Wonderful feeling: After 75 years, Berliner recalls end of WW2 in Europe

[losworld]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

War is not a nice business. 

 

The tendency of some modern politically correct "historians" to criticize operations is only possible because of those operations. Speculating on the realities is just that, speculating. 

 

Germany started the practice of deliberately terror bombing non combatant civilian targets as a tactic in WW1. They continued in in the Spanish Civil War when supporting the fascist Franco. They terror bombed Warsaw and Rotterdam, a deliberate tactic to smash the will of the people. The tried the same with the London Blitz and bombing British cities. In such circumstances, and in such times, it's not really surprising that similar tactics would be used against them given the opportunity, is it? 

 

 

What you are saying makes little sense. If you simply look at the design of the bombers Germany used in WW2 you will see they are small and designed to support troops movements.  It is the American and British who designed the huge bombers that resulted in countless deaths of innocent women and children.  War crimes like Dresden would not been possible without these specifically designed killing machines.

[puipuitom]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

War is not a nice business. 

 

The tendency of some modern politically correct "historians" to criticize operations is only possible because of those operations. Speculating on the realities is just that, speculating. 

 

Germany started the practice of deliberately terror bombing non combatant civilian targets as a tactic in WW1. They continued in in the Spanish Civil War when supporting the fascist Franco. They terror bombed Warsaw and Rotterdam, a deliberate tactic to smash the will of the people. The tried the same with the London Blitz and bombing British cities. In such circumstances, and in such times, it's not really surprising that similar tactics would be used against them given the opportunity, is it? 

The Germans tried to avoid any civilian casualties in the beginning of the air war with Great Britain. The first RAF raid on the interior of Germany took place on the night of 10 – 11 May on  Dortmund and Monchengladbach. see https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hitler-didn-t-start-indiscriminate-bombings-churchill-did- 

During the night of 25 August, British bombers raided targets in and around Greater Berlin for the first time, in response to the accidental bombing of Oxford Street and the West End by the Luftwaffe while it was bombing the London docks. On 4 September 1940 Hitler, frustrated by the RAF's superiority over the Luftwaffe and enraged by its bombing of German cities, decided to retaliate by bombing London and other cities in the UK.[43] On 7 September the Luftwaffe began massed attacks on London.

The Americans did not want to get involved in terror bombing. The commanding generals as Ira Eaker and Jimmy Doolittle Of the 8th air fleet protested again and again against the bombing of civilians. see https://www.jstor.org/stable/1890411?seq=1 

Especially the massacre of Dresden, with zero military reasons.

Bye-the-way: same war crime as shelling the cruiser Dresden stranded in the bay of Más a Tierra in Chilean waters, by order of the Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, "The German crew fled the cruiser in open boats to reach the safety of the island, which was neutral territory. The British cruisers kept up their fire on Dresden and the fleeing boats".

[Pilotman]

50 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

First of all: I would advise you to learn a little more about the history of Europe from 1900-August 1914

The support of the ”neutral” USA to Great Britain, inclusive smuggling of weapons and ammunition in passenger liners like the Lusitania, see https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

Then the "armistice for 20 years” instead of a peace treaty at Versailles 1919-20

Followed by what happened in the Interbellum, like: the French occupation and theft of all they could lay their hands on of the Rhineland, inclusive the coal- and iron-ore mines, the collapse (1923-24) of the German economy thanks to the hyperinflation caused by the support of the strikers in the Rhineland, the nearly overnight withdrawal of all US loans in the 30^’s, the total ignorance to all what happened in Germany after that, giving Hitler and the Nazi’s free hand to swindle everybody in Germany and around: Saarland, Austria, Sudetenland, till occupation of Czechia and making Slovakia a puppet state and step-stone to invade Poland.

Do not forget how much the Germans suffered from the Nazi regime.

Hitler was democratically elected by the German people, before he later took dictatorial powers. They may have suffered, they redoubtably did, but they brought it on themselves by colluding in two devastating World Wars.   

[rickudon]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

War is not a nice business. 

Very true. My father was ground crew in the RAF. The only person he had a direct hand in killing was a girl in Sicily .... They were being sniped at and a farmhouse was identified as the source. They stormed the farmhouse and found only a girl and a rifle in another room. Their sergeant dragged her outside and ordered the men to shoot her. That incident troubled him even decades later.

[Sujo]

3 hours ago, Pilotman said:

An opinion born of a massive amount of hindsight, from people who never had to live through a World War and wish to rewrite history without that experience.  What Bomber Command and the US 8th Air Force did in Europe and what the US Air Force did to Japan, including the dropping of the two Atomic Bombs, was a necessary evil and nothing to be ashamed about, both from those who participated and we who eventually befitted.  As it happened, my Father was not involved in the Dresden raid, but if he had been, he  would have done his duty if called upon to do so, just as he did over 30+ German targets. Of course war is cruel and inhumane, it always is, but that doesn't detract from the commitment and bravery of those who are called upon to fight it on behalf of society as a whole. It never ceases to amaze me how often and quickly people forget the commitment, dedication and sacrifice of all Armed Forces personnel , once the threat goes away.  That is truly something to be ashamed of. 

With all due respect there is nothing brave in dropping atom bombs, nor just bombing cities. I can understand doing their duty but blatant bombing is not heroic.

[pineapple01]

12 minutes ago, losworld said:

What you are saying makes little sense. If you simply look at the design of the bombers Germany used in WW2 you will see they are small and designed to support troops movements.  It is the American and British who designed the huge bombers that resulted in countless deaths of innocent women and children.  War crimes like Dresden would not been possible without these specifically designed killing machines.

Another Millennial Post. The Bastards obliterated parts of  Rotterdam,and many of my old family.Many descent Europeans wanted German to have America treat it like Japans war criminals..BANG.

[Pilotman]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

With all due respect there is nothing brave in dropping atom bombs, nor just bombing cities. I can understand doing their duty but blatant bombing is not heroic.

rubbish, they don't have a choice.  Military life is not an exercise in democracy, you do as you are ordered.  Such an opinion as yours comes from uninformed individuals who have never served and who seem to think that you take a vote on what to do and what not to do, depending on how you feel that day.    

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pilotman

[transam]

28 minutes ago, losworld said:

What you are saying makes little sense. If you simply look at the design of the bombers Germany used in WW2 you will see they are small and designed to support troops movements.  It is the American and British who designed the huge bombers that resulted in countless deaths of innocent women and children.  War crimes like Dresden would not been possible without these specifically designed killing machines.

Tell that to my late cockney mum...........????

You forgot about the V1 and V2............

Edited May 9, 2020 by transam

[abrahamzvi]

23 hours ago, hydraides said:

Its truly ironic. Celebrating 75 years after we won our 'freedom'.

 

Citizens of nearly every country in the Western world have today haveso easily given up their basic freedoms to their governments, without question, without protests. 

 

Seems like no one learnt anything. 

I disagree. Many are not prepared to give up their freedom and most certainly not be part of a butchery machinery the Nazis were. However, the fact that Europe as a whole has seen mostly peace in the last 75 years is due to the European Union, which the UK is regrettably leaving. Let us hope that we will always live in a peaceful Europe and will see the UK back as part of it.

[pineapple01]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Tell that to my late cockney mum...........????

You forgot about the V1 and V2............

All his type remember these day is Social Security and Nannies House.

[Pilotman]

39 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

The Germans tried to avoid any civilian casualties in the beginning of the air war with Great Britain. The first RAF raid on the interior of Germany took place on the night of 10 – 11 May on  Dortmund and Monchengladbach. see https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hitler-didn-t-start-indiscriminate-bombings-churchill-did- 

During the night of 25 August, British bombers raided targets in and around Greater Berlin for the first time, in response to the accidental bombing of Oxford Street and the West End by the Luftwaffe while it was bombing the London docks. On 4 September 1940 Hitler, frustrated by the RAF's superiority over the Luftwaffe and enraged by its bombing of German cities, decided to retaliate by bombing London and other cities in the UK.[43] On 7 September the Luftwaffe began massed attacks on London.

The Americans did not want to get involved in terror bombing. The commanding generals as Ira Eaker and Jimmy Doolittle Of the 8th air fleet protested again and again against the bombing of civilians. see https://www.jstor.org/stable/1890411?seq=1 

Especially the massacre of Dresden, with zero military reasons.

Bye-the-way: same war crime as shelling the cruiser Dresden stranded in the bay of Más a Tierra in Chilean waters, by order of the Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, "The German crew fled the cruiser in open boats to reach the safety of the island, which was neutral territory. The British cruisers kept up their fire on Dresden and the fleeing boats".

wrong on all counts.  German terror bombing of Warsaw  on WW2 day one, actually before the start of WW2, they were at it in Spain during the Civil War in that Country. The US knew exactly what they were doing, they missed their 'precision targets' more often than hitting them, but as the B17 was not equipped for night time operations, they were stuck with it. By 1944/45 they had given up any thought of precision targeting.  The aim of the 8th Air Force was to force fighters to engage and therefore rid the sky of the German Air Force in advance and post  of D Day.   The bombing of Japan by the US just highlighted  a policy that was paying lip service to precision. The US participated fully in the Dresden raid the day after Bomber Command targeted the place. Selective opinion is not history.   

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pilotman

[Pilotman]

15 hours ago, Tug said:

Pray to god that we never ever repeat it 

we will, or at least humanity will.  Humans are nasty, savage beasts, worse than any you will ever find in nature. There have been wars as long as there have been people, wars fought over power, resources, culture or religion.  It goes on today, as it has for millennia and it will never stop.  

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pilotman

[pineapple01]

Mr Pilotman do you not realise you are replying to Adrian Mole type oiks or those educated at the English School of Grange Hill

[abrahamzvi]

4 hours ago, joebrown said:

You forgot to mention that the German army fought like gentlemen on their rampage to Stalingrad. The Russian army only meted out justified retribution for the atrocities suffered by their countrymen.  For example the Germans had a system for saving valuable bullets by rounding up whole villages , then locking them in churches and barns before setting fire to them.

You are both right. Both sides behaved inhumanly. The barbaric behaviour of the Nazis in no way justifies the brutal and wild behaviour of the soviet soldiers in Germany after the end of the war. I sincerely hope that we all  have learned and the next generation will do so as well, that wars are inhuman, and they unfortunately turn human beings into wild animals.

 

In this respect one should remember the positive and constructive attitude of and compliment the American, British and French soldiers in post-war Germany. Further one should not forget the US Marshall Plan that allowed the economic and social reconstruction of Germany (or rather what used to be West Germany). All Germans should say a big thank you to these three western allies!

[Mac98]

17 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

Sometimes overlooked in the narrative of the final mths of WW2 is the savagery meted out by some Russian troops on the civilian population of East Prussia and Germany and why many of them tried to flee West .. Stalin's reaction to the murder , rape , thieving and mayhem being carried out by Russian troops was to brush it off with comments like " understand if the Russian soldier crosses thousands of km's of fire , fighting and death he can enjoy German women and a little trifle " and " we lecture our soldiers too much .. we should allow them the initiative " .. Some of the Allies seen these comments as condoning what was happening and said as much in private but as the days of bon homme between Allied and Russian troops after finally defeating the Nazi's began to evaporate the suspicions about each other were solidifying so statements made by the Allies about the brutality being shown to the German civilian population wouldn't go down well in Moscow polarising the standing of both further .. Eventually order began to be restored when the standing Russian forces were confined to camp and it was made a military offence to perpetrate crimes against the German population .. The ongoing consequences of some of the Soviets behaviour left lasting scars on German society such as " Russenbabies " resulting from rapes many of whom were abandoned straight after birth with some women preferring to seek backstreet terminations as the hospitals were controlled by the Russians , and many were infected with serious STD's .. And many woman fearing what would happen prevented it by taking their own lives .. For long after WW2 the Russians refused to acknowledge the extent of what their troops had done in seizing that side of Germany even after Stalin died .. though in the yrs after the Soviet Union collapsed and more records and information began to appear that they began to accept to a degree what happened but even so in the early 2000's a book " Berlin the Downfall " ( compelling but also uncomfortable to read ) which benefitted from information previously unavailable that detailed Russian troops behavior brought scathing criticism from them for trying to drag the reputation of the Red Army down and failing to consider the price the Russians paid in seizing Berlin .. 

Most of the Red Army p.o.w.s and many of it's conquering troops, having been exposed to the comparative riches of Central Europe, were sent on to labor camps by Stalin and never returned home.

[puipuitom]

16 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

Sometimes overlooked in the narrative of the final mths of WW2 is the savagery meted out by some Russian troops on the civilian population of East Prussia and Germany and why many of them tried to flee West .. Stalin's reaction to the murder , rape , thieving and mayhem being carried out by Russian troops was to brush it off with comments like " understand if the Russian soldier crosses thousands of km's of fire , fighting and death he can enjoy German women and a little trifle " and " we lecture our soldiers too much .. we should allow them the initiative " .. Some of the Allies seen these comments as condoning what was happening and said as much in private but as the days of bon homme between Allied and Russian troops after finally defeating the Nazi's began to evaporate the suspicions about each other were solidifying so statements made by the Allies about the brutality being shown to the German civilian population wouldn't go down well in Moscow polarising the standing of both further .. Eventually order began to be restored when the standing Russian forces were confined to camp and it was made a military offence to perpetrate crimes against the German population .. The ongoing consequences of some of the Soviets behaviour left lasting scars on German society such as " Russenbabies " resulting from rapes many of whom were abandoned straight after birth with some women preferring to seek backstreet terminations as the hospitals were controlled by the Russians , and many were infected with serious STD's .. And many woman fearing what would happen prevented it by taking their own lives .. For long after WW2 the Russians refused to acknowledge the extent of what their troops had done in seizing that side of Germany even after Stalin died .. though in the yrs after the Soviet Union collapsed and more records and information began to appear that they began to accept to a degree what happened but even so in the early 2000's a book " Berlin the Downfall " ( compelling but also uncomfortable to read ) which benefitted from information previously unavailable that detailed Russian troops behavior brought scathing criticism from them for trying to drag the reputation of the Red Army down and failing to consider the price the Russians paid in seizing Berlin .. 

Rape and plunder not only by the Russians https://theconversation.com/as-we-remember-ve-day-remember-too-the-german-women-who-were-raped-96196 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/26098365?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents Allies looting

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11  They raped every German female from eight to 80'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II  Allied war crimes during World War II

But also: looting by allied ( British, Canadian, American) forces in Netherlands. Translate with deepl.com  https://nos.nl/75jaarbevrijding/bericht/2324202-aanhoudende-plunderingen-door-geallieerden-bron-van-ergernis.html

[puipuitom]

44 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Hitler was democratically elected by the German people, before he later took dictatorial powers. They may have suffered, they redoubtably did, but they brought it on themselves by colluding in two devastating World Wars.   

Again British coloured history see "nazi party 1932 elections" NSDAP reached 33 % and declining  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election 

Thanks to a coalition, Hitler was appointed to Reichskanzler. With Hermann Goering as speaker of the House, many opponents were put aside till the coup d’etat end of Jan 1033, with many opposition persons killed, forced in exile or locked into the concentration camps. The Germans NEVER elected the Nazi’s nor Hitler to (absolute) power. The rest... was done by SA, SD, SS and Gestapo ( Secret State Police). 

 

[puipuitom]

5 hours ago, joebrown said:

You forgot to mention that the German army fought like gentlemen on their rampage to Stalingrad. The Russian army only meted out justified retribution for the atrocities suffered by their countrymen.  For example the Germans had a system for saving valuable bullets by rounding up whole villages , then locking them in churches and barns before setting fire to them.

THE difference between your opposer and YOU.

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

And you think this remark is worth to publish? Pathetic! 

Maybe you didn't understand the quote.

[Justgrazing]

1 hour ago, Mac98 said:

Most of the Red Army p.o.w.s and many of it's conquering troops, having been exposed to the comparative riches of Central Europe, were sent on to labor camps by Stalin and never returned home.

That they were .. Even Georgi Zhukov mastermind of the Russian defence and Operation Bagration that turfed the Germans off Russian soil felt Stalins wrath within a year of the end of WW2 .. Uncle Joe considered that Zhukov had become too popular and was therefore a threat so he was accused of political unreliability and other perceived crimes against the party , demoted and given a fairly meaningless posting in the Urals as a district commander .. A huge insult considering his previous rank

He was lucky , if it was not for his standing as a Hero of the Soviet Union he may have found himself in a gulag or worse .. 

[Mac98]

I can remember looking up at all those uniforms at church during and just after the war. My much  older brother served from 1945. I went to the library at age 12 and read a six-volume history of the U.S. Navy in the Pacific War.

   This was followed up as a journalist with a daily, six-year historical note in our paper from September 1989 to September 1995 on what took place 50 years ago today in WWII. I was given words of appreciation in letters and some visits, including a B-24 pilot who flew in the most fearsome of raids, that being on the Polesti oil fields.

   During those years I met General of the Army (5 stars) Omar Bradley (Patton's boss); Marine Air Col. Gregory 'Pappy' Boyington, commander of the 'Black Sheep Squadron', who also flew with the Flying Tigers in China; and discussed grand strategy with Luftwaffe Gen. Adolph Galand, who led the first air combat mission of ME-262 fighter jets. At the behest of Marine Gen. (ret.) Victor Krulak, who was associated with the news service I worked for, I was sent to the Aleutian Islands to do an anniversary story on the war for those bleak, but important, islands. A reunion of Aleutian veterans sent a letter and wartime pictures as thanks.

   More recently, I'm a founding member of the American Air Museum at Duxford Air Base in England. I still have the invitation to attend the opening ceremony with the queen participating. I had my brother's name listed on the plaque (a choice they gave us) as it was he who served for 30 years.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Mac98
Add clarification.

[Yom]

On 5/8/2020 at 6:20 PM, snoop1130 said:

The bloody Battle of Berlin, in which Red Army tanks, artillery and infantry fought forward street by street in April and May 1945, reduced the Nazi capital to rubble.

Another battle, another date and place. It' s like today?

Nothing learnt?
'Universal Soldier' comes to mind, written by Buffy Ste. Marie long ago.

Sung by herself and Donovan.

War is only cruel and usually not fair, even when there are rules of the game.

 

For me the most impressing words concerning end of WW II and the future
came from R. v. Weizsaecker in his speech of May 8  1985.

Concerning modern times may I mention Queen Elizabeth. 

My highest appreciation, Madam. - Thank You very much.

 

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1258692207332261888?s=09

and

Federal President Richard von Weizsäcker during the Ceremony Commemorating the 40th Anniversary of the End of War in Europe and of National-Socialist Tyranny on 8 May 1985

[pls search  'weizsaecker, 8. Mai 1945'  -  English-French-Russian]

[Yom]

26 minutes ago, Yom said:

'Universal Soldier' comes to mind, written by Buffy Ste. Marie long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHHQTuec0TM

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A50lVLtSQik

 

[puipuitom]

3 hours ago, Pilotman said:

wrong on all counts.  German terror bombing of Warsaw  on WW2 day one, actually before the start of WW2, they were at it in Spain during the Civil War in that Country. The US knew exactly what they were doing, they missed their 'precision targets' more often than hitting them, but as the B17 was not equipped for night time operations, they were stuck with it. By 1944/45 they had given up any thought of precision targeting.  The aim of the 8th Air Force was to force fighters to engage and therefore rid the sky of the German Air Force in advance and post  of D Day.   The bombing of Japan by the US just highlighted  a policy that was paying lip service to precision. The US participated fully in the Dresden raid the day after Bomber Command targeted the place. Selective opinion is not history.   

"Churchill and Air Marshall Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris had long pressed for making eastern German cities high-priority targets, and now USAAF General Carl “Tooey” Spaatz waswilling to oblige and ordered the Eighth to strike Berlin on February 3rd. But this time the target was not the railroad marshalling yards, but the city center, the heart of the Reich and an area of high civilian population.

8th Air Force Commander General Jimmie Doolittle protested. American officials had long been sensitive about bombing civilian targets. In a long-running debate among AAF commanders Doolittle remained opposed to terror bombing on both military and moral grounds. He felt that bombing a population into submission had little chance of success and that it violated “the basic American principle of precision bombing of targets of strictly military significance for which our tactics were designed and our crews trained and indoctrinated.” [Donald Miller: Masters Of the Air, p. 419]"

http://carryingfire.blogspot.com/2015/02/dresden-february-13-1945.html 

The firestorms in Japan were planned and orchestred by gen. Curtis LeMay, later an advocate to use nuclear bombs in Korea and Vietnam.

Edited May 9, 2020 by puipuitom

[Pilotman]

21 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

"Churchill and Air Marshall Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris had long pressed for making eastern German cities high-priority targets, and now USAAF General Carl “Tooey” Spaatz waswilling to oblige and ordered the Eighth to strike Berlin on February 3rd. But this time the target was not the railroad marshalling yards, but the city center, the heart of the Reich and an area of high civilian population.

8th Air Force Commander General Jimmie Doolittle protested. American officials had long been sensitive about bombing civilian targets. In a long-running debate among AAF commanders Doolittle remained opposed to terror bombing on both military and moral grounds. He felt that bombing a population into submission had little chance of success and that it violated “the basic American principle of precision bombing of targets of strictly military significance for which our tactics were designed and our crews trained and indoctrinated.” [Donald Miller: Masters Of the Air, p. 419]"

http://carryingfire.blogspot.com/2015/02/dresden-february-13-1945.html 

The firestorms in Japan were planned and orchestred by gen. Curtis LeMay, later an advocate to use nuclear bombs in Korea and Vietnam.

odd then that Doolittle led the first terror raid on Tokyo from an aircraft carrier an did so with evident pleasure in the pursuance of his orders and in revenge for Pearl Harbour.  Not criticising at all, very brave of him, but he had no real issue with bombing civilians and as with all military men at that time, regardless of their own feelings on the matter,  they did what was ordered by the "Point Blank Directive". Read Max Hastings's 'Bomber Command' if you want to read a true assessment of the European bombing war. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pilotman

[pineapple01]

This is turning into a hippy draft dodgers dream.You dont need ENIGMA to see their hidden agenda.

[Yom]

14 hours ago, blazes said:

With grave bitterness, he proceeded to recount the end of the war in Munich, how the French soldiers came in with guns blazing and mowed down all Germans in sight, women and children included.

Sorry, blazes, and you believed this until now? 

Almost 60 years later I might tell you, Munich was liberated by American troops.

No Munich citizen had ever been shot by an American soldier. - At least as far as I know.

 

The Bahnhof-area, especially Goethestrasse had some music locations in the 60ies.

OK, bars, amusement etc. too. - What a nice bar owner...

Btw, sometimes I was able to visit a place like 'Palais de Dance' or 'Palais d'amour'

with friends to listen bands like 'The Swinging Bluejeans' etc. - Wonderful.

[early at night, at 9 or 10 pm, before the 'real' customers arrived]

 

Back to the main station. 

But I did know the word "französich" that she kept screaming at us. 
She thought we were French.....

'Franzoesisch' means in German a sexual practice. No idea what she wanted to say?

 

Now some photos.

 

 

Justizpalast-Stachus Central point in Munich

 

 

               ******************

[sawadee1947]

5 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Maybe you didn't understand the quote.

Definitely not in your way. 

[blazes]

58 minutes ago, Yom said:

Back to the main station. 

But I did know the word "französich" that she kept screaming at us. 
She thought we were French.....

'Franzoesisch' means in German a sexual practice. No idea what she wanted to say?

 

 

Don't know about Munich, Yom, but if you were less of a trifler you would know what the German word for "French" is.  But congratulations on your superior sexual knowledge of the world, if that's your scene.

 

The French 1st Army captured Stuttgart and moved on down through Bavaria towards Austria and the Italian border.

Maybe you will find this link useful if you want to brush up your grasp of the conditions in March/April 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Allied_invasion_of_Germany

[Logosone]

On 5/8/2020 at 6:26 PM, Pilotman said:

I am so proud of what my father did in WW2.  It's not fashionable nowadays to recall the work of Bomber Command during those terrible years but the aircrew sacrifice was more than that in the Somme offence in WW1 with around 50% aircrew killed, but they kept up pressure on the Nazi Regime when there was no other way.  He was a Lancaster Flight Engineer with 103 Squadron in 1943/44  and a true hero in my eyes.  I will choose to remember him today and all those like him.   

It's not fashionable nowadays because we now know that Bomber Command purposely targeted civilians. For anyone who has read first hand accounts of children running in vain to save their lives, whilst on fire and burning alive, something Bomber Command inflicted on tens of thousands of women and children and the elderly, the strategic bombing campaign was a disgrace for humanity.

 

The aircrews in the UK were sacrificed in vain because historians have now demonstrated that strategic bombing was a major failure. 

 

"It was only near the end of the war, and the bombing of Dresden which killed approximately 25,000 people in a few hours, that there was any kind of outcry against Allied strategy, which incidentally had failed in any way to stem Germany’s production of armaments (there was a three-fold increase between 1941 and 1944)."

 

The esteemed Canadian economist John Kenneth Galbraith described allied bombing as ‘one of the greatest, perhaps the greatest, miscalculation of the war'.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hitler-didn-t-start-indiscriminate-bombings-churchill-did-

 

Not only did strategic bombing fail in causing even a slight reduction in German arms production which tripled during the years of Bomber Command's campaign but they actually succeeded in increasing German support for the regime as they saw the barbarity of British bombing of women and children.

 

Another myth about world war is that it was Germany that started strategic bombing of women and children. It was not, it was Churchill, in desperation because he had almost no options.

 

"Up until Churchill’s appointment as prime minister both Germany and Britain had stuck to a pledge not to attack targets in each other’s cities where civilians were at risk. Overy dismisses the long-held belief ‘firmly rooted in the British public mind’ that Hitler initiated the trend for indiscriminate bombings. Instead, he says, the decision to take the gloves off was Churchill’s, ‘because of the crisis in the Battle of France, not because of German air raids [over Britain].’

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/hitler-didn-t-start-indiscriminate-bombings-churchill-did-

 

Strategic bombing was a major failure.

 

It was also a disgusting war crime based, explicitly on the killing of civilians.

 

A major stain on Britain's reputation.