UK tells doctors to treat COVID-19 patients without full-length gowns due to shortage: report

[Rookiescot]

26 minutes ago, vogie said:

So are you saying that all the blame belongs to the Tory Party, the WHO didn't declare it an emergency untill the 30th of Jan, China was less than honest with the infection. As I said, some european contries have had a higher death rate than ourselves and some of those countries have a more severe lockdown precedure. It would seem some people are using this crisis to make political gain, would you like to see a Jeremy Corbyn led government in charge right now because that is what would have happened if the Tories had not won the GE. BTW, the covid-19 is the enemy and not the people trying to do something about it.

Some countries have a higher death rate because they count all the people dying from corona. Not just the ones in hospital.

Corbyn is asinine to this conversation. He is not in charge.

[7by7]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

So are you saying that all the blame belongs to the Tory Party, the WHO didn't declare it an emergency untill the 30th of Jan,

From the linked to Times article:-

"It would not be until March 2 — another five weeks--that Johnson would attend a Cobra meeting about the coronavirus. But by then it was almost certainly too late. The virus had sneaked into our airports, our trains, our workplaces and our homes. Britain was on course for one of the worst infections of the most deadly virus to have hit the world in more than a century.

Last week, a senior adviser to Downing Street broke ranks and blamed the weeks of complacency on a failure of leadership in cabinet. In particular, the prime minister was singled out.

“There’s no way you’re at war if your PM isn’t there,” the adviser said. “And what you learn about Boris was he didn’t chair any meetings. He liked his country breaks. He didn’t work weekends. It was like working for an old-fashioned chief executive in a local authority 20 years ago. There was a real sense that he didn’t do urgent crisis planning. It was exactly like people feared he would be.”"

 

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Some countries have a higher death rate because they count all the people dying from corona. Not just the ones in hospital.

Corbyn is asinine to this conversation. He is not in charge.

Rookie I don't for one moment expect you to endorse the Tory Party, but let us not lose sight that in a yougov survey that 66% of Brits are satisfied with the way the government is handling this terrible crisis. And in that respect it makes no difference what you or I think, it is what our country thinks as a whole that entirely matters. 

[vinny41]

Reuters Special Report April 7th

Special Report: Johnson listened to his scientists about coronavirus - but they were slow to sound the alarm
LONDON (Reuters) - It was early spring when British scientists laid out the bald truth to their government. It was “highly likely,” they said, that there was now “sustained transmission” of COVID-19 in the United Kingdom.

If unconstrained and if the virus behaved as in China, up to four-fifths of Britons could be infected and one in a hundred might die, wrote the scientists, members of an official committee set up to model the spread of pandemic flu, on March 2. Their assessment didn’t spell it out, but that was a prediction of over 500,000 deaths in this nation of nearly 70 million.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-he...-idUKKBN21P1X8

[thaibeachlovers]

46 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Well the RCN supported Northern Irish nurses last year in their action, including striking, to achieve pay parity with their colleagues in the rest of the UK. 

 

However, even if the RCN, Unison and the other health workers unions were to call a strike, would they get much support from their members, let alone the general public? At this time of crisis, I very much doubt it. 

 

I agree, which is why I said they should give the government time to to rectify the situation. However, why should nurses have to go in harm's way? None of them agreed to commit suicide doing their job.

[7by7]

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

Rookie I don't for one moment expect you to endorse the Tory Party, but let us not lose sight that in a yougov survey that 66% of Brits are satisfied with the way the government is handling this terrible crisis. And in that respect it makes no difference what you or I think, it is what our country thinks as a whole that entirely matters. 

As you always demand links from others, I have to wonder why you have not provided one yourself. 

 

Here it is:-https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/04/17/support-government-holding-despite-increasing-crit

 

Could your reason for not providing the link be that it shows support for the government on their handling of the pandemic is, according to the poll, falling?

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As you always demand links from others, I have to wonder why you have not provided one yourself. 

 

Here it is:-https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/04/17/support-government-holding-despite-increasing-crit

 

Could your reason for not providing the link be that it shows support for the government on their handling of the pandemic is, according to the poll, falling?

 

[7by7]

@vinny41,

 

That article is basically saying Johnson listened to the advisors telling him what he wanted to hear whilst ignoring all the others. 

 

But nevertheless, that was the beginning of March and here we are in the latter half of April and the government are still making feeble excuses for the lack of PPE for health workers. Still not contacting the many British companies ready, willing and able to make up this shortfall. 

[7by7]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree, which is why I said they should give the government time to to rectify the situation. However, why should nurses have to go in harm's way? None of them agreed to commit suicide doing their job.

I think we are in broad agreement on this issue. 

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

@vinny41,

 

That article is basically saying Johnson listened to the advisors telling him what he wanted to hear whilst ignoring all the others. 

 

But nevertheless, that was the beginning of March and here we are in the latter half of April and the government are still making feeble excuses for the lack of PPE for health workers. Still not contacting the many British companies ready, willing and able to make up this shortfall. 

No its not it clear states He was listening to the Medical experts 

[vinny41]

Swedish Epidemiologist Johan Giesecke: Why Lockdowns Are The Wrong Policy

UnHeard: Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based.
The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only.
This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product."
The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ng_policy.html

[7by7]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

The graph shows a definite downward trend. It may have levelled off temporarily, but it's still heading downward. 

 

It is very significant that you chose not include the sentence immediately below the graph: the one which says support for the government has fallen from 72%. 

[7by7]

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No its not it clear states He was listening to the Medical experts 

Some medical experts. It also makes it clear he was ignoring others. 

 

But as I said, nevertheless, that was the beginning of March and here we are in the latter half of April and the government are still making feeble excuses for the lack of PPE for health workers. Still not contacting the many British companies ready, willing and able to make up this shortfall. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

The graph shows a definite downward trend. It may have levelled off temporarily, but it's still heading downward. 

 

It is very significant that you chose not include the sentence immediately below the graph: the one which says support for the government has fallen from 72%. 

The graph shows you what you want it to show you, 72% to 66% is not a significant drop. The government are still being trusted despite how much you want to twist it.

 

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Some medical experts. It also makes it clear he was ignoring others. 

 

But as I said, nevertheless, that was the beginning of March and here we are in the latter half of April and the government are still making feeble excuses for the lack of PPE for health workers. Still not contacting the many British companies ready, willing and able to make up this shortfall. 

And Its Clear that you can have a room full of Medical experts and they wll have conflicting views on what action to take hence Sweden taking a approach that the Uk started out with but then Medical experts recommend a different course of action

[Canuck1966]

On 4/18/2020 at 8:25 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

UK garment manufacturers have the capability to produce these supplies - Guess What, the Government are not even talking to them:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/16/government-ignores-uk-textiles-firms-desperate-to-make-ppe

You know very well that everything has to be made to a specific size and to a specific safety standard. 

There are loads of firms that could make various items but it wouldn't pass the elf and safety criteria & thus won't be allowed to be worn in the workplace

The Guardian again being disingenuous 

[Canuck1966]

These are WHO guidelines too, the govt are just passing on the information

[Canuck1966]

On 4/18/2020 at 8:41 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Trying to procure PPE from already made and prepared stock is absolutely the right thing to do.

 

Where is the action to secure ongoing supplies from the UK’s in country garment suppliers?

 

The article describes exactly how the Government are failing to learn the lesson you refer to.

There are 200 trusts with 200 CEOs in the NHS, it's their job not the govt.

You can stop hammering the UK govt for once?

Why do you have to politicise everything?

[Canuck1966]

On 4/18/2020 at 12:23 PM, DefaultName said:

I don't "get" this.

 

Engineering factories can re-tool and start producing complex ventilators in days, but a plastic bag manufacturer can't convert to make gowns?  A garment manufacturer can't make masks?

 

Am I missing something here?

yes , everything has to be made to specific standards and be approved by those bodies

[7by7]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

The graph shows you what you want it to show you, 72% to 66% is not a significant drop. The government are still being trusted despite how much you want to twist it.

 

Twist, turn and wriggle all you want; you produced the graph and it definitely shows support is falling. 

 

A drop from 72% to 66% in just three weeks is significant. If the trend continues it could be a lot lower next time. 

 

Mind you, with a sample of a mere 0.004% of the adult population, how representative is it?

 

You are aware that YouGov is a commercial company and their respondants, of whom I used to be one, are all self selecting, aren't you? 

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

There are 200 trusts with 200 CEOs in the NHS, it's their job not the govt.

You can stop hammering the UK govt for once?

Why do you have to politicise everything?

Tell that to Cummings and the array of his political puppets who every day tell us how they are providing as much PPE as they can. 

[vogie]

When you continually attack posters and especially attack me because you don't like my avatar it must be the time to put you back on ignore.

 

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

So? 

 

Your avatar and many of your posts indicate your fondness for the philandering buffoon. 

 

It's he, not Cable, who is Prime Minister and so ultimately responsible.

 

[baansgr]

On 4/18/2020 at 7:27 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Truly mind boggling. Where are the nursing unions on this tragic situation?

Unions haven't had any power since a certain biatch crushed them in the 80s..nothing more than administrators of orders given by organisations.

[7by7]

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

When you continually attack posters and especially attack me because you don't like my avatar it must be the time to put you back on ignore.

 

 

Certainly easier for you than actually answering questions about your posts! 

 

You brought Cable into the topic, even though he isn't even an MP any more! 

 

All I did was ask you why.

[Surelynot]

There might be a shortage of PPE, but there is no shortage of visitors from Covid-19 infected nations.

 

Attached is Heathrow arrivals Sunday/Monday

 

HOW HAS THIS BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN? 

[7by7]

31 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

You know very well that everything has to be made to a specific size and to a specific safety standard. 

There are loads of firms that could make various items but it wouldn't pass the elf and safety criteria & thus won't be allowed to be worn in the workplace

The Guardian again being disingenuous 

 

31 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

These are WHO guidelines too, the govt are just passing on the information

 

27 minutes ago, Canuck1966 said:

yes , everything has to be made to specific standards and be approved by those bodies

 

The British companies offering their services and being ignored are not a bunch of backstreet sweatshops. They are reputable companies used to manufacturing garments in a wide variety of sizes. They are also very capable of meeting the standard required. 

 

Whatever they produce, it's got to be better than wearing makeshift PPE made out of binbags! 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/08/exclusive-three-nurses-forced-wear-bin-bags-ppe-shortage-test/

[7by7]

2 hours ago, Surelynot said:

There might be a shortage of PPE, but there is no shortage of visitors from Covid-19 infected nations.

 

Attached is Heathrow arrivals Sunday/Monday

 

HOW HAS THIS BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPEN? 

 

HMG is advising Brits abroad to return to the UK by commercial flights wherever possible. A little bit of research will show you that most if not all, of the passengers on these flights are returning Brits. 

 

All passenger aircraft carry cargo. It is possible that some of those arrivals are empty of passengers and carrying cargo only. Others may not be passenger carriers at all, just cargo only. 

 

To bring this back on topic, some of that cargo is almost certainly PPE! 

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, vogie said:

So are you saying that all the blame belongs to the Tory Party, the WHO didn't declare it an emergency untill the 30th of Jan, China was less than honest with the infection. As I said, some european contries have had a higher death rate than ourselves and some of those countries have a more severe lockdown precedure. It would seem some people are using this crisis to make political gain, would you like to see a Jeremy Corbyn led government in charge right now because that is what would have happened if the Tories had not won the GE. BTW, the covid-19 is the enemy and not the people trying to do something about it.

How long between Jan 30th and March 2nd?,  the head was still in the sand and it was March 23rd before it was acknowledged the enemy had already taken over.

 

Boris Johnson said the government was well prepared to deal with the disease and added that people ‘should go about business as usual’ 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2020/mar/02/boris-johnson-says-coronavirus-is-likely-to-spread-video

 

South Korea on the other hand reacted immediately. South Korea suffered quite badly from MERS and others should have taken note of the lessons learned.

 

Just one week after the country reported its first case on January 20, the government ordered factories to start producing coronavirus test kits en masse. Within two weeks, the country was producing more than 100,000 test kits a day.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2020/04/03/South-Korea-conquered-coronavirus-without-a-lockdown-a-model-to-follow-

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

How long between Jan 30th and March 2nd?,  the head was still in the sand and it was March 23rd before it was acknowledged the enemy had already taken over.

 

Boris Johnson said the government was well prepared to deal with the disease and added that people ‘should go about business as usual’ 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2020/mar/02/boris-johnson-says-coronavirus-is-likely-to-spread-video

 

South Korea on the other hand reacted immediately. South Korea suffered quite badly from MERS and others should have taken note of the lessons learned.

 

Just one week after the country reported its first case on January 20, the government ordered factories to start producing coronavirus test kits en masse. Within two weeks, the country was producing more than 100,000 test kits a day.

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2020/04/03/South-Korea-conquered-coronavirus-without-a-lockdown-a-model-to-follow-

You are beginning to sound like Richard Burgon cherry picking a country from the other side of the world, why not mention N Korea, they havn't had one reported death or even any reported cases. It gets very tiresome with the usual suspects spouting that Britain is bad and everybody else is good, we all know you hate this Tory Government, you don't have to keep reminding us.

Lets look a little closer to home shall we and look at the fatalities caused by this terrible virus, this is deaths per one million population, Belgium 470, Spain 428, Italy 384, France 296 and the UK 228. So looking at those figures the UK could be doing a lot worse wouldn't you say.

Why don't you wait for this catastrophe to end before you start your political point scoring, we are all in this together, post mortems can follow later.

 

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Maybe the reason for the difference is because, as reported and discussed elsewhere, the UK government is only realising the figures for hospital deaths. Those occuring elsewhere, such as in care homes, are being ignored in the daily briefings by our government. 

Others reasons are that UK is later in the curve, different lifestyles in different countries (more intimite family life in southern countries eg), more testing in certain countries, etc.