Landscaping and planting a lawn

[MarcIssan]

This topic is specifically about planting a lawn here in Udon Thani in a full-sun location.

 

After considerable research I started emailing golf course maintenance and greens care /design companies in Thailand and through a series of referrals I thankfully ended up at Golf Course Specialists in Bangkok.  www.Golffcoursespecialists.net.  Don't judge them by their website alone. They are a real company and have been fantastic to deal with.

 

Just before that, a golf course consultant suggested Nuan Noi grass AKA Manila Grass for full sun and he suggested I call Queen at Golf Course Specialists because she had high quality grass and spoke English.  I saw Nuan Noi at many of the garden shops but the quality was poor and the grass rolls were very thin with little to no sod attached.  I couldn't find any quantity of 'green' grass as most had turned yellowish.

 

Anyway, Queen is the Thai owner but speaks English very well.  Her number is 089 499 8962.  I ordered 300 square meters for 20 baht per M2.  Delivery and installation was additional for a total of 50 baht /m2 all in. When the grass arrived, so did 9 guys all ready to do a final rake of the area, they tossed on some dung of some sort, and went to work.  Within an hour they were done.  That was 2 days ago.

 

Today I called Queen regarding watering, fertilizer and spreader, mowing, and general care.  Since they are doing another project in Udon, she offered to have her foreman drive the 25 km to come here with fertilizer and spreader for my first feeding and to help sand the joints of the rolls at no cost.  Also she is a great source of information regarding grassing and care.

 

If your project includes large areas of grass and you either just need supplies or you want the full project including site preparation and irrigation done for you, I highly recommend this person and her company.

 

 

[Halfaboy]

Did they come all the way down from bangkok to lay 300 m2 grass rolls in Udon ?

 

Was the new grass rolled up to make sure that there would be contact between the new grass and the old surface ?

 

Hope it all works out well....

[northsouthdevide]

Looks beautiful. 

We've had issues with our water supply lately, but even when water was aplenty it didn't look half as nice as yours. 

 

[Michael Hare]

Congratulations Marc on getting a first class Nuan Noi (Zoysia matrella) laid done.  I think your costs of 50 baht per sq m were reasonable. I agree with you that these days hardly any sod is attached to the roots of the Zoysia turfs. That can create problem in getting the turfs to strike.

 

I have had a bit of experience over the years with Zoysia lawns. In the beginning the turfs must be rolled heavily to press the turfs firmly into the soil. Most Thais do not do this. I hope your 9-man team firmly pressed the turfs into the soil in order for the turfs to strike well.

 

Now, that is the easy part. All newly laid turf lawns always look great in the beginning. It is the maintenance and management thereafterwards which is the most difficult. Heavy rains in July-September can water-log patches in your lawn. Then in Udorn you will have the long dry season from October to April which requires frequent watering. 

 

Mowing management is very important. I notice many lawns become a hay paddock before cutting is made. Other lawns are cut close to ground level. Cutting height varies from season to season. The same with fertiliser. It varies. What about lime? Soils in northeast Thailand need lime. 

 

Zoysia also becomes sod-bound with age, and will require some work to aerate the sods.

 

Anyway, all the best. Try to find a reel mower so when you cut your lawn you will get nice stripes in the lawn. 

[Halfaboy]

2 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

I have had a bit of experience over the years

 

I read your comment with great interest. Could you please advise which type of fertiliser would be most suitable for grass on limish ground. The grass was planted (?) around 12 years ago and it definitely needs something. I was thinking of first some kalium and after that other fertiser on a regular basis. Would 15-15-15 do you think ?

 

Thanks for your advise...

[Michael Hare]

3 hours ago, Halfaboy said:

 

I read your comment with great interest. Could you please advise which type of fertiliser would be most suitable for grass on limish ground. The grass was planted (?) around 12 years ago and it definitely needs something. I was thinking of first some kalium and after that other fertiser on a regular basis. Would 15-15-15 do you think ?

 

Thanks for your advise...

I don't really like to give avice from a distance. If the lawn is 12 years old it may be becoming very sod-bound. Bumpy when one walks across the lawn. It is now the beginning of the wet season. I would give it a hard, close mowing. The lawn will look very brown but after some cdecent rain it will green up, A normal NPK fertiliser (15:15:15) is normally okay. But these isaan soils are usually very K deficit and so a NPK fertilser with higher K would be beneficial Try 13:13:28. And maybe after every two months apply some urea but not too much. Urea will green up the top leaves but it is quickly is leached from the soil. Maybe sprinkle some sand across the top of the grass. This will make the grass creep out sideways more.

[VocalNeal]

Aeration is never wasted. +1 to the sand if there are any low spots.

[Greenside]

I've got a lot of lawn and been fighting an invasion of White Grubs for the past three seasons.  I've used Sevin up to now and the results have been less than stellar but I see a Scotts product called Grub-EX getting good reviews and would like to try it this year.  Problem is I can't locate a Scotts distributor - does anyone know who might carry it?  Anywhere in Thailand is OK.

[Michael Hare]

I can not help you with geeting hold of Grub-EX pesticide. What about trying lime? Many grubs hate lime as it burns them. Apply a very heavy dose of lime. Blanket the lawn with it so it looks like frost. About 1 kg per 5 sq m. I use a lot of lime on my lawns to raise the pH and besides an improved pH, I have no grubs.

[Ombra]

On 5/5/2020 at 10:46 AM, Michael Hare said:

Congratulations Marc on getting a first class Nuan Noi (Zoysia matrella) laid done.  I think your costs of 50 baht per sq m were reasonable. I agree with you that these days hardly any sod is attached to the roots of the Zoysia turfs. That can create problem in getting the turfs to strike.

 

I have had a bit of experience over the years with Zoysia lawns. In the beginning the turfs must be rolled heavily to press the turfs firmly into the soil. Most Thais do not do this. I hope your 9-man team firmly pressed the turfs into the soil in order for the turfs to strike well.

 

Now, that is the easy part. All newly laid turf lawns always look great in the beginning. It is the maintenance and management thereafterwards which is the most difficult. Heavy rains in July-September can water-log patches in your lawn. Then in Udorn you will have the long dry season from October to April which requires frequent watering. 

 

Mowing management is very important. I notice many lawns become a hay paddock before cutting is made. Other lawns are cut close to ground level. Cutting height varies from season to season. The same with fertiliser. It varies. What about lime? Soils in northeast Thailand need lime. 

 

Zoysia also becomes sod-bound with age, and will require some work to aerate the sods.

 

Anyway, all the best. Try to find a reel mower so when you cut your lawn you will get nice stripes in the lawn. 

When would you say is the best time to lay turf? Which part of which season? With thanks.

[CGW]

On 5/5/2020 at 4:44 PM, Greenside said:

I've got a lot of lawn and been fighting an invasion of White Grubs for the past three seasons.

I got an infestation of white grubs last year, i was advised to drown them! I flooded the area they were in and have not had a problem since!

[Greenside]

Thanks but my areas are too numerous and spread around a large plot to consider that.

[Michael Hare]

15 hours ago, Ombra said:

When would you say is the best time to lay turf? Which part of which season? With thanks.

Lawns can be laid anytime in northeast Thailand. In the dry season, one has to water and water to keep the turfs growing well until they root down. We laid a large area of lawn around our new warehouse in November. We had no rain until May. But it took a lot of watering to keep the grass growing. It now looks great.

 

Laiding in the wet season is a bit easier, but if heavy rains come before the roots root down well, erosion on slopes can occur. 

[MarcIssan]

Thanks for the replies.  Yes I was very happy with the quality and the work done.  It looked great but the next day the temps got to 104 and much of it turned brown and the heat lasted a full week.  I watered 4 times a day and still it got worse.  Finally the Zoysia started rooting and turning more green.

 

The grass company had a football pitch project in Udon and were in town for that.  For sure that was the reason the crew showed up not just because of my small patch.  They came back 10 days later to fertilize and top treat with sand and it has greened up considerably.

 

But now the grassy weeds are coming up and I am not going to hand pull them so herbicides will be considered.  I just spot sprayed the areas with Trimec 2,4-d hoping to kill some off but MSMA and trifloxysulfuron are also recommended but I cannot find that here in Udon.

 

I am mowing  twice a week now with all the rain but hopefully I can get down to once a week.  I have tried to train the nephews in the art of lawn mowing but they just cannot grasp the concept of overlapping cuts and I end up with missed areas everywhere.  Tomorrow will be their second attempt so hopefully their results improve.

 

The grass seller suggested fertilizer that is 16-20-0 with a weekly application for 8 weeks then switch to a 15-15-0 for 8 weeks then back and forth.  This is resulting in much more hands on work than I expected and now I appreciate the work involved to keep golf greens so nice.

 

[Michael Hare]

1 hour ago, MarcIssan said:

Thanks for the replies.  Yes I was very happy with the quality and the work done.  It looked great but the next day the temps got to 104 and much of it turned brown and the heat lasted a full week.  I watered 4 times a day and still it got worse.  Finally the Zoysia started rooting and turning more green.

 

The grass company had a football pitch project in Udon and were in town for that.  For sure that was the reason the crew showed up not just because of my small patch.  They came back 10 days later to fertilize and top treat with sand and it has greened up considerably.

 

But now the grassy weeds are coming up and I am not going to hand pull them so herbicides will be considered.  I just spot sprayed the areas with Trimec 2,4-d hoping to kill some off but MSMA and trifloxysulfuron are also recommended but I cannot find that here in Udon.

 

I am mowing  twice a week now with all the rain but hopefully I can get down to once a week.  I have tried to train the nephews in the art of lawn mowing but they just cannot grasp the concept of overlapping cuts and I end up with missed areas everywhere.  Tomorrow will be their second attempt so hopefully their results improve.

 

The grass seller suggested fertilizer that is 16-20-0 with a weekly application for 8 weeks then switch to a 15-15-0 for 8 weeks then back and forth.  This is resulting in much more hands on work than I expected and now I appreciate the work involved to keep golf greens so nice.

 

I am not sure if Zoysia will tolerate those herbicides. Your suggested fertilizers of 16-20-0 and 15-15-0 contains no K. You need K in these poor soils. Mowing twice a week for a new lawn is over doing it. The tropical Zoysia lawns are nothing like the ryegrass, fine fescue or fine bentgrass lawns in cool temperate countries. 

[MarcIssan]

Michael,

 

Thanks for the comment.  You may be right and I guess time will tell.  I don't know the Zoysia grass so any new information is welcome.

 

I am actually following the advice from the owner (Queen) from Turf Grass Specialists which is where I bought the sod and of Micah Woods from Asian Turfgrass, a golf course consultant.  Both are golf course specialists which is how I made contact and each somehow deals with a variety of grasses for golf courses and football pitches.

 

Queen suggested a 2x weekly mowing to force the Zoysia to grow out and not up and she also recommended the fertilizer mix.  Her project manager brought the first bag of 16-20-0 and suggested the 46-0-0 which I think is way too high in N.  None of what they suggest has any K in the mix which surprises me.

 

Micah suggested the herbicide mix since that his what his golf course customers use.  He also suggested that mowing could reduce to maybe 10 per year once the grass filled in and watering gets to normal.  Before the rains I was watering 2-4 times a day but now that the roots have developed and the weather is cooler here and the rains have come almost daily, I cut watering to 1x / day unless it rains.  Micah also said that watering and fertilizer should be adjusted to control growth and once the roots go deep, watering could be just 2x per week.  Growth adjusts to water supply with wet months requiring more often mowing.  He suggested 15-15-15 and alternating to 16-20-0  for 2 months on for each which is what I'll do.

 

Both offer advice but neither offer the same advice...exactly so I am just sorting it out at the moment.

 

Right now I have an invasion of what seems to be yellow nutsedge and I cannot pull them out fast enough.  I need an herbicide for that but I am now told it works best on the young ones which means the larger ones get pulled I guess.  I  tried Trimec 2,4-d the other day so I need to wait 4-5 days to see if there is any change.  Pulling them is boring but that is what nephews are for!

 

Thanks again.  I appreciate the comment.  I caused me to ask more questions.

 

Marc

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by MarcIssan

[MarcIssan]

On 5/4/2020 at 9:17 AM, Halfaboy said:

Did they come all the way down from bangkok to lay 300 m2 grass rolls in Udon ?

 

Was the new grass rolled up to make sure that there would be contact between the new grass and the old surface ?

 

Hope it all works out well....

Yes they came to Udon but they have a 2-month long project at a local school to redo their football pitch so I was just the icing on the cake.  The sod came folded lengthwise into 3 folds.  As you can see it was a rich green and freshly cut.  I ended up with 50 square meters too much so I planted it in the back just to keep it alive in case I need to fill in some dead spots later.

[MarcIssan]

Just now, MarcIssan said:

Yes they came to Udon but they have a 2-month long project at a local school to redo their football pitch so I was just the icing on the cake.  The sod came folded lengthwise into 3 folds.  As you can see it was a rich green and freshly cut.  I ended up with 50 square meters too much so I planted it in the back just to keep it alive in case I need to fill in some dead spots later.

Oh also, I forgot to mention they rolled it as the last step then I dumped water on it for 30 minutes.  It rooted in about a week so I cut the watering considerably.

[MarcIssan]

22 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

I am not sure if Zoysia will tolerate those herbicides. Your suggested fertilizers of 16-20-0 and 15-15-0 contains no K. You need K in these poor soils. Mowing twice a week for a new lawn is over doing it. The tropical Zoysia lawns are nothing like the ryegrass, fine fescue or fine bentgrass lawns in cool temperate countries. 

Can I pick your brain a little?  

 

I am attaching some recent photos of the grassy weeds I am battling in the hopes you can properly ID the weed species or more importantly suggest an herbicide that can eradicate them. 

 

We have a local shop where I got Trimec  2,4-d but they don't know anything about MSMA or trifloxysulfuron which was suggested by Micah.  He admitted not knowing weed types that well but thinks these look like yellow nutsedge and if so said I may have to pull the mature ones out and rely on an herbicide to control new growth.  It might also be goosegrass...honestly I just don't know.  Gosh I hope don't have to hand pull the thousands of weed growths out...I need a spray.  Back home I used a broadleaf spray and it took care of everything but crabgrass and thankfully I had little of that.

 

I read where 2,4-d kills sedges thus I applied Trimec and so far 2 days later there is no yellowing of anything.  I also sprayed the flower areas surrounding the Zoysia with Glyphosate and the grassy weeds are yellowing a bit as of today but that is a kill-all herbicide which I have used before but not suitable for lawns.

 

So what herbicides are compatible with Zoysia and what types of plants do they kill?  Also, is there a pre-emergent granule I can apply to control new growth...or is that not necessary when using an herbicide?

 

Any help you can offer is appreciated.

[Michael Hare]

Hello Marcisaan,

 

What you have in your lawn is Nut grass.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_rotundus

https://weeds.brisbane.qld.gov.au/weeds/nutgrass

 

In some literature it is called nut sedge and they say nut sedge and nut grass are one and the same. They are not.

https://www.imageforweeds.com/all-blogs/weed-identification/identify-and-kill-nutsedge-or-nutgrass-in-lawns

 

There are selective herbicides which will control nut grass but these herbicides are unlikely to be available in Thailand.

 

This leaves you with the only alternative which is to hand dig the plants out.

 

1 Hand digging. This must be done carefully with a sharp narrow trough. If your nephews put the nut grass plants out, the fine rhizomes will break off and remain in the soil. On my own lawns, we use to have quite a bit of nut grass so my wife and I (I am 70 years old) just got down on our hands and knees and dug out sections at a time. Took a few days but we got the job done.

 

2 Shade. Nut grass grows more in full sunlight. We have planted a lot of mahogany trees in our grounds and now that they are over 10 metres in height they are shading the lawns. Nut grass does not like shade and as such, the population has declined greatly.

 

3 I have replaced the Zoysia and Queensland blue couch lawns with Malaysia grass as this grass grows well in the shade. I also cut high and infrequently. If you cut often and short, this encourages the nut grass to regrow.

 

4 Fertilizer. We applied a NPK mix which also contains S. And about two times per year we spread a lot of lime around. We try to maintain a healthy lawn.

 

Now one would think that we would have a beautiful lawn with all the advice I have given. Far from it. I have another problem and that is our dogs. We have three German Shepherds and one Labrador and they dig. The Labrador is the worse. Like a buffalo, in that he likes to dig and lie down in the cool soil especially after watering.

 

I hope the above advice is of some help.

 

Good luck,

Michael

[MarcIssan]

Well, the news is both good and bad.  The good news is that I finally know what the problem is and the bad news is that I have to hand dig the buggers out.  I have between 250 and 300 square meters of grass all in full sun!  But thanks for the final word on what the invasive grass is!  Many were guessing and telling me to try this and that.

 

I had a digging tool in the states that had a long shaft with a small fork at the end to loosen the soil around the root shaft but left all my garden tools when I moved here.  I'll locate a few like it, one for my wife and I plus 2 nephews.  I am 72 but still put in the hard work to build then maintain what is there.  If you have a photo and a source for the tool you found to work the best, send it along.

 

I put Malaysian grass in a shady area and it is doing well but it suddenly stops at the very edge that gets afternoon sun and that is where the Nutgrass starts.  I hand pull  the unwanted grasses there but the plot is only 3 meters by 14 meters so that is easily managed.

 

Regarding fertilizer, I'll look for some NPKS.  The stuff the grass company suggested is either all N or NP but no K or S.  Do you have a brand you like?  I have a local farm supply and can look around there.

 

So I guess that's it for now unless you find a photo of the tool you like or have any further comments. 

 

Thanks again.

[Denim]

On 5/28/2020 at 9:09 PM, MarcIssan said:

It looked great but the next day the temps got to 104 and much of it turned brown and the heat lasted a full week.  I watered 4 times a day and still it got worse.  Finally the Zoysia started rooting and turning more green.

 

When I put our lawn down , apart from watering three times a day I also covered it up with thick netting  for protection during the hottest part of the day from 10 am to 4 am.  After about three weeks the turf had taken root and the netting was no longer needed.

 

as for weeds, I do ours by hand. If you want to get every single weed out at one go a very laborious business. I just do 5 minutes worth of weeding in the cool morning and another 5 in the evening. I just go for the biggest weeds visable. By doing this every day , after about a month hardly any weeds left. 

I wouldn't try any kind of weed killer since it might also kill off some of the grass.

 

 

[fredwiggy]

Is there such a thing as weed & feed here? I could find it anywhere in Texas, and a bag in the early Spring did the trick on everything but the grass, and lasted quite awhile. Here I tried a small packet diluted in a sprayer someone suggested and it did nothing. I pick weeds every day, and have for over 1 1/2 years. I started out with mostly dist and a lot of weeds and now have mostly grass but the weeds are interspersed among the five types of grass. I'm waiting on the rainy season to help with the watering, but watered twice daily all along to keep it growing. Never planted any grass, just went with what was there. I have two preferred types that are taking over slowly, but I wish I had some weed & feed to help. I know this isn't a grass favoring country, more involved with what you can eat, so all I've seen is roundup or the equivalent to kill everything so they can plant rice or cassava.

[MarcIssan]

2 hours ago, Denim said:

 

When I put our lawn down , apart from watering three times a day I also covered it up with thick netting  for protection during the hottest part of the day from 10 am to 4 am.  After about three weeks the turf had taken root and the netting was no longer needed.

 

as for weeds, I do ours by hand. If you want to get every single weed out at one go a very laborious business. I just do 5 minutes worth of weeding in the cool morning and another 5 in the evening. I just go for the biggest weeds visable. By doing this every day , after about a month hardly any weeds left. 

I wouldn't try any kind of weed killer since it might also kill off some of the grass.

 

 

I should have sprayed with Glyphosate first to kill everything before laying the grass.  The fill was fresh and I rototilled all the growth under several times then leveled the soil.  There were no visible growths of anything.  For sure most of the nutsedge was in my soil because the growth is pretty much limited to the sod edges and not so much in the center of the sod roll.  Pulling nutsedge is fruitless unless the nutlets at the end of the root are also pulled up.  Otherwise I will be pulling on the same grassy weed week after week.  I have pulled some as a test but never saw any nutlets and these will grow up soon for sure.

 

But I have found 3 herbicides that are safe with Zoysia and are effective on yellow and purple nutsedge.  The brands are Image Herbicide Consumer Concentrate, Ortho Nutsedge Killer, and SedgeHammer.  I'll use whichever one I can get the fastest as they

all are effective.

[CGW]

50 minutes ago, MarcIssan said:

The brands are Image Herbicide Consumer Concentrate, Ortho Nutsedge Killer, and SedgeHammer.  I'll use whichever one I can get the fastest as they

If you want too? order double and I'll split the cost with you? Never knew there was a specific weedkiller for this, I am in Udon Thani also.

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, MarcIssan said:

 

But I have found 3 herbicides that are safe with Zoysia and are effective on yellow and purple nutsedge.  The brands are Image Herbicide Consumer Concentrate, Ortho Nutsedge Killer, and SedgeHammer. 

Most herbicieds have been banned it they coantain any of these.

Quote

 

 “The Ministry of Industry published the list of banned toxic chemicals [sixth edition] in the Royal Gazette on May 19 to be effective from June 1,” she said. “The list includes five agri-chemicals based on paraquat and chlorpyrifos, such as chlorpyrifos, chlorpyrifos-methyl, paraquat, paraquat dichloride and paraquat dichloride [bis methyl sulfate].”

 

[MarcIssan]

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Most herbicieds have been banned it they coantain any of these.

 

Yes I know.  Some, many, or all are non-selective like Round Up but none of the ones I am seeking contain any of these ingredients.   Also the last I heard, Glyphosate was exempt due to pressure from America.  It seems if Thailand bans Glyphosate they also ban produce with Glyphosate on them.  That excludes about $29 billion worth of agriculture imported from America plus the Glyphosate produced there.  If anyone has an update that is different than this on Glyphosate I'd appreciate the info.

[ubonjoe]

What I posted goes into effect tomorrow. And is dated the 19th of this month.

Source

 

[MarcIssan]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

What I posted goes into effect tomorrow. And is dated the 19th of this month.

Source

 

Yup, Glyphosate is not on the list (but maybe it should be considering all the successful lawsuits in America regarding disease related to use) and none of the Nutsedge chemicals are on there either.  Thanks for posting.

[Michael Hare]

How is your lawn coming along Marcissan? Did you get rid of the nutgrass? We laid zoysia turfs around our new seed warehouse here in Ubon last November. Very poor land-fill soil. We have applied a lot of compost and lots of lime during the wet season. Now looking pretty good. No weeds at all.