Thai Manfriend Problem

[Scott]

Inflammatory and troll posts removed.   Keep it civil.  

 

[Drax]

31 minutes ago, geisha said:

I don’t want to sound mean, but I think you may have fallen into a scam. Thai men in their work rarely speak any English at all for a start. It all seems too exaggerated to me. Sorry. 

Yap. Either way my advice to him is come here first and decide later. And yeah possible to live here on 24k a month but it’s a tight budget and there’s no long term visa that doesn’t require at least 400k baht on bank on his case. That said once again visit Thailand before you even decide to move here. Things may be different from what you think. 

[Bramley]

12 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

Honestly, I'm not a life idiot, Im a Sociologist. Im just not used to dealing with situations like this. Got out of an abusive 21 year relationship so haven't been in the market long and wasn't expecting to fall like this or to have it happen with such horrible timing.

Wait till you meet them both in person, and the choice will be easy I guess.

[19DL86]

Could nt past the third page, tears were making typing too difficult.

 

Do you know what really sticks in my craw?  That if this was a guy talking this absolute claptrap regards a Thai girl, he'd get ripped to shreads.  But because this fella bats with the other hand - PC dictates he must be spared the abuse......Is that equality??

[Bobbie Davies]

So to answer several things at once.

 

Yes I am aware of the potential of HIV in school and parents minds. I also know that I do not have to disclose and usually they do not require blood tests for Teaching positions.

 

I never said I only have 24,000 Baht to live on. I said that I told them that I have 24,000 Baht from my Social Security. I have a very comfortable Savings and I own 2 homes; my own home and a rental in the US free and clear with no Mortgage.

 

I have mentioned several times; I have been to Thailand. Admittedly only 4 times, and admittedly only on a Tourist Visa, but I was there to visit my friends and so stayed in their homes and not in hotels and resorts. I never even saw a hotel or resort except as it whipped past me as I was driven past on the back of one of my friends' crazy motorcycle rides. So I do think I have a basic understanding of how they live and what life is like in Thailand.

 

No they do not live in the same village they live on opposite sides of Muaeng Udon Thani one 15 miles in one direction the other 60 in another.

 

No, men in these lines of work do not usually speak fluent English, I am aware of that. But for one thing my friends introduced me to people who spoke it at least to a basic level. For another, I told you they were not always working in this field they have had extensive exposure to Farang both in work and family. But like all things, not everyone fits into the same mold. As I am sure you are aware most of the labor force in Thailand comes from Udon Thani, that includes those who have to learn English and other languages at varying degrees of proficiency to deal with tourists and other foreigners on a daily basis. I have one friend from Udon Thani, who lives in Phuket, who not only speaks perfect Queens English but also speaks Lao, Chinese, and German, and he makes a living translating and teaching language. Unfortunately currently out of work due to Covid.

 

From what I have seen on many posts over the last year many people have had unpleasant experiences with their, I hate to use the term, "Thai boys". They seem to see a scam in every fluttering eyelash and every statement of I love you, but if it was done from someone in the next county over in the same country as you you wouldn't bat an eye. Well maybe some of you would, but it would be met with much less skepticism. Yes there are scammers, of course there are. I have to ask though. Would there be something wrong with someone wanting US citizenship? Just wondering? I hope to eventually marry whoever I get into a relationship with. Citizenship and inheritance are part of that package. Isn't every relationship at some level an attempt to gain security on the part of both people, whether it be Financial, Social, Emotional, Physical, etc...? A scam would indicate that it is one sided and that they are in some way attempting to take and not give in return. I have currently seen no indication of that. They have asked for no money. They have allowed me into hugely personal parts of their lives that to my understanding is not usually done by scammers or Thais unless they are pretty serious. I can call them at any time of day or night no problem and cam chat with no issue. They show me every step of every thing they do. I know their addresses, family addresses in Thailand and abroad. If it is a scam it is a pretty involved one. For the record, I am a bit of a skeptic myself, it has been pointed out that I am older and educated and that is true. To the best of my ability, everything they have told me as time goes on I check out as much as I am able. Remember, I may not speak Thai but I do have access to translation programs and can cut and paste with the best of them. I even had them checked out by Bangkok Private Investigators when they started talking love, who by the way I would recommend wholeheartedly they are reasonably priced and do a good job. That is how I know no kids and pretty detailed history even what they have not told me. So I am reasonably sure no scam.

 

One of the guys previous marriages. No no children. 1st wife is dead and second is out of the picture and remarried. He married for family reasons, his failed marriages have had family and social consequences.

 

I did not mean for the situation to go this far with two different men. I did not even go into it looking for a romantic relationship. I was looking for friends, connections, you know networking. In the case of these two men, we had mutual interests. And please don't say totally physical like I know you want to. There were plenty of others that were more physically attractive and that I would be drawn to physically. I get plenty of free offers of that. I call them "dyck in the face" for reasons that I am certain you can figure out. I'm talking things like cooking, Philosophy, Politics, Social Dynamics, stuff like that, and stuff by the way you can't fake very easily on the cuff. I thought I could control it. I know those are famous last words and they are coming to bite me in the butt. Not exactly sure why I should be ripped to shreds. I made a mistake, admittedly a big one in regards to two men at once wanting to be in a relationship with me. I don't know why a straight man would be ripped to shreds if he made the mistake with two women either. All I can do is acknowledge that I made a mistake, try to correct it and move on and hope that the damage was not too bad.

 

Yes I am aware of vengefulness; hate with the gut I was warned remember. I am also aware, especially in the case of one of the men of the wilting vine issue on these men. That is why I am seeking a way to deal with this in a graceful way.

[RichardColeman]

18 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

and the other said he would go on Prep. I told them my Social Security is only 24000 Baht a month.

Technically if you are on meds and sticking to them and viral load undetectable, prep could be a waste of money since nobody in the history of the planet has contracted HIV from an undetectable person

[Bobbie Davies]

5 hours ago, Bramley said:

Wait till you meet them both in person, and the choice will be easy I guess.

Dear it isn't the choice that I'm so much having the problem with. It's how do I bow out gracefully from one of these guys.

[Bobbie Davies]

14 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Technically if you are on meds and sticking to them and viral load undetectable, prep could be a waste of money since nobody in the history of the planet has contracted HIV from an undetectable person

I know this. However, Thailand provides Prep for its citizens free of charge as part of the National Health system and promotes its use, and that was his response not what I said he had to do. Plus it never hurts to double up for safety. I already have HIV and have had for 20 years. I have never passed it to another person and have no intention of ever doing so. Anything that can make that never ever happen is not a waste of time or money in my book, just saying.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Bobbie Davies
addition

[balo]

14 hours ago, Bobbie Davies said:

is back working in his hometown as a fisherman

Please explain how he can work as a fisherman in Udon Thani?  Mostly dried lakes up there. 

[Bobbie Davies]

6 hours ago, UTH001 said:

My goodness, you are some lucky guy! Two men waiting for you in the big city of Udon, and you are not even here yet! Interesting though that one was married before (twice, how many kids are there to support?), and both speak English (shame neither works at say Global House or Tesco Lotus, always difficult to find English speaking Thais in shops). They don't want your money (maybe US residency instead?), and don't worry about your health status. And both are hard working (a fisherman in Udon, really?),  another miracle, generally only Thai women work hard, you really hit the jackpot, I am almost jealous!

Sorry, I don't buy any of this, maybe because I am a bitter and twisted old man...

Maybe you are, I don't know. They aren't waiting for me in the "Big" city of Udon. Sarcasm is not necessary. I do know the realities of Udon Thani and of Udon. Especially Udon my father was posted there at Ramasun. You seem to have a problem with Thai men from the area, or maybe Thais in general. I am sorry. And if they do want residency? Is there something wrong with that? I will basically be seeking residency in their country for an extended maybe forever period of time. Are you living there? Are you there because of their sky high cost of living or because you can take advantage of their lower cost of living? If the Baht suddenly changed to 1 to 1 would you still be there? Are you one of those who think that everything should come free to you because you are the Mighty Farang From On High? Every relationship comes with a price tag unless you are just one big taker. Let's be honest who is taking advantage of whom.

 

You obviously do not see them as equal to you socially as you expect them to change to meet your wishes, (difficult to find English speaking Thais in shops, learn Thai), and you are burdened by a perception that I find puzzling, what do you consider hard work? Look out your door how many men do you see working? Police, Electricians, Carpenters, Tuk-Tuk Drivers, etc... Exactly what do they have to do to meet your standard of working hard? How many people do their wages have to support? How many people did your wages support when you were working assuming you worked? Did you have to personally add support to 3 generations of family? Did you have to personally take care of your parents and I mean take care of your parents until their dying day?

 

What makes a fisherman in Udon not hard working? He gets up at 4:00 in the morning I have seen this, talked to him, watched him getting dressed and drinking coffee, putting the nets in the truck get into the truck and drives with his friends to a lake or river pays however many Bahts necessary for the license for fishing that particular place for that day, and he may be driving 150 to 300 miles, sets up the nets and competes with maybe several hundred other fishermen in the same place for the fish in that area. (I'll be honest I've thought a couple times they would go after each other with machetes for prime spots). Will fish for 3 or four days in that area sell some fish to agents that come then go home. Take a couple of days drying the fish he has left some to store and the rest to sell. Then go out and do it again. While at home doing everything for his mother, shopping taking her to temple cooking food and preparing food for her to eat while he is gone, etc... Thats not working hard? And for the record, more shocking yet *gasp* he doesn't drink. That's right, a fisherman in Udon that doesn't drink. OMG It can't be real. Well hold onto your panties, don't faint, his meds don't allow it so he can't.

 

And honey I haven't been trying to sell you anything. You're the one trying to sell. Trying to sell that all Thais are ignorant and lazy and out to rip you off. It is beyond doubt that some are. But so are some Americans, Brits, Swedes, Germans, Russians, etc... Just look at so many straight expats who scream about Sin Sod as an example, or those that run when a few points are shaved off the Baht exchange, or those who want to emotionally or sexually exploit Thais for their gratification but don't want to actually have a "real" relationship or the responsibilities that come with it. And you're in Thailand so the Thailand rules go as far as responsibilities in a relationship. The real thing you are trying to sell is that you can live by Farang rules in a Thai culture. You need to be guided by the Thai culture in your dealings not by your American, Brit or whatever prejudices.

[Bobbie Davies]

20 minutes ago, balo said:

Please explain how he can work as a fisherman in Udon Thani?  Mostly dried lakes up there. 

He lives in a village in Udon Thani. He travels all over for fishing in lakes and rivers for days at a time. There is a group of five of them that travel together. They go 150 to 400 miles. An example they just came back from the Pao River not sure if I spelled that right. 150 miles from where he lives. On the border of Udon. will overnight for 3,4,5 days however long the permit is for. He does net fishing. I am not a fisherman so can only describe what I have seen him and his friends do a million times. they have these huge nets and rods like you use to put up tents and you spread out net with the rods in the water the fish come and you pull them in with the net. Yes some of the places the water doesn't look like much more than what I would think of as ponds. The drought is horrible up there. It does affect his fishing making him have to go waaaaaay farther than usual.

[Bobbie Davies]

I want to point something out. Some people in the forum seem to have a prejudice about men working in Thailand, especially in Udon Thani.

 

I have heard the statements made, and believe it or not as a Sociologist whose study was Thailand, have actually read studies made on the subject. Yes there were actual studies conducted. There is some accuracy to the rumors. If you are curious please look them up. I will not go into the details for you if you are too lazy.

 

However, the accuracy breaks down when you try to place it in the gay male context. Why? Because a gay man does not have a wife to have a supposed division of labor with. In addition the traditional age of usual retirement does not apply in the gay context either, they do not have children to take over the labor and take care of them. Part of the issue is the difference in how boys and girls are raised, but we will not get into that, the problem is that the system breaks down with gay boys and men.

 

The traditional way of doing things especially in Udon is that the girls get everything because the men move into the wife's family. Do you see the problem with a gay man? There is no wife's family to move into and they do not have an inheritance to look forward too because Udon is Matrilineal. These days they take the place of the younger daughter in taking care of the mother and working from the home while she leaves. But he gets nothing in return, that younger daughter is going to get the house. 

 

They do have to work harder longer than their straight counterparts, especially if they do not enter into a relationship that is a reasonable facsimile of marriage if not actual marriage as in the case of a relationship these days with many Farang. And yes for these men it is like hitting the lottery for them. They get validation, social status, physical and emotional support, and yes maybe financial security if their Farang is the right Nationality, they get a wife to move in with and *Bonus* if their significant other is Farang and not Thai they get an inheritance which they might not get if with a Thai. But be honest, isn't this what every person seeks in a marriage? Can you even begin to understand how important this really is?

 

So come on try to temper your contempt with some understanding of the culture. I am not here because of ignorance of the Country or the overall culture I am dealing with.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Bobbie Davies
addition

[farang51]

Bobbie, I do not think the others have a prejudice about men working in Thailand. As someone pointed out earlier, if this was a thread about girls, all the alarms would go off at the highest level.

Back to your problem. You are the older one, so why not be the grown up? Do not choose one of them; tell BOTH of them that you have to cool it down - you want to be friends only. After all, you only know each other from the internet. Then, when you come to Thailand, you meet them one at a time, and if you hit it off, fine, you go beyond friendship. Then, of course, you have to choose which one to meet first.

Perhaps in the meantime, try to read some of the stories about foreigners finding girls on the internet or in real life in Thailand. Try to compare the stories to your experience with the two guys. Being gay does not mean you are unscamable or that the guys are not interested in the possibility of easy money or an easier life rather than them being head over heals in love with a guy they only know from the internet.

[Bobbie Davies]

12 minutes ago, farang51 said:

Bobbie, I do not think the others have a prejudice about men working in Thailand. As someone pointed out earlier, if this was a thread about girls, all the alarms would go off at the highest level.

Back to your problem. You are the older one, so why not be the grown up? Do not choose one of them; tell BOTH of them that you have to cool it down - you want to be friends only. After all, you only know each other from the internet. Then, when you come to Thailand, you meet them one at a time, and if you hit it off, fine, you go beyond friendship. Then, of course, you have to choose which one to meet first.

Perhaps in the meantime, try to read some of the stories about foreigners finding girls on the internet or in real life in Thailand. Try to compare the stories to your experience with the two guys. Being gay does not mean you are unscamable or that the guys are not interested in the possibility of easy money or an easier life rather than them being head over heals in love with a guy they only know from the internet.

You farang have given a reasonable answer.

 

I disagree, some have shown a prejudice about men working in Thailand, mentioning English skills and the interestingness of a "hardworking" fisherman in Udon.

 

I have read everything out there regarding foreigners finding girls on the internet or in real life on the internet and real life in Thailand and have exhausted Youtube on the subject as well. I have indeed sought comparisons. And I do not by any means think I am unscamable. In fact, given a variety of factors gay men, myself included are often even more scamable than straight men.

 

Here's the thing. One is extremely reasonable, is much less jealous, and is seeing it as a friendship, a very good one and exclusively looking toward relationship but a friendship to build from and going from there. He is in no rush, he is not rushing me to Thailand, not rushing to come here really just interested to see where I come from, says no rush take time, plenty of time, no hurry, even says he has had rough time from last relationship so I must be willing to wait for him to get over the hurt and has to build trust as we build relationship over time, if I can't wait feel free to find another but that he commits to not look for another while giving us a chance, I did not ask for the commitment. He is also the one I am more drawn to. He is also the fisherman, has HIV, less worries on my part about that with no serodiscordancy, we touch on a much deeper intellectual level and have more intelligent conversations about much wider ranging subjects. Your idea would not only work with him it is already basically what we are doing. The other, the very jealous one, on the other hand, is the issue and the problem I am seeking the solution to and why I am wondering how to bow out gracefully. Frankly as one of the posters said if he is showing violence now... I am a little scared by this one.

[RJRS1301]

35 minutes ago, Bobbie Davies said:

I am a little scared by this one.

Why are you scared? You are not in Thailand, he is not in your home country, so unless you have "led" him along, just bow out.

Explain you are feeling uneasy about his reactions, and this makes you uncomfortable taking the "online" matter any further.

Be honest, upfront, and open, as you expect others to be. You have made up your mind, so follow through with it.

 

 

[onthemoon]

11 hours ago, 19DL86 said:

Could nt past the third page, tears were making typing too difficult.

 

Do you know what really sticks in my craw?  That if this was a guy talking this absolute claptrap regards a Thai girl, he'd get ripped to shreads.  But because this fella bats with the other hand - PC dictates he must be spared the abuse......Is that equality??

No; the (hypothetical) straight guy shouldn't be bashed either. The gay world is just more civilised than the straight world. Nothing we can do about them though, here in the gay forum. We certainly do not want to copy their behaviour.

[Bobbie Davies]

So,

 

I want to thank those on the forum who attempted to answer my question. I entered my question on the forum in the belief that there were those out there who had been in the position where things did not work out perfectly with a Thai mate and had found a way to bow out of their relationship gracefully. While that is not exactly what I received, I did go through a gradual thought curve in reading answers and thinking through responses. I will take your information under advisement.

 

For those of you who find that you cannot believe that my situation even exists or that these two men are who they say the are; I honestly did not consider you in the equation. Lies and deception are not my stock in trade, but apparently you are well versed in them. Dears I beg you do not stare into the abyss too long. In the words of Nu, one of those non-existent men; "Oh dear if we care what all the people in the world say and believe it will just give us a headache and make us unhappy, just knowing what we know is enough."

 

Some of you are just plain ignorant and hurtful and I am very sorry for you. You must have either very narrow minds or live very sad and bitter lives. You are on a Gay ThaiVisa Forum and chiming in with neither knowledge of gay Thailand nor Visa issues; assumingely just to have your ignorance immortalized for all to see and to cause hurt to all you can touch and to spread your ignorance like a disease. Please, Please crawl out from under your rock, or out of your bottle or wherever and try to have a happier more informed life. In the words of the Immortal Mame; "Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving."

 

To all of you. If things work out I hope to update the post to let you know how things went in the end. And hopefully though he is rather shy as you can tell from the quote, perhaps Nu will be willing to chime in as well (assuming of course that we are together).

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Bobbie Davies
correction

[saakura]

On 4/16/2020 at 8:04 PM, geisha said:

I don’t want to sound mean, but I think you may have fallen into a scam. Thai men in their work rarely speak any English at all for a start. It all seems too exaggerated to me. Sorry. 

Umm well he already explained that by saying that they picked up english from their sisters all of whom were married to westerners.

[tominbkk]

Go on a couple dates with them both when you get here.  You really don't know them til you meet them in person.

 

I think you are waaaaaaay overthinking this.

 

 

[tominbkk]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:10 AM, Bobbie Davies said:

Ken24, I agree with you. I am worried about that with one of them. I also tend to think that he is probably the one that I will have to break up with. I just don't know how to do it without some major fallout. His family actually owns a chunk of his village. I think he does love me but he is also flawed by Thai standards and is 44 going to be 45 in July. He is considered bad luck he has been married twice and his first wife was murdered after their divorce by her new husband. Second marriage only lasted 1 year. He also has arthritis that has deformed his hands so swollen the fingertips. All of his sisters have married Farang and he is the only unmarried/unrelationshiped. He lives in one of the sisters 3000000 Baht house while she lives in Scotland, she won't be returning to Thailand. Family owns two restaurants a food booth and 2 stores. I have other friends that live in the village. So face is involved. Sounds like a bad drama but it is true.

Why are you considering to to marry a straight guy?

[tominbkk]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:50 PM, Bobbie Davies said:

Jak, Just a moment. Just because I am not doing something the way you would do it does not mean I am not living in the real world. I personally know of many relationships that have started out by friends introducing the parties involved.

 

That said. This is just the start of any relationship. It is thought on all our parts that this is something that will take time, and getting to know each other in person as well as online is absolutely necessary. No one is expecting a readymade marriage when I get to Thailand. We are taking the relationship slow. I use the word relationship advisedly in that we have all committed that we are not looking for others outside of ourselves while we work out if this is for real. I am not building fantasies out of what is not there. We have discussed the realities of working as a teacher and being bounced around. Where they want to live, how they want to work keeping anything we have going while such bouncing around happens. We've even discussed closure once I'm there if they decide that I am not what they expect or they are not what I expect. What we might do If I decide if Thailand is not for me, etc... Remember though I have been to Thailand so I do have some idea. Yes it is always possible that I might find someone else looking around, unlikely if one of them stays the course, but possible, I just am not made that way. I will keep working on this until I know if it is permanent or not. You don't think I understand the strangeness of the mother shoving her son at me? I understand it as clearly as I would understand the almost impossible strangeness of a daughter marrying without the mother meeting the husband to be.

 

Thing is no one expected the Covid and so the timelines were all thrown off. Everyone is stressing and one of them is starting to show extreme jealousy cracks. Useless to say he would have shown them anyway, of course he would. the problem is I want to be able to bow out gracefully from one of these men. I am not asking for a diatribe on how purely internet romances are pie in the sky. Of course they are. But they can be a reasonable beginning. And to say that you should not have a relationship when you first get to Thailand is not necessarily true. Having someone you can depend on can be useful in a variety of ways. It is much better than going into Thailand blind with no support system whatsoever except for whatever potentially rinky dink outfit may have hired you.

Ok my advice is to ghost them boht, and start our by just getting here and having a good time without all of these expectations.  You will likely meet guys here and then if you don't like them you can unghost and continue your matchmaking game.

[mike787]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:36 PM, Lacessit said:

Is this a troll post to bring the homophobes on TV out of the woodwork? IMO it could be successful.

 I think it is...quarantine has rotted the brain.

[tominbkk]

On 4/17/2020 at 7:01 AM, RJRS1301 said:

Why are you scared? You are not in Thailand, he is not in your home country, so unless you have "led" him along, just bow out.

Explain you are feeling uneasy about his reactions, and this makes you uncomfortable taking the "online" matter any further.

Be honest, upfront, and open, as you expect others to be. You have made up your mind, so follow through with it.

 

 

you don't even have to bow out gracefully.  Just ghost him.  It's ok, he will find someone else.