,” he said.

 

On fishing rights, Barnier said the UK’s proposal to negotiate the level of catches in British waters on an annual basis, similar to an agreement with Norway, was impractical. He noted that the EU and Norway negotiated over five species of fish while there were 100 shared stocks in European and British seas.

Barnier said the British government was further insisting that fisheries should be outside the main trade deal. “An economic agreement with the UK will have to include a balanced agreement on fisheries,” he insisted.

A UK government source described the EU’s negotiating ask as being “the status quo”. “

 

Does not sound like Barnier is about to compromise, lol.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/05/barnier-warns-of-grave-differences-between-eu-and-uk-in-trade-talks

Bloomberg didn't they fund the remain campaign for a cool £250,000 

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

No he didn't. 

 

I don't think you understood what was said.

 

Barnier merely said he would be prepared to negotiate the fish quota, he certainly will insist that European boats will continue to have access to UK waters. It's merely the terms he is prepared to negotiate, ie the percentages of catch for each fish. Not the principle of European access.

 

You really need to understand the sources you post.

Thanks I do understand the sources that I post I expect there will be a deal on fishing but on the basis of reduce quota or no deal no access

What there wouldn't be is the current status quo which is what the French and other Fishing EU countries are currently demanding

[Logosone]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Bloomberg didn't they fund the remain campaign for a cool £250,000 

 

Yes and Sainsburys funded it with 3.9 million USD,  I know, I know, you're never shopping at Sainsbury's AGAIN!

 

Anyway, what are Bloomberg saying in that article? That Barnier is holding off on granting the UK banks equivalency as to financial rules.

 

Would you agree that this is a somewhat more important issue to the UK, financial services, than fisheries?

[Logosone]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Thanks I do understand the sources that I post I expect there will be a deal on fishing but on the basis of reduce quota or no deal no access

What there wouldn't be is the current status quo which is what the French and other Fishing EU countries are currently demanding

 

Of course there won't be a status quo, rather the whole point of the negotiation!

 

But very clearly Barnier will continue to ask for European boats to fish in UK waters. So that will stay the same. Only the percentage of fish quotas will change.

 

So your much vaunted 'Barnier hints he will compromise on fish access' is a bit of a red herring, isn't it? He's not compromising on access to fish in principle, merely hinting he'd be prepared to look at the quotas. But not on the terms the UK wants, on his own terms.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Logosone

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Yes and Sainsburys funded it with 3.9 million USD,  I know, I know, you're never shopping at Sainsbury's AGAIN!

 

Anyway, what are Bloomberg saying in that article? That Barnier is holding off on granting the UK banks equivalency as to financial rules.

 

Would you agree that this is a somewhat more important issue to the UK, financial services, than fisheries?

 

The EU can revoke equivalence unilaterally at any time. So even if equivalence is granted for some services traded out of London, it could be short-lived. For financial services companies this means continuing uncertainty.

I don't think Boris will sacrifice fishing for financial services as he is aware he will be toast

Boris vs corbyn was a easy choice for the UK voters, Boris vs starmer/Nandy not sure how that would play out in an election

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Of course there won't be a status quo, rather the whole point of the negotiation!

 

But very clearly Barnier will continue to ask for European boats to fish in UK waters. So that will stay the same. Only the percentage of fish quotas will change.

 

So your much vaunted 'Barnier hints he will compromise on fish access' is a bit of a red herring, isn't it? He's not compromising on access to fish in principle, merely hinting he'd be prepared to look at the quotas. But not on the terms the UK wants, on his own terms.

 

 

No its not as the EU fishing countries are demanding status quo and no amendents to status quo , Barnier can look at quotas on his terms but it still needs the UK to agree to those quotas as well as the EU fishing countries

[Logosone]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

The EU can revoke equivalence unilaterally at any time. So even if equivalence is granted for some services traded out of London, it could be short-lived. For financial services companies this means continuing uncertainty.

I don't think Boris will sacrifice fishing for financial services as he is aware he will be toast

Boris vs corbyn was a easy choice for the UK voters, Boris vs starmer/Nandy not sure how that would play out in an election

 

Yes, indeed financial services faces considerable uncertainty, quite a difference to the safety of guaranteed passporting rights. But then that is what Brexiteers have caused for firms in the UK.

 

And you're right, equivalency can be revoked. And even so the UK is desperate for it to be granted. Even crumbs and scraps are better than nothing.

 

Oh I think Boris will not even blink to sacrifice fishing in favour of financial services, but there'll be no need. Boris will grant European boats access, Europe will agree to a slightly reduced quota and of course the EU will continue to graciously allow the British fishermen to sell their fish in the EU. We're not animals. And Barnier would certainly not be so vulgar as to make agreement on financial services explicitly conditional on agreement on fisheries. Withholding equivalency until later makes this point perfectly clear without labouring it.

 

Boris would certainly not be toast if he gives European boats access to waters with different quotas, especially if he gets something on financial services. Yes, British fishermen punch above their weight politically, but not that much.

[Logosone]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No its not as the EU fishing countries are demanding status quo and no amendents to status quo , Barnier can look at quotas on his terms but it still needs the UK to agree to those quotas as well as the EU fishing countries

Well, let's look at the annoucement that came out only a few hours ago:

 

"On fishing rights, Barnier said the UK’s proposal to negotiate the level of catches in British waters on an annual basis, similar to an agreement with Norway, was impractical. He noted that the EU and Norway negotiated over five species of fish while there were 100 shared stocks in European and British seas."

 

"Barnier said the British government was further insisting that fisheries should be outside the main trade deal. “An economic agreement with the UK will have to include a balanced agreement on fisheries,” he insisted."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/05/barnier-warns-of-grave-differences-between-eu-and-uk-in-trade-talks

 

Translation: We, the EU, will not stoop to the level of Norway and negotiate for over 100 species of fish, but we'll accept a unified deal where we agree to talk about quotas generally in return for European boats accessing "British" waters as before.

 

And just by way of explanation what the UK now calls 'British" waters, were not British waters in 1970, only AFTER the UK joined the common market did European countries generally agree to extend their territorial waters on the explicit and written understanding that each country can fish in the other member's waters. Prior to that Europeans were fishing in the waters which until that agreement were not 'British' at all.

 

Translation Part 2: Any agreement on fishes will be explicitly linked to financial services.

 

You were right though, the EU is prepared to negotiate quotas of fish it seems, albeit on EU terms.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Logosone

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Dont think so

The EU’s chief negotiator hinted that Brussels could be prepared to shift from its stance that European boats will have continued access to UK waters under the same conditions as now. The EU has made an agreement on fishing a condition of the trade agreement. 

You seem to place an awful lot of trust in the word "hint".

This is what is going to happen. The UK will demand free access to the EU in order to sell fish. The EU will demand access to UK fishing waters in return.

The UK will either accept this or reject it. If it accepts then the status quo is maintained. If it rejects it then 2/3's of the UK's fishing industry will disappear. 

So ultimately the UK will accept it. The fishing card is played. Your strongest card remember?

So given nothing will change regarding fishing what is the point of Brexit?

[Logosone]

I quite agree, the British fishing industry will have gained nothing through Brexit. The best it can hope for is to continue to be able to sell its fish to the EU on the same terms.

 

Hard to see how Brexit has improved the position of the British fishing industry.

 

On the EU chief negotiator, apparently Barnier became a member of Parliament at the age of 22! He's not a lawyer, and did not go to the elite French academy. He's a politician through and through. Originally from the alps, a mountain man. So this Politics Mozart has as counterpart David Frost, a highly intelligent career diplomat whose main achievement is having been ambassador to Denmark. Strange, surely one of the top UK lawyers should have been in Frost's seat?

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Selective memory. With a state of emergency having been declared twice in 1972 Joe Public was desperate to move in a different direction, the government decision was ratified in 1975 by a much greater margin than brexit.

Your diversion may sway those who can't see it for what it is but my comment concerned government deception and the  primacy of EEC/EU treaty law. 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

But Barnier is an unelected EU bureaucrat and they cant be trusted. Brexiteers have assured us on many occasions we should not listen to them.

Now you're starting to get it.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

France has said we will not be selling our fish to the EU if there is no deal.

Two thirds of the fishing industry will disappear overnight.

A small price to pay for blue passports. 

So France is really dictating what the rest of the EU can buy and eat? 

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So France is really dictating what the rest of the EU can buy and eat? 

All members have a veto on the final deal.

[Logosone]

If anyone dictates what the EU can eat, please let it be France.

[david555]

49 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

All members have a veto on the final deal.

Including Spain & Greece.........