US firm denies masks for Germany seized in Bangkok

[Crazy Alex]

5 hours ago, candide said:

Interesting. However, as far as my knowledge of German allows me to understand, it seems the article only explores alternative explanations and doesn't draw a clear conclusion. And has a title with a question mark at the end.

Translation of first paragraph:

 

"On Friday the outrage was great in Berlin: Interior Senator Geisel accused the United States of having intercepted certain masks for the German capital in the Far East and redirected them to their own country. But now it turns out that that's not true at all."

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Noooooooooo, this is just a stupid naive German newspaper taking the US embassy's word for it. It never happened. Really?

 

It's just French, German and Brazilian ministers making this stuff up?

 

Come on...

There is no mention of the French or Brazilians in this story, so they are irrelevant. Furthermore, the story has been debunked already- or at the very least calls it into serious question. I'll leave it to you to say German newspapers are stupid and naive. I have no such knowledge of that.

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

[Logosone]

15 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Translation of first paragraph:

 

"On Friday the outrage was great in Berlin: Interior Senator Geisel accused the United States of having intercepted certain masks for the German capital in the Far East and redirected them to their own country. But now it turns out that that's not true at all."

That's what this idiot journalist wrote because he believes the lying US embassy in Berlin, who have, of  c o u r s e  denied everything.

 

When has a thief ever admitted he's a thief?

 

German sources know for a FACT that this shipment landed in the US.

 

And just coincidentally it just so happens that 23 huge planes land in China and steal the Brazilians' supplies? Someone steals the French masks from under their nose? And Trump passes a law that stops 3M from selling masks to Canada and Latin American countries? All coincidence? Really? Wow those independent businessmen really go to a lot of effort, lol.

 

Are you seriously suggesting we are to believe this is not a US government operation?

 

You can admit Trump is lying anytime. It's your company, 3M, why even bother to lie like this?

 

Are you so embarassed in the US that you care not one bit about anyone else?

 

[Logosone]

In Brazil, the health minister this week said some of the country’s purchases from China fell through after the United States started transporting planeloads of equipment from China.

“The United States has ordered 23 huge airplanes to China to bring back the materials that they’d acquired,” Brazilian health minister Luiz Henrique Mandetta told reporters. “Our purchases — which we expected would bolster supplies — many fell through.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/03/white-house-scrambles-scoop-up-medical-supplies-angering-canada-germany/

 

[rabas]

27 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Translation of first paragraph:

 

"On Friday the outrage was great in Berlin: Interior Senator Geisel accused the United States of having intercepted certain masks for the German capital in the Far East and redirected them to their own country. But now it turns out that that's not true at all."

And the second paragraph reads:

 

Contrary to what the Berlin Senator Andreas Geisel claims, the US government has not intercepted and redirected any masks intended for the German capital to its own country. As a spokesman for the Berlin police told the "Tagesspiegel", there could be no question of "confiscating". The police had ordered the masks from a German middleman, who apparently then diverted the goods to the United States.

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

 

 

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, rabas said:

And the second paragraph reads:

 

Contrary to what the Berlin Senator Andreas Geisel claims, the US government has not intercepted and redirected any masks intended for the German capital to its own country. As a spokesman for the Berlin police told the "Tagesspiegel", there could be no question of "confiscating". The police had ordered the masks from a German middleman, who apparently then diverted the goods to the United States.

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

 

 

So a German sold out his own country. I couldn't make up a more hilarious finale to this story.

[Crazy Alex]

10 minutes ago, Logosone said:

In Brazil, the health minister this week said some of the country’s purchases from China fell through after the United States started transporting planeloads of equipment from China.

“The United States has ordered 23 huge airplanes to China to bring back the materials that they’d acquired,” Brazilian health minister Luiz Henrique Mandetta told reporters. “Our purchases — which we expected would bolster supplies — many fell through.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/03/white-house-scrambles-scoop-up-medical-supplies-angering-canada-germany/

 

So what?

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

So a German sold out his own country. I couldn't make up a more hilarious finale to this story.

 

Finale? 

 

This is just the start.

 

[Logosone]

7 minutes ago, rabas said:

And the second paragraph reads:

 

Contrary to what the Berlin Senator Andreas Geisel claims, the US government has not intercepted and redirected any masks intended for the German capital to its own country. As a spokesman for the Berlin police told the "Tagesspiegel", there could be no question of "confiscating". The police had ordered the masks from a German middleman, who apparently then diverted the goods to the United States.

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

 

 

Of course they have!

 

The CIA probably tortured that German middleman with waterboarding until he was half dead before he agreed to accept a vastly higher dollar figure for the masks. Because we know the Americans torture people and steal masks. Like thieves. And torturers.

 

Just because this idiot from N-TV just believes the US Embassy you're not going to convince anyone this was not a US government operation.

 

What a lying, thieving, torturing evil empire.

[rabas]

18 minutes ago, Logosone said:

When has a thief ever admitted he's a thief?

And likewise when did a propagandist ever change his story when confronted with the truth?

 

There has been lots of fake information and media manipulation in recent weeks. Russia has already been flagged for a campaign designed to worsen the pandemic in the West, and I can see China chomping at the bit.  They do seem coordinated at times.

 

It may be a good time to re-familiarize ourselves with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by rabas

[Logosone]

5 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

So what?

So it proves there is a pattern here, German masks, French masks, Brazilian masks, Canadians out, Latin American countries out by decree....

 

This is clearly American desperation for masks.

 

The Chinese turned you into animals and you know no greater God anymore.

[candide]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

Translation of first paragraph:

 

"On Friday the outrage was great in Berlin: Interior Senator Geisel accused the United States of having intercepted certain masks for the German capital in the Far East and redirected them to their own country. But now it turns out that that's not true at all."

As far as I understand (paragraph. 2) the police has changed its wording from "confiscated" to "diverted".

In paragraph 3 the article states that it hasn't been diverted at the request of Washington's government without explaining why it states so. Then discuss several options. It seems the Berlin police doesn't know what happened and is still investigating.

Actually, the article relates what was written in another newspaper, which is not more precise.

https://m.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/200-000-atemschutzmasken-doch-nicht-konfisziert-lieferung-fuer-berliner-polizei-wurde-in-thailand-zu-besserem-preis-aufgekauft/25715448.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[Benmart]

Lots of unanswered questions, although the usual sleuths in TVF have all the answers. Long distance detective work is an amazing feat.

[LEXUS 400]

Jeg vil aldri !!!!!! . kjøpe noe mer fra 3M !.

 

[Crazy Alex]

55 minutes ago, candide said:

As far as I understand (paragraph. 2) the police has changed its wording from "confiscated" to "diverted".

In paragraph 3 the article states that it hasn't been diverted at the request of Washington's government without explaining why it states so. Then discuss several options. It seems the Berlin police doesn't know what happened and is still investigating.

Actually, the article relates what was written in another newspaper, which is not more precise.

https://m.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/200-000-atemschutzmasken-doch-nicht-konfisziert-lieferung-fuer-berliner-polizei-wurde-in-thailand-zu-besserem-preis-aufgekauft/25715448.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Diverted... apparently by the German national who appears to have been acting as the broker. Bottom line: it was premature to blame Trump. There are what appear to be credible stories, but saying different things.

[Crazy Alex]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

That's what this idiot journalist wrote because he believes the lying US embassy in Berlin, who have, of  c o u r s e  denied everything.

 

When has a thief ever admitted he's a thief?

 

German sources know for a FACT that this shipment landed in the US.

 

And just coincidentally it just so happens that 23 huge planes land in China and steal the Brazilians' supplies? Someone steals the French masks from under their nose? And Trump passes a law that stops 3M from selling masks to Canada and Latin American countries? All coincidence? Really? Wow those independent businessmen really go to a lot of effort, lol.

 

Are you seriously suggesting we are to believe this is not a US government operation?

 

You can admit Trump is lying anytime. It's your company, 3M, why even bother to lie like this?

 

Are you so embarassed in the US that you care not one bit about anyone else?

 

So what if it landed in the US? The question is WHY? It appears the German who brokered the deal screwed you and sent it somewhere else.

 

As for lying? It appears the version posted by the moderators here is the lie. But I understand why you're a bit testy. You posted how Germans don't lie. Well, it appears the German who arranged the sale to his countrymen lied.

 

At this point, it appears Trump is irrelevant.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Crazy Alex

[Logosone]

13 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

So what if it landed in the US? The question is WHY? It appears the German who brokered the deal screwed you and sent it somewhere else.

 

As for lying? It appears the version posted by the moderators here is the lie. But I understand why you're a bit testy. You posted how Germans don't lie. Well, it appears the German who arranged the sale to his countrymen lied.

 

At this point, it appears Trump is irrelevant.

Indeed.

 

The question is "Why".

 

I own a business in Germany. When I make a sale with a client that's it. The product is taken off the inventory. It is packed and dispatched. Sent on its way. I don't go after the product. I don't instruct the courier service to send it somewhere else. Not even if someone else offers a higher price. You know why? Because the little bit extra paid would not warrant such efforts. There's more merchandise after all. And it's bad for reputation to rescind a contract where goods were paid.

 

Why oh why would a seller take such unusual steps. Why indeed.

 

And who can send enough planes to transport 200,000 masks so easily?

 

Just as around the globe French and Brazilian masks disappear. And in the US the good Donald mandates that 3M can not sell to other countries like Canada or South American countries.

 

Why indeed Alex.

 

What could possibly be the reason. Hahahahahahahahahahaha

 

LOL

 

 

[Saraburi121]

Answer is probably just who paid the most money.  The all mighty yen, euro, peso, $ etcetra trumps (excuse the pun) all. Countries don't have friends, just interests, and business's are not loyal to anything but money. 

[Crazy Alex]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Indeed.

 

The question is "Why".

 

I own a business in Germany. When I make a sale with a client that's it. The product is taken off the inventory. It is packed and dispatched. Sent on its way. I don't go after the product. I don't instruct the courier service to send it somewhere else. Not even if someone else offers a higher price. You know why? Because the little bit extra paid would not warrant such efforts. There's more merchandise after all. And it's bad for reputation to rescind a contract where goods were paid.

 

Why oh why would a seller take such unusual steps. Why indeed.

 

And who can send enough planes to transport 200,000 masks so easily?

 

Just as around the globe French and Brazilian masks disappear. And in the US the good Donald mandates that 3M can not sell to other countries like Canada or South American countries.

 

Why indeed Alex.

 

What could possibly be the reason. Hahahahahahahahahahaha

 

LOL

 

 

Big deal, you own a business. So do I. Means nothing. But let's get into the specifics you posted:

 

1) You say it wouldn't be worth it to reroute the goods while in transit. The problem is, you don't know the monetary value in the change of destination. A legit business owner would know that.

 

2) You posted about the difficulty of shipping 200,000 masks. Let's do some math. I found a box of 100 masks on amazon.com:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Disposable-Surgical-Medical-Industrial-Quality/dp/B084ZPP8FC/ref=sr_1_16?crid=Q10PLWXQBD9E&dchild=1&keywords=n95+mask&qid=1586190161&sprefix=n95+mask%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-16

 

50 masks weigh 8 oz. and take up 200 cubic inches. 4,000 of these cases = 200,000 masks. 200 cubic inches x 4,000 cases = 462 cubic feet. 4,000 cases x .5 lbs. = 2,000 lbs. But let's be generous and say the masks are really 50% heavier and take up 50% more space for whatever reason. So now we have 3,000 pounds and 693 cubic feet. An Airbus A300, very common cargo plane, carries over 17 tons of cargo:

 

https://www.iagcargo.com/en/page/fleet/airbus-a330-300

 

So the cargo would constitute 9% of the capacity of one Airbus A300. Now let's talk volume. 693 cubic feet. Let's assume an 8'w X 8' tall pallet. That pallet would be 10.8 feet long. At this point, I'll leave it to your imagination how little space that is in a wide body A300.

 

So you see, 200,000 masks is NOTHING. Based on weight, that ONE SINGLE AIRPLANE could carry 2,000,000 masks.

 

hahahahahahahahaha indeed.

 

Finally, now that other information has come out, calling into serious question the involvement of the Trump administration, he is pretty much irrelevant. However, I don't recall reading your reaction to your fellow German diverting the masks to another destination. Hey, wouldn't that mean the German LIED to his customer? Oh wait a minute, that can't be. Germans don't lie.

 

hahahahahahahahaha indeed.

 

[Logosone]

9 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Big deal, you own a business. So do I. Means nothing. But let's get into the specifics you posted:

 

1) You say it wouldn't be worth it to reroute the goods while in transit. The problem is, you don't know the monetary value in the change of destination. A legit business owner would know that.

 

2) You posted about the difficulty of shipping 200,000 masks. Let's do some math. I found a box of 100 masks on amazon.com:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Disposable-Surgical-Medical-Industrial-Quality/dp/B084ZPP8FC/ref=sr_1_16?crid=Q10PLWXQBD9E&dchild=1&keywords=n95+mask&qid=1586190161&sprefix=n95+mask%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-16

 

50 masks weigh 8 oz. and take up 200 cubic inches. 4,000 of these cases = 200,000 masks. 200 cubic inches x 4,000 cases = 462 cubic feet. 4,000 cases x .5 lbs. = 2,000 lbs. But let's be generous and say the masks are really 50% heavier and take up 50% more space for whatever reason. So now we have 3,000 pounds and 693 cubic feet. An Airbus A300, very common cargo plane, carries over 17 tons of cargo:

 

https://www.iagcargo.com/en/page/fleet/airbus-a330-300

 

So the cargo would constitute 9% of the capacity of one Airbus A300. Now let's talk volume. 693 cubic feet. Let's assume an 8'w X 8' tall pallet. That pallet would be 10.8 feet long. At this point, I'll leave it to your imagination how little space that is in a wide body A300.

 

So you see, 200,000 masks is NOTHING. Based on weight, that ONE SINGLE AIRPLANE could carry 2,000,000 masks.

 

hahahahahahahahaha indeed.

 

Finally, now that other information has come out, calling into serious question the involvement of the Trump administration, he is pretty much irrelevant. However, I don't recall reading your reaction to your fellow German diverting the masks to another destination. Hey, wouldn't that mean the German LIED to his customer? Oh wait a minute, that can't be. Germans don't lie.

 

hahahahahahahahaha indeed.

 

But you see, Alex, there is no "other information that has come out , calling into serious question the involvement of the Trump administration".

 

All there is, all this "other information that has come out" is, well, are you ready...it's a statement by the US embassy in Berlin that denies US involvement. A statement that is basically worth less than toilet paper.

 

Based on this alone the idiot journalist at the N-TV takes it as given that "oh well if the US embassy denies it, if 3M denies it, then well it must not have happened". LOL, talk about naive.

 

What else is 3M going to say "Yes, we take orders from clients, then wilfully cancel the deal and deliver the goods to someone else"? What is the US administration going to say "Oh yes, we steal masks from other countries by underhand and immoral means, because frankly we don't care if other people die"? Come on, please, let's be serious here.

 

Yah, yah, okay, one plane. One plane sure. And the 23 planes that flew to China to pick up the Brazilian masks were probably also one big huge giant of a plane. It doesn't matter.

 

We all know who stole those masks, with underhand, immoral methods:

 

 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

31 minutes ago, Logosone said:

But you see, Alex, there is no "other information that has come out , calling into serious question the involvement of the Trump administration".

 

All there is, all this "other information that has come out" is, well, are you ready...it's a statement by the US embassy in Berlin that denies US involvement. A statement that is basically worth less than toilet paper.

 

Based on this alone the idiot journalist at the N-TV takes it as given that "oh well if the US embassy denies it, if 3M denies it, then well it must not have happened". LOL, talk about naive.

 

What else is 3M going to say "Yes, we take orders from clients, then wilfully cancel the deal and deliver the goods to someone else"? What is the US administration going to say "Oh yes, we steal masks from other countries by underhand and immoral means, because frankly we don't care if other people die"? Come on, please, let's be serious here.

 

Yah, yah, okay, one plane. One plane sure. And the 23 planes that flew to China to pick up the Brazilian masks were probably also one big huge giant of a plane. It doesn't matter.

 

We all know who stole those masks, with underhand, immoral methods:

 

 

 

 

But I thought it was now understood that a German middle man / broker diverted the order to the US? Would be interesting to hear some (rational) thoughts on that from you. 

[candide]

Personally my bet would be on Kushner's task force as it is able to play on the private side when needed.

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

But you see, Alex, there is no "other information that has come out , calling into serious question the involvement of the Trump administration".

 

All there is, all this "other information that has come out" is, well, are you ready...it's a statement by the US embassy in Berlin that denies US involvement. A statement that is basically worth less than toilet paper.

 

Based on this alone the idiot journalist at the N-TV takes it as given that "oh well if the US embassy denies it, if 3M denies it, then well it must not have happened". LOL, talk about naive.

 

What else is 3M going to say "Yes, we take orders from clients, then wilfully cancel the deal and deliver the goods to someone else"? What is the US administration going to say "Oh yes, we steal masks from other countries by underhand and immoral means, because frankly we don't care if other people die"? Come on, please, let's be serious here.

 

Yah, yah, okay, one plane. One plane sure. And the 23 planes that flew to China to pick up the Brazilian masks were probably also one big huge giant of a plane. It doesn't matter.

 

We all know who stole those masks, with underhand, immoral methods:

 

 

 

 

OK, let's set aside that you completely dodged the facts presented. I will assume you have conceded I am correct on the facts presented.

 

Now let's move on to your assertion that we all know who stole those masks. No, "we" don't. In fact, you have been presented with legitimate evidence that the German broker himself rerouted the merchandise. What you claim you'd do is irrelevant. We are dealing with the facts as we know them.

 

You claim you Germans don't lie. Based on your assertion, you accept the German media story that says your fellow German rerouted the masks in transit, yes? And if that's the case, since Germans don't lie, Trump has nothing to do with this and nothing has been stolen.

[Crazy Alex]

15 hours ago, Logosone said:

Why the dishonesty by the Americans?

 

The same happened to France. Laws mandating 3M can't sell to Canada or Latin America?

 

All coincidence? A mask hungry band of completely private businessmen just happened to be roaming the planet at the same time paying over-market prices for masks for the US? What a major coincidence.

 

Of course admitting to the world "we're selfish, self-centred sobs who care nothing about you' could be ill-received by the world.

 

Hence the deception of pretending it was "private businessmen". Of course 3M would deny it, it's terrible for their reputation after all.

 

A German media source has debunked that story. And I have it straight from an expert on TVF that Germans don't lie.

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

[Crazy Alex]

12 hours ago, Proboscis said:

But if someone has ordered something at an agreed price, then a third party butting in means that there has been a breach of contract between the supplier and the party ordering the product at the agreed price. There should be a legal remedy against 3M unless of course if the Americans stole the product - then the personnel should be arrest for theft in Thailand.

It wasn't a third party. It was the German broker.

 

"Contrary to what the Berlin Senator Andreas Geisel claims, the US government has not intercepted and redirected any masks intended for the German capital to its own country. As a spokesman for the Berlin police told the "Tagesspiegel", there could be no question of "confiscating". The police had ordered the masks from a German middleman, who apparently then diverted the goods to the United States. Overall, it was about a delivery of 200,000 masks that belonged to a package of 400,000 FFP-2 mouthguards, according to the newspaper from the production of the US company 3M. The delivery was "detained and rerouted in Thailand," the police said. The contractual partner, i.e. the German dealer, provides for replacement."

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

[Iron Tongue]

The problem with 3M is that they only go through distributors for their products.  Worked fine in the past.

 

Since the pandemic, it has been these distributors who are controlling the inventory and brokering/diverting shipments out to the highest bidder while 3M takes it in the backside in PR.

 

 

[Damrongsak]

There's a big stink in the US about 3M distributors and brokers selling masks to other countries such that domestic supply is limited.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/florida-emergency-official-3m-selling-masks-overseas

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/03/826629472/slammed-by-trump-3m-says-n95-mask-exports-from-u-s-should-continue

[candide]

13 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

It wasn't a third party. It was the German broker.

 

"Contrary to what the Berlin Senator Andreas Geisel claims, the US government has not intercepted and redirected any masks intended for the German capital to its own country. As a spokesman for the Berlin police told the "Tagesspiegel", there could be no question of "confiscating". The police had ordered the masks from a German middleman, who apparently then diverted the goods to the United States. Overall, it was about a delivery of 200,000 masks that belonged to a package of 400,000 FFP-2 mouthguards, according to the newspaper from the production of the US company 3M. The delivery was "detained and rerouted in Thailand," the police said. The contractual partner, i.e. the German dealer, provides for replacement."

 

https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Haben-USA-Masken-doch-nicht-abgefangen-article21693615.html

My two cents. This article is based on another article in Tagespielgel, so it would be better to refer to the original article (it's the Tagespiegel which interviewed the Berlin police). There are slight divergences between the two articles.

[liddelljohn]

One thing you can be sure of that if It did happen that corrupt Thais  would have facilitated  the whole thing ,  The French, German ,UK media seem aware of it ,, I doubt its done by USA Governmnt but   dodgy companies   greed and  dodgy Thai officials would be very believable ,, sure the facts will unravel eventually ,, NO SECRETS  are ever kept in thailand .

[Logosone]

8 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

But I thought it was now understood that a German middle man / broker diverted the order to the US? Would be interesting to hear some (rational) thoughts on that from you. 

It's completely irrelevant what nationality the middleman had. He could have been from Iran, Burma or New Zeland.

 

No businessman takes a decision like this unless something very unusual has happened.

 

What most likely happened was that he received a phone all from a pleasant sounding man who said he worked for the US government and they need to make sure those masks arrive in the us one way or the other.

 

That middleman, once he heard the US government were involved, obviously thought of his own safety. Hardly surprising.