Can an agency create a contract that goes against Thai law?

[teacherclaire]

    Hello teachers,

 

                  I could work for an agency, but after reading their contract, I was wondering if that's legal.

 

   1. Neither sick leave days, nor business days.

   2. No Thai social security, no other insurance provided.

   3. If I'd be sick on a Friday, or a Monday, they wouldn't pay for the weekend before or after. 

   4. Starting salary for a native speaker with a degree is 2 K more than a non native speaker without a degree would receive.

   5. If the borders reopen and I leave Thailand, I have to pay out of my own pocket and won't receive a salary.

I do not know how teaching in Thailand really is, but I've done some voluntary teaching. 

 

Is such a contract really binding? 

 

      

[uncleP]

Without a work permit you would be illegal and they would risk 100,000 b fine. But in essence you get no protection  working illegally.  The fact that non native speakers are paid almost the same shows you they are only interested in the money. However all schools of all types are currently closed and that includes language schools.

[teacherclaire]

1 minute ago, uncleP said:

Without a work permit you would be illegal and they would risk 100,000 b fine. But in essence you get no protection  working illegally.  The fact that non native speakers are paid almost the same shows you they are only interested in the money. However all schools of all types are currently closed and that includes language schools.

I have two degrees and would even receive a teacher's license.

 

 I'd never work without a work permit, but I've heard that certain agencies let foreigners work on tourist visas.

 

I understand that it's all about money and I hope that certain agencies are soon out of business and hire directly.

 

    

 

   

[baansgr]

Living the dream...even the coolies had better rights during the British Empire in the 19th century..

[Surelynot]

Anything in a contract that is illegal makes that part of the contract null and void.

[KhaoYai]

The title of your thread is an answer in itself.

[teacherclaire]

13 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Anything in a contract that is illegal makes that part of the contract null and void.

I have a friend who worked for a well-known agency from Bangkok that ends with a C. 

 

I have enough information from people I do not know well enough to trust them, so I was hoping to learn some about these agencies that suc_. 

 

When I've read the contract she's signed, I had the feeling to throw up.

 

 She told me that she had to work with pedos and other weird people that made the daily teaching a nightmare.

 

The agency created a "teacher's profile" for the school, and all their foreign employees were top of the notch educated employees.

 

The truth was different. Plumber helpers became highly experienced English teachers, and even those from an English speaking country had no idea about grammar, sentence structure, or any psychological knowledge about kids. 

 

Then I had to realize that precisely these people who are so weak in their language and often complicated to understand were the ones who complained about the Thai English teachers' and non-native English speakers' skills. 

 

 Do not throw with stones when sitting in a glasshouse is my advice for them. 

 

 

 

   

Edited April 29, 2020 by teacherclaire

[teacherclaire]

4 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

The title of your thread is an answer in itself.

Fair. If you don't like to discuss it without giving me any advice I'll not be able to pull a good friend out of an insane situation, which was also the reason for my post. 

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, teacherclaire said:

I have a friend who worked for w well-known agency from Bangkok.

 

When I've read the contract she's signed, I had the feeling to throw up.

 

 She told me that she had to work with pedos and other weird people that made the daily teaching a nightmare.

 

The agency created a "Teacher's profile" for the school, and all their foreign employees were top of the notch educated employees.

 

The truth was different. Plumber helpers became English teachers, and even those from an English speaking country had no idea about grammar, sentence structure, or any psychological knowledge of kids. 

 

Then I had to realize that exactly these people who are so weak in their language and often very difficult to understand where the ones who complained about the Thai English teachers'  and non-native English speakers' skills. 

 

 Do not throw with stones when sitting in a glasshouse is my advice for them. 

 

 

 

   

I would suspect Thai employment protection laws are almost non-existent and any that do exist are designed to be interpreted to the benefit of the employer. Easy for me to say, but I would walk. There must be other opportunities that provide better employment. Nothing will change so the choice is stay or leave.

[n00dle]

1 minute ago, Surelynot said:

I would suspect Thai employment protection laws are almost non-existent and any that do exist are designed to be interpreted to the benefit of the employer. Easy for me to say, but I would walk. There must be other opportunities that provide better employment. Nothing will change so the choice is stay or leave.

you would suspect very, very wrong, i certainly hope you arent giving anyone advice.

thai employment law is very much in favour of the workers and i know of no one without a justified dispute who has not won significant compensation for an employer breach

[teacherclaire]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

I would suspect Thai employment protection laws are almost non-existent and any that do exist are designed to be interpreted to the benefit of the employer. Easy for me to say, but I would walk. There must be other opportunities that provide better employment. Nothing will change so the choice is stay or leave.

Thanks for your time. I'd never ever sign a contract with such an agency. i can easily get a job working directly for a school with all the goodies that come with it.

 

  I'm only trying to help a friend who's less qualified on paper. Her English isn't bad, but she doesn't have a TL and she's worked for a couple of years and the waivers are used up.

 

   

 

  

[teacherclaire]

2 minutes ago, n00dle said:

you would suspect very, very wrong, i certainly hope you arent giving anyone advice.

thai employment law is very much in favour of the workers and i know of no one without a justified dispute who has not won significant compensation for an employer breach

Thank you very much. From what I know, it's usually in favour of the employee. 

[cyril sneer]

8 minutes ago, teacherclaire said:

Thanks for your time. I'd never ever sign a contract with such an agency. i can easily get a job working directly for a school with all the goodies that come with it.

 

  I'm only trying to help a friend who's less qualified on paper. Her English isn't bad, but she doesn't have a TL and she's worked for a couple of years and the waivers are used up.

 

   

 

  

who has said her waivers are up? I know of teachers having 5 different waivers in a 5 year period

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, teacherclaire said:

Is such a contract really binding? 

only if you accept it ..... anybody can write whatever they want in a contract but the person receiving such contract  doesn't have to agree and accept

[teacherclaire]

2 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

who has said her waivers are up? I know of teachers having 5 different waivers in a 5 year period

She had four already and wants to get away from the agency. 

[teacherclaire]

2 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

only if you accept it ..... anybody can write whatever they want in a contract but the person receiving such contract  doesn't have to agree and accept

Would you read my question again, please? 

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, teacherclaire said:

worked for a couple of years and the waivers are used up.

 

1 hour ago, teacherclaire said:

She had four already

I guess teaching just is not for her. 4 schools in "a couple of years". Time to move on.

[norfolkandchance]

1 hour ago, teacherclaire said:

Thanks for your time. I'd never ever sign a contract with such an agency. i can easily get a job working directly for a school with all the goodies that come with it.

 

  I'm only trying to help a friend who's less qualified on paper. Her English isn't bad, but she doesn't have a TL and she's worked for a couple of years and the waivers are used up.

 

   

 

  

‘ Her English isn’t bad. But she doesn’t have a TL’, and she teaches.

God help her students.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

You've probably heard it before, but agencies are best avoided. Nothing they say, verbally or in a contract, is to be trusted. I've been blatantly lied to and have had wages withheld. You're certainly welcome to say "you can't do this, this is illegal", but without connections or money to spend on lawyers, you're not likely getting anywhere.

 

I've had one agency point at the contract and say "see, it says you can't do that, you signed it". I said uh, that's not what it says at all, and that's not what I did. Whatever, they're right and I'm wrong. Haha. What can you do. My being out of line might affect their kickback, and they can't stand the thought of me costing them a few baht. Their concerns certainly aren't education related.

 

The only way out of this, I've found, is to quit working for agencies. Use your credentials and the experience you've acquired to get directly hired at a good school, which unfortunately in Thailand is likely to be international or private. Hopefully you've built good working relationships with some of your Thai coteachers. Use them as references. Don't expect to use your supervisors, because most likely they have a relationship with the agency.

 

Right now it's a buyer's market for teaching jobs in Thailand, because many foreigners have left, and right now no one else can come in. Don't sell yourself short. Good luck.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, teacherclaire said:

Fair. If you don't like to discuss it without giving me any advice I'll not be able to pull a good friend out of an insane situation, which was also the reason for my post. 

All I'm trying to say is that if the contract goes against the law then its illegal and any illegal clauses won't stand up.

Edited April 29, 2020 by KhaoYai

[Scott]

Inflammatory post removed.   Keep it civil.

 

[teacherclaire]

On 4/29/2020 at 5:40 PM, Mavideol said:

only if you accept it ..... anybody can write whatever they want in a contract but the person receiving such contract  doesn't have to agree and accept

If you don't sign such a contract, you won't have a job. The lies already start at well-known websites like ajarn.com, where certain agencies are seeking English teachers.

"No degree needed, we'll help you to receive a work permit" and other <deleted>. 
But in reality, some of them have to leave the country to apply for a Non-B at a consulate or an embassy. 

 

  That happened to an Aussie friend, and he told the officer that his agency didn't tell him that he needed one.

 

He went outside, called his agency, they produced a fake degree which they then sent to him per e-mail.

 

He came back the next morning, applied for his visa and all was fine. But........

If that's not highly illegal, then I don't know what to say.

I would never work on a fake degree; one day, the bottom will drop out.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by teacherclaire

[Mambowoman]

3 hours ago, teacherclaire said:

If you don't sign such a contract, you won't have a job. The lies already start at well-known websites like ajarn.com, where certain agencies are seeking English teachers.

"No degree needed, we'll help you to receive a work permit" and other <deleted>. 
But in reality, some of them have to leave the country to apply for a Non-B at a consulate or an embassy. 

 

  That happened to an Aussie friend, and he told the officer that his agency didn't tell him that he needed one.

 

He went outside, called his agency, they produced a fake degree which they then sent to him per e-mail.

 

He came back the next morning, applied for his visa and all was fine. But........

If that's not highly illegal, then I don't know what to say.

I would never work on a fake degree; one day, the bottom will drop out.

 

 

 

 

Oh Claire. That's terrible.

 

More power to you. 

[Mavideol]

17 hours ago, teacherclaire said:

If you don't sign such a contract, you won't have a job. The lies already start at well-known websites like ajarn.com, where certain agencies are seeking English teachers.

"No degree needed, we'll help you to receive a work permit" and other <deleted>. 
But in reality, some of them have to leave the country to apply for a Non-B at a consulate or an embassy. 

 

  That happened to an Aussie friend, and he told the officer that his agency didn't tell him that he needed one.

 

He went outside, called his agency, they produced a fake degree which they then sent to him per e-mail.

 

He came back the next morning, applied for his visa and all was fine. But........

If that's not highly illegal, then I don't know what to say.

I would never work on a fake degree; one day, the bottom will drop out.

 

 

 

 

and your points is... did I spoke about agencies being or acting as legal or illegal? no, please read what I said/wrote

[teacherclaire]

 I fully understand that some especially older teachers without degrees do not have other opportunities than signing up for such an agency.

 

    But if some of these illegally operating businesses "would disappear," wouldn't that mean that more schools would have to hire directly?

 

   I feel sorry for those who have to support a family, but neither have an insurance nor a salary in the summer break and October/November/ midterm. 

 

    It doesn't make much sense when you read that they offer 29,000 baht for a non native English speaker without a degree and only 2,000 baht more for a native English speaker with a (real) degree.

 

  Who in their right mind would sign such a contract? My friend sent me his contract and it turned my stomach around when I read it. 

 

 

 

    

     

 

  

 

      

Edited May 4, 2020 by teacherclaire

[Monomial]

All contracts will include a clause called "separability". Basically this means that any clause found to be illegal or in violation of a law does not invalidate the rest of the contract.

 

Armed with this, contracts can basically say anything they want. If one statement is later found to be in conflict with a law, the law will simply take precedence for that one particular aspect. However, it will be up to you to bring the case to court in order to prove each specific clause that is in violation of the law. It is not automatic. It would need to be proven during a lawsuit over a contract dispute.

 

So the answer to your question is both yes and no. You absolutely can create a contract in violation of the law. You can try to enforce the contract also. But if someone is smart and knows the law, they can go to court and get a clause invalidated.  How much money do you have to fight each invalid term and/or clause of the contract you are signing?

 

 

 

 

 

[steven100]

In thailand it's who you know, a contract is not worth the paper it's written on ... I've seen it and been there.

If you want things to go right it's a matter of slow discussion and tea money ....  

[Sujo]

I see the topic going off on a tangent of who is or isnt qualified and the standard of teachers. So let me answer the op before it goes off the rails.

 

Anything legal or not can be in a contract. Any part that is illegal may not void the whole contract as such. It depends how bad the contract is, if bad the court can just void the whole thing.

 

The real issue is how can you get a remedy for the illegal act. Going thru court may not be the easiest way. Maybe dept of labor is best. 

 

 

[teacherclaire]

3 hours ago, Sujo said:

I see the topic going off on a tangent of who is or isnt qualified and the standard of teachers. So let me answer the op before it goes off the rails.

 

Anything legal or not can be in a contract. Any part that is illegal may not void the whole contract as such. It depends how bad the contract is, if bad the court can just void the whole thing.

 

The real issue is how can you get a remedy for the illegal act. Going thru court may not be the easiest way. Maybe dept of labor is best. 

 

 

                   I want to thank you very much for your input.

          Is it allowed to post such a contract here, of course without any names, or any other stipulations that people would know what agency it is? 

 

          In my own humble opinion, it's time to look at specific parts of a contract nobody in the West would sign.

It's not about blaming or shaming a particular agency now.

 

It's about illegal practices some agencies are using  to make money regardless if the students learn anything.

  It would be great to be allowed to post such a contract to discuss specific passages. 

 

  Dear moderation, please let me know if that can be helpful for foreigners in Thailand who have to rely on the MERCY of some money-hungry people, considered as a valid way to discuss existing contracts that do not seem to have any validity.

 

  Thank you very much for your time and consideration. 

   I'm doing this for a good friend who's trapped here with a wife and three kids. I feel so sorry for him and I'm aware that he's not the only one in a similar situation. Education isn't free here.

 

I could help him out with a couple of thousand baht, but I'm aware that he won't get paid before August.

 

I have job offers in better countries than Thailand and might rethink my situation if I'm going to stay here. But China, or Vietnam wouldn't be an option. 

 

I prefer less money if the school is a pro foreigner institution over a school that only wants to have white faces to satisfy the parents. 

 

A Filipino teacher at my former school upset me by saying that I can sell my white skin again by signing a new contract.

 

The same person couldn't have a simple conversation with a native English speaker.

No bashing involved, but I felt miserable when somebody told me that i could sell my skin!

 

I'm not selling anything to anybody here. I see myself as an excellent teacher with a lot of experience. Unfortunately, does my friend have a lot of experience, but he doesn't have a BA.

 

He's a better teacher than most people I know who are certified teachers by the Ministry of Education/Bangkok.

 

I've watched him teaching high school students and all of the students were engaged in his lesson.  

 

But he's not qualified to teach English anymore, because his "provisional licenses" are used up? 

 

 I have concluded that some schools only want some white faces regardless if they can teach English, or not.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by teacherclaire

[Scott]

If you wish to post a copy of a contract it cannot have any information which would identify the school/agency, where it is located or any personal information.   `