Insurgents Burn Female Villager Alive

[MiG16]

and to those that are talking about a better more developed Malaysia as opposed to thailand. I guess the question to ask is..better for who? the muslims? or the so called Bumiputeras? who are the majority?

try asking the chinese and the indian community who are the minorities there? especially the indian community, who are the minority, and particularly the indians who are marginalised and barely able to survive economically.

malaysia has a policy that discrimates against minority by giving special privelege to the muslim majority.

[ColPyat]

Don't see any hacked off hands or women stoned to death

not yet , but its only a matter of time.

Anyhow, the world would be a better place if we would stop interfering with other's business constantly, and in the process making things much worse.

agreed

It would be prudent to let the Acenese sort out their own issues the way how they want it,

are we sure thats how the majority want it ?

and not just get up in arms over short newspaper articles who often are not exactly reliable

i would say that that article is reliable , those stories have been widely reported and filmed.

And what do you propose to do, even if the case might be one day that harsh Sharia will be introduced, and against the will of the majority of the population?

I don't see that Afghanistan or Iraq has turned out to be much of a success, regardless Bush/Blair spin, and more such "successes" could very well draw us into endless wars.

Maybe best is to be glad that at least there is no fighting in Aceh anymore, and let them conduct their business they way how they want to, and work towards a similar solution in Thailand. The important bit is not how they choose to deal with their affairs, but that the fighting comes to a stop ASAP, and with whatever method that works. Aceh so far has worked very well.

[ColPyat]

and to those that are talking about a better more developed Malaysia as opposed to thailand. I guess the question to ask is..better for who? the muslims? or the so called Bumiputeras? who are the majority?

try asking the chinese and the indian community who are the minorities there? especially the indian community, who are the minority, and particularly the indians who are marginalised and barely able to survive economically.

malaysia has a policy that discrimates against minority by giving special privelege to the muslim majority.

No doubt that there are the problems you mentioned.

But none of my many Chinese-Malaysian friends feel that they would have a better life here in Thailand than they have in Malaysia. I do see them doing rather well even with the clearly discriminatory practices there. I don't have any Indian Malaysian friends, so i would not know their assessments.

But, it is rather obvious that economically Malaysia is in a far better position than Thailand, education is far better, no impoverished class of upcountry villagers. Malaysia has a long way to go, but the development over the last 20 odd years is mind blowing, and also the relative stability - in all those aspects Thailand clearly lags behind.

[Mid]

But, it is rather obvious that economically Malaysia is in a far better position than Thailand,

an observation follows ....................

the closer you are the more obvious it becomes .

[taxexile]

And what do you propose to do, even if the case might be one day that harsh Sharia will be introduced, and against the will of the majority of the population?

there is nothing i could do , other than form an opinion and express that opinion.

something that the people under sharia law cannot do.

yes the fighting has stopped , and for that at least we can be glad ,but whether the persecution of women who refuse to tow the line is an acceptable state of affairs , and whether they are running their society according to the wishes of the people , or according to the wishes of the dictatorial and medieval mullahs is something else that should be looked at , because for europeans , the spread of islam is a frightening reality.

when islam achieves majority in some european countries , probably within 4 or 5 generations , it is more than likely that sharia law will come to pass.

we wont be around then , but our descendants will , and do we want this regressive extremism to be our legacy.

whats happening in pakistan , afghanistan , iraq , iran , aceh , the sudan and southern thailand is very relevant to europeans and to a lesser extent americans , and whilst i agree that its not our business to send in the troops , i do believe it is our business to stop the funding for it.

and that means losing our dependancy on oil , and losing it quick.

but of course that will never happen.

the judeo christian world is feeding a hand that will without doubt come back and grab us by the throat until we cant breath anymore.

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

only one way to deal with problems like this.

get the press out and send the army in.

insurgency and warfare is a nasty business , and it is not necessary for the opinions of those not directly affected by it to dilute the effectiveness of the actions necessary to bring it to an end.

the insurgents know this and play on it , thats why they are so successful.

you've got to break some eggs to make an omelette.

How much do you charge per cliche?

[taxexile]

more than you can afford.

[ColPyat]

when islam achieves majority in some european countries , probably within 4 or 5 generations , it is more than likely that sharia law will come to pass.

we wont be around then , but our descendants will , and do we want this regressive extremism to be our legacy.

whats happening in pakistan , afghanistan , iraq , iran , aceh , the sudan and southern thailand is very relevant to europeans and to a lesser extent americans , and whilst i agree that its not our business to send in the troops , i do believe it is our business to stop the funding for it.

and that means losing our dependancy on oil , and losing it quick.

but of course that will never happen.

the judeo christian world is feeding a hand that will without doubt come back and grab us by the throat until we cant breath anymore.

I think you are falling a bit for rabid propaganda, and as a result you are in a state of paranoia, if i may say so, IMHO. No insult intended.

The vast and overwhelming majority of Muslims in Europe are there to make money, raise their families in peace, and not to prepare a world revolution, despite incensing articles by extreme right wing publications.

What is happening in the countries you mentioned are insurgencies and wars in mostly underdeveloped countries and areas of developing countries, where, trying to stay with clichees, Muslims do a far better job in massacring their fellow Muslims than "infidels".

[endure]

I realize that it's a small percentage that are radicals.....but why does the majority remain silent?

One simple reason : FEAR. The majority are largely family people, would any of us stand up and denounce these fanatics if we knew that by doing so we were putting our parents, spouses and children in mortal danger?

And lack of knowledge. No-one in the UK assumed that every Catholic in Northern Ireland had knowledge of what the IRA was up to. Why should ordinary Muslims be expected to know what the insurgents are planning?

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

Has anyone actually been to the Southern provinces, (any further south than Phuket i'd accept). Or are you all talking from some other experience which you impute as being obviously accurate, based on your vast worldliness and down to earth common sense.

[ColPyat]

I realize that it's a small percentage that are radicals.....but why does the majority remain silent?

One simple reason : FEAR. The majority are largely family people, would any of us stand up and denounce these fanatics if we knew that by doing so we were putting our parents, spouses and children in mortal danger?

And lack of knowledge. No-one in the UK assumed that every Catholic in Northern Ireland had knowledge of what the IRA was up to. Why should ordinary Muslims be expected to know what the insurgents are planning?

Because all Muslims are part of a cunning conspiracy to subject the world to their religion. And the Muslims who claim they are not cannot be trusted because Muslims are allowed lie when speaking to somebody who is not Muslim.

[Plus]

and to those that are talking about a better more developed Malaysia as opposed to thailand. I guess the question to ask is..better for who? the muslims? or the so called Bumiputeras? who are the majority?

try asking the chinese and the indian community who are the minorities there? especially the indian community, who are the minority, and particularly the indians who are marginalised and barely able to survive economically.

malaysia has a policy that discrimates against minority by giving special privelege to the muslim majority.

It's exactly the opposite.

Both Indians and Chinese live far better lives than Bhumiputras, the whole policy was meant to allow those lazy natives to catch up with pesky immigrants. It was only mildly successful and even Mahathir himself admitted that.

The fact is - Bhumiputras can't keep up with Chinese/Indians, not the other way around.

Muslim Malays also live under Sharia, btw.

>>>>>>>>>>.

Islam, or any religion for that matter, is incompatible with "our" way of life which is based on secualrism. Naturally long term, pestering conflicts are unavoidable.

From "our" point of view - muslims want to destroy "our" way of life. From their point of view, their way of life is a lot older than ours, and is under more serious threat than, say US Constitution.

Today French prohibit any display of religious affiliation, fifty years from now, when muslims outbreed the natives, the atheists themselves will go into hiding, courtesy of the majority rule.

[taxexile]

yes , the vast majority of muslims are there to raise families and put food on the table , just like the rest of us .

i dont read right wing publications , and i dont feel particularly paranoid about these things , despite my opinions.

but i do feel that islam has been hijacked by extremists with a very long term agenda of expansionism at any cost , and that these insurgencies are part of a wider picture.

[ColPyat]

Has anyone actually been to the Southern provinces, (any further south than Phuket i'd accept). Or are you all talking from some other experience which you impute as being obviously accurate, based on your vast worldliness and down to earth common sense.

Eh, yes, me, in all the three provinces.

Just came back 12 days ago, and will be going back there in a few days.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ColPyat

[JimsKnight]

ColPyat: Look who’s wearing the rosy glasses now.

I have to go to bed, so I got no time to repute any of that best wishes sort of approach.

Just do me a favor, if you ever go to war, don’t volunteer to lead. Your men would have to shoot you first if they were to have any chance to survive.

PS: you’re in the spell checker now.

LOL, nice one Canuckatron! Thats quite funny man!

[ColPyat]

yes , the vast majority of muslims are there to raise families and put food on the table , just like the rest of us .

i dont read right wing publications , and i dont feel particularly paranoid about these things , despite my opinions.

but i do feel that islam has been hijacked by extremists with a very long term agenda of expansionism at any cost , and that these insurgencies are part of a wider picture.

You could say the same about Christianity, if you look at the religious affiliations and believes of some of the most powerful leaders of the western world.

Just because there is an extremist fringe existing, does not mean that the whole community shares all of their believes and aims even though they may empathize with some of their points (which they do have).

Edited April 12, 2007 by ColPyat

[canuckamuck]

Because all Muslims are part of a cunning conspiracy to subject the world to their religion. And the Muslims who claim they are not cannot be trusted because Muslims are allowed lie when speaking to somebody who is not Muslim.

The only accurate thing youve said all day.

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

Has anyone actually been to the Southern provinces, (any further south than Phuket i'd accept). Or are you all talking from some other experience which you impute as being obviously accurate, based on your vast worldliness and down to earth common sense.

Eh, yes, me, in all the three provinces.

Just came back 12 days ago, and will be going back there in a few days.

Good, then I am keen to hear your inferrences.

The others are all rather like those who opine in depth about Thaksin's psyche, without ever having met the guy. Barroom philosophers.

[ourmanflint]

And no, Aceh is not off topic - Aceh is in many ways closely related to Pattani, has many parallels, and the Aceh solution is seen by many the only way out of the mess in the south some time in the future.

I don't want to get into the debate about how this should be resolved, only to say, that the result in Aceh whatever the process was Sharia law, and those non muslims living there have been threatened with jail for believing in anything but Islam. Is this a good result??

You should always keep your eyes on the prize I think and the end result of this situation in Pattani is what exactly??

As far as I can see there was no "solution" in Aceh as you put it, the fact is the Islamic fundamentalists got everything they wanted. So the only result that you get "across the table" is a 100% compromise from those opposing these Islamists.

Do you really want that in part or whole for a part of Thailand?

[dog412]

it's interesting that people wanting to cling to outdated dogmatic beliefs, or esoteric languages etc. etc., are seemingly the first to claim "unjust" treatment. Pattani may have BEEN, it is not and has not been for a long time, and for a reason. it's called life. if every cause used "history" to attempt justify it's demands, none of us would get anywhere. Thailand does not need an autonomous "islamic" leaning south. a decent constitution for all, that would be the modern approach.

[ColPyat]

I don't want to get into the debate about how this should be resolved, only to say, that the result in Aceh whatever the process was Sharia law, and those non muslims living there have been threatened with jail for believing in anything but Islam. Is this a good result??

What are you on about?

Which non-Muslims? Where were non-Muslims threatened to be jailed for "believing in anything but Islam"?

You may find out that in strict Islamic societies religious minorities can life their life, and that Islam protects their rights. In Iran there is a large Christian minority which is allowed to follow their religion, and can brew and drink alcohol, in Afghanistan throughout the Taleban years there were foreigners from all different NGOs and the UN living and working there.

I Malaysia Sharia laws only count for Muslims and not for non-Muslims.

What is the problem if Muslims from the three provinces would choose Sharia for their own community within those three provinces? If it brings peace, so what?

[ourmanflint]

Maybe best is to be glad that at least there is no fighting in Aceh anymore, and let them conduct their business they way how they want to, and work towards a similar solution in Thailand. The important bit is not how they choose to deal with their affairs, but that the fighting comes to a stop ASAP, and with whatever method that works. Aceh so far has worked very well.

OMFG!!!

If there is anyone arguing for the sake of it, it has to be you... what a ridiculous statement to make. Fighting is nothing compared to a forever in an Islamic state, where every Buddhist ( actually every non muslim would be more correct ) living in Pattani would have their lives changed forever and not for the better. Please think about the reality of your wishes before you post such nonsense. After all it won't be you that has to deal with your peaceful solution will it??

[PhilHarries]

I realize that it's a small percentage that are radicals.....but why does the majority remain silent?

One simple reason : FEAR. The majority are largely family people, would any of us stand up and denounce these fanatics if we knew that by doing so we were putting our parents, spouses and children in mortal danger?

And lack of knowledge. No-one in the UK assumed that every Catholic in Northern Ireland had knowledge of what the IRA was up to. Why should ordinary Muslims be expected to know what the insurgents are planning?

I wasn't trying to infer the ordinary people know what the insurgents are up to, no more than the Catholics in N. Ireland knew the IRA's plans, but many of them know WHO are the insurgents but will not denounce them nor point them out to the authorities out of fear of the consequences.

I do agree with your addition of "lack of knowledge" (education) into the equation which is why the insurgents target schools and teachers. Keep the people uneducated and they'll follow your every word blindly. Also the insurgents, like the IRA, have a preference for soft targets.

It's interesting the parallel you draw to Northern Ireland where again the majority of the population of either faith did not support the likes of the IRA or UDC. There they often held large demonstrations against the ongoing violence with sod all effect. It wasn't until the British government started talking to the IRA that any progress was made.

[endure]

It's interesting the parallel you draw to Northern Ireland where again the majority of the population of either faith did not support the likes of the IRA or UDC. There they often held large demonstrations against the ongoing violence with sod all effect. It wasn't until the British government started talking to the IRA that any progress was made.

That's always the way. In the end people have to talk.

[ColPyat]

Maybe best is to be glad that at least there is no fighting in Aceh anymore, and let them conduct their business they way how they want to, and work towards a similar solution in Thailand. The important bit is not how they choose to deal with their affairs, but that the fighting comes to a stop ASAP, and with whatever method that works. Aceh so far has worked very well.

OMFG!!!

If there is anyone arguing for the sake of it, it has to be you... what a ridiculous statement to make. Fighting is nothing compared to a forever in an Islamic state, where every Buddhist ( actually every non muslim would be more correct ) living in Pattani would have their lives changed forever and not for the better. Please think about the reality of your wishes before you post such nonsense. After all it won't be you that has to deal with your peaceful solution will it??

Thanks, and i can return the compliment - i guess it won't be you who has to do the fighting, and whose family is threatened by the fighting.

And i don't see where a peaceful solution would equate throwing the Buddhist population to the wolves. Nobody in his right mind would enter negotiations with the idea to let that happen. I think you have very little idea about such scenarios, and i would ask you to inform yourself a bit about the situation before disrupting otherwise mostly well informed discussions with such outlandish claims, please.

[ourmanflint]

I don't want to get into the debate about how this should be resolved, only to say, that the result in Aceh whatever the process was Sharia law, and those non muslims living there have been threatened with jail for believing in anything but Islam. Is this a good result??

What are you on about?

Which non-Muslims? Where were non-Muslims threatened to be jailed for "believing in anything but Islam"?

You may find out that in strict Islamic societies religious minorities can life their life, and that Islam protects their rights. In Iran there is a large Christian minority which is allowed to follow their religion, and can brew and drink alcohol, in Afghanistan throughout the Taleban years there were foreigners from all different NGOs and the UN living and working there.

I Malaysia Sharia laws only count for Muslims and not for non-Muslims.

What is the problem if Muslims from the three provinces would choose Sharia for their own community within those three provinces? If it brings peace, so what?

JAKARTA POST 28 September 2002 "Aceh to implement caning punishment"

In line with sharia law, the Aceh legislative council is proposing that caning be one of the punishments for people who tempt Muslims to desert religious teachings.

A special team set up by the council is drafting the bylaw in response to Law No. 44/1999 on Aceh's special status and Law No. 18/2002 on special autonomy for Aceh.

Chairman of the special team Azhari Basar said that caning would be imposed on those who propagated beliefs other than Islam to Muslims in the province. "Those who violate the ruling will face a maximum jail term of two years and a maximum fine of Rp 6 million or 10 strokes of the cane," he told Antara.

Azhari said that according to Article 17 of the draft, anyone who skips Friday prayers three times in a row without an acceptable reason would be fined a maximum of Rp 2 million, six months in jail or three strokes of the cane.

"Caning also applies to those who open their food stalls during Ramadhan (fasting month)," he said. Food stall owners who sell food, beverages or cigarettes publicly or secretly during the holy month will be fined a maximum of Rp 4 million, spend one year in jail or receive five strokes of the cane.

However, it is not clear who is in charge of carrying out the caning punishment: the police or the sharia police.

I re-read the article and it is open to interpretation I grant you.

I still think you need to wake up to the reality of modern Islam.

[ColPyat]

I do agree with your addition of "lack of knowledge" (education) into the equation which is why the insurgents target schools and teachers. Keep the people uneducated and they'll follow your every word blindly. Also the insurgents, like the IRA, have a preference for soft targets.

Yes, "soft targets" are an integral part of an insurgency against a superior opponent.

And no, the problem with burning of schools is a bit more complex. Thai schools teach nationalism and edited history from a very early age on, and in the views of the insurgents that resulted in a loss of cultural identity of the Muslim population.

Read the paper i have recommended a few pages ago, please.

[ourmanflint]

Islam, or any religion for that matter, is incompatible with "our" way of life which is based on secualrism. Naturally long term, pestering conflicts are unavoidable.

From "our" point of view - muslims want to destroy "our" way of life. From their point of view, their way of life is a lot older than ours, and is under more serious threat than, say US Constitution.

Today French prohibit any display of religious affiliation, fifty years from now, when muslims outbreed the natives, the atheists themselves will go into hiding, courtesy of the majority rule.

I see, so Islam founded in the 7th Century is a much older way of life than say Buddhism is it?? Or Judeism or Christianity??

[ColPyat]

I re-read the article and it is open to interpretation I grant you.

I still think you need to wake up to the reality of modern Islam.

Sorry, there is nothing open to interpretation. There is a clear difference between following a religion, and missioneering another religion. This is clearly aimed at the roving Christian fundamentalist Churches which appear and aggressively missioneer in every crises area.

Legislation against those parasites finds my applause.

[ColPyat]

By the way, i just realized that we are getting miles away from the original subject - the southern insurgency here in Thailand.

Could we maybe limit the discussion to that, and leave the Islam tries to subjugate the world for somewhere else, so that this thread is not getting closed.