U.S. officials to meet this week on Israel annexation plan

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Seems to me you are the fringe fantasist that believes a viable two state solution is still possible. Israeli annexation will finally prove that Israel has never truly been interested in a viable two state solution...Zionists have always wanted the lot...the land but not the indigenous Palestinian people. Annexation will be the final nail in the coffin ...good! 

 

If as much energy had been spent on constructing ways to engineer a gradual, peaceful, realistic transfer of shared power in a secular democratic Israel as it has to apartheid checkpoints, roads, tunnels, bridges, separate communities, schools, hospitals in an apartheid Israel amongst peoples that will be there for eternity, we'd have had peace years ago.
 

 

Your original claim was that there were no such viable solutions discussed. Deflections notwithstanding,

it's still a false statement. As to "fringe" - support for the one-state, and analysis of it's prospects in line with your posts are it. Most people (Israelis and Palestinians) are not interested.

 

You can keep on framing the current annexation drive as something representing some general Israeli consensus. In reality, it isn't. Same goes for Zionist positions on such issues. The supposed single minded ideology you allege does not exist.

 

As usual, not a word out of you on the Palestinian side - apparently they were always and still are into a peaceful solution, all pro-democratic, all secular. Not a word on decades of rejectionism, violence or even the ongoing and current political map there.

 

Again, little of what you post is relevant to prevailing conditions, political views and sentiments among either people. It's nowhere near as simplistic as your try to make it.

[dexterm]

32 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There is no bigger picture, other than in your fantasies. In the real world, each and every time that the Palestinians chose the path of rejectionism and violence, their situations worsened. A one-state might be your fantasy, it's not what the Palestinians aspire or aspired for. Other than in your post, there is not such strong pro-democracy tradition and sentiment among Palestinians. Toss in all them vehement terms, still doesn't change reality.

Can't you see what's happening? Palestinians in Bantustans completely surrounded by Israel but with no voting rights. Where's the Zionist dream of a Jewish and democratic state now? Time to get real. Time is on the side of the Palestinians. All they need do is stay put, and refuse to allow European colonialists to ethnically cleanse them. Eventually they'll get equal rights...as they should!

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by dexterm

[Chelseafan]

27 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Arab states are basically fed up with the Palestinians, with the situation going nowhere, and with returns on strong support for the Palestinians being low. Some of them got bigger fish to fry, others recall Palestinians being somewhat dodgy with allegiances. What with the Palestinians being split into 2-3 factions, and with none of these offering much headway toward dealing with the relevant issues, support is less forthcoming (short of words).

 

It was a rhetorical quesition but you are right. ????

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Chelseafan

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Whatever Palestinians aspire to for, less and less of them want a 2 state solution.

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinian-attitudes-about-peace-with-israel

 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/fikraforum/view/palestinian-majority-rejects-two-state-solution-but-backs-tactical-compromi

 

Yeah. You'll notice that the option of choice is yet another uncomfortable truth some on here try to deny. As for the two-state solution, while sure losing ground, it's still more popular than the one-state bit, plus more accommodating as far as the Palestinian desire for a country of their own. I think that it's more realistic to go down that path, and that if push comes to shove, and a more reasonable offer is made (and backed up) public sentiment will improve. That's not saying a whole lot, though, as neither Palestinian faction practices democracy on this level.

 

There's no solution which would satisfy all sides and related factions. With that caveat, the two-state solution still remains the more realistic middle ground.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Can't you see what's happening? Palestinians in Bantustans completely surrounded by Israel but with no voting rights. Where's the Zionist dream of a Jewish and democratic state now? Time to get real. Time is on the side of the Palestinians. All they need do is stay put, and refuse to allow European colonialists to ethnically cleanse them. Eventually they'll get equal rights...as they should!

 

 

First of all, there's no annexation yet. It's not even clear what falls under the current label. For your own reasons you ignore the various OP's under which this is discussed and treat it as both a reality and a full blown version one, at that.

 

Just make up your mind if you are for the annexation or against it. While it's not surprising you would use either choice to bash Israel, it gets confusing when you switch your "argument" mid-post.

 

All they need to do is stay put? That's all? Sound easy. Of course, there's a whole lot more to that "staying put" bit, especially if the annexation goes through, but on the plus side, great material for online rants. As for "refuse to allow..." - taking armchair revolutions to the next level there. But again, if it fails, still good stuff for a bash, eh?

 

Did you miss the part about Palestinians not actually embracing your "vision"?

 

[dexterm]

49 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

First of all, there's no annexation yet. It's not even clear what falls under the current label. For your own reasons you ignore the various OP's under which this is discussed and treat it as both a reality and a full blown version one, at that.

 

Just make up your mind if you are for the annexation or against it. While it's not surprising you would use either choice to bash Israel, it gets confusing when you switch your "argument" mid-post.

 

All they need to do is stay put? That's all? Sound easy. Of course, there's a whole lot more to that "staying put" bit, especially if the annexation goes through, but on the plus side, great material for online rants. As for "refuse to allow..." - taking armchair revolutions to the next level there. But again, if it fails, still good stuff for a bash, eh?

 

Did you miss the part about Palestinians not actually embracing your "vision"?

 

No fence sitting here buddy! There is no hope of a two state solution. Israel would never allow a viable Palestinian state on its border. Who's going to make it happen? That's all been a complete charade, a diplomatic fig leaf behind which the EU and others have been hiding behind for decades.

Annexation ..bring it on! Israel's true aims for the last 100 years will now be completely transparent.

I just don't think they have quite figured out yet what they are going to do with the 3 million resident indigenous Palestinians they are also annexing. Have you?

Edited June 24, 2020 by dexterm

[metisdead]

Some posts with links to unapproved YouTube sources and the replies have been removed.

 

Off topic posts have been removed. 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, dexterm said:

No fence sitting here buddy! There is no hope of a two state solution. Israel would never allow a viable Palestinian state on its border. Who's going to make it happen? That's all been a complete charade, a diplomatic fig leaf behind which the EU and others have been hiding behind for decades.

Annexation ..bring it on! Israel's true aims for the last 100 years will now be completely transparent.

I just don't think they have quite figured out yet what they are going to do with the 3 million resident indigenous Palestinians they are also annexing. Have you?

 

I'm not your buddy.

Thanks for making your support for the annexation clearer. If following the "rationale" on offer, it's a wonder you were so dead set against the occupation, if one considers it a necessary prelude for the former. Then again, not really expecting much consistency.

 

Israel is still 2-3 decades away from the 100 years mark, and presenting it a single minded entity while ignoring reality would be right up some posters' alley. There isn't even much public support or interest in the current annexation drive, but don't let facts stand in the way of rants.

 

I've posted often that annexation, with whatever it entails, implies bad things for Israel. More so for the long term. You wish to pretend it wasn't discussed, that's alright, used to it by now. I've also posted on how the Israeli right wing does not have much bright ideas how to cope with the consequences of such actions.

 

A two-state solution would be hard to implement. There's no denying that and there never was. However, it is not more difficult or outlandish than the one-state stuff you're trying to sell. In fact, it contains more elements which (partially) resonate with either side's aspirations and narrative. That, and not being totally out of touch with how things are in the Middle East, or at a disconnect with core values of both societies.

 

You're still dodging the points about your fantasies not being the Palestinians', the logic (or even morality) of disregarding sides' wishes in favor of an imported "vision", and the lack of any support to the notion of such a solution to make it in the Middle East.

 

[johnpetersen]

Half of Israelis support West Bank annexation, poll finds

Half of Israelis support annexing parts of the occupied West Bank, although they are divided over whether to take the step without U.S. support, an opinion poll showed on Wednesday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-poll/half-of-israelis-support-west-bank-annexation-poll-finds-idUSKBN23A1X5

 

The lede is quite odd since it is the Trump administration's plan. Presumably Trump would support it especially given all that he's adamantly said on the subject. Still, with Trump, you never know. Israelis may have cottoned on to this?

[dexterm]

57 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'm not your buddy.

Thanks for making your support for the annexation clearer. If following the "rationale" on offer, it's a wonder you were so dead set against the occupation, if one considers it a necessary prelude for the former. Then again, not really expecting much consistency.

 

Israel is still 2-3 decades away from the 100 years mark, and presenting it a single minded entity while ignoring reality would be right up some posters' alley. There isn't even much public support or interest in the current annexation drive, but don't let facts stand in the way of rants.

 

I've posted often that annexation, with whatever it entails, implies bad things for Israel. More so for the long term. You wish to pretend it wasn't discussed, that's alright, used to it by now. I've also posted on how the Israeli right wing does not have much bright ideas how to cope with the consequences of such actions.

 

A two-state solution would be hard to implement. There's no denying that and there never was. However, it is not more difficult or outlandish than the one-state stuff you're trying to sell. In fact, it contains more elements which (partially) resonate with either side's aspirations and narrative. That, and not being totally out of touch with how things are in the Middle East, or at a disconnect with core values of both societies.

 

You're still dodging the points about your fantasies not being the Palestinians', the logic (or even morality) of disregarding sides' wishes in favor of an imported "vision", and the lack of any support to the notion of such a solution to make it in the Middle East.

 

Annexation "implies bad things for Israel" and "A two-state solution would be hard to implement."
So what's it to be?

 

Continue fence sitting if you like. The reality is that it is already a single state with de facto apartheid. Israel is simply formalizing it ...good. Two states are not going to happen. Netanyahu has said so, and there is no-one to oppose him.

 

OP..
"U.S. officials will gather this week to discuss whether to give Israel a green light for its plan to annex Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank, as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's target date of July 1 approaches.
A senior administration official said on Monday that the U.S. ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, will be in Washington to meet officials including Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, senior White House adviser Jared Kushner and Middle East envoy Avi Berkowitz. President Donald Trump could also join in."

 

Which one of the above is going to pull out the red card?

 

Time to move on to the next phase: ending apartheid with one man one vote in a secular democratic state.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Half of Israelis support West Bank annexation, poll finds

Half of Israelis support annexing parts of the occupied West Bank, although they are divided over whether to take the step without U.S. support, an opinion poll showed on Wednesday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-poll/half-of-israelis-support-west-bank-annexation-poll-finds-idUSKBN23A1X5

 

The lede is quite odd since it is the Trump administration's plan. Presumably Trump would support it especially given all that he's adamantly said on the subject. Still, with Trump, you never know. Israelis may have cottoned on to this?

 

There's actually little public debate or discussion on the annexation in Israel. It takes the backseat to other issues (Corona, economy, domestic politics). I don't think that there's any poll showing annexation to be a priority as far as most Israelis go. Then again, what discourse is available doesn't include a much by way of facts - as to what falls under the heading of annexation (mostly because Netanyahu keeps it to himself), or what the consequences might be.

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Annexation "implies bad things for Israel" and "A two-state solution would be hard to implement."
So what's it to be?

 

Continue fence sitting if you like. The reality is that it is already a single state with de facto apartheid. Israel is simply formalizing it ...good. Two states are not going to happen. Netanyahu has said so, and there is no-one to oppose him.

 

OP..
"U.S. officials will gather this week to discuss whether to give Israel a green light for its plan to annex Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank, as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's target date of July 1 approaches.
A senior administration official said on Monday that the U.S. ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, will be in Washington to meet officials including Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, senior White House adviser Jared Kushner and Middle East envoy Avi Berkowitz. President Donald Trump could also join in."

 

Which one of the above is going to pull out the red card?

 

Time to move on to the next phase: ending apartheid with one man one vote in a secular democratic state.

 

There is no contradiction between saying that annexation is a bad move and that a two-state solution is hard. Both are true. Also, taking the two-state comment out of context is cute - my original post pitted it against the one-state solution. The two-state solution is not harder to implement than a one-state.

 

There were various reports, some quoted in the previews topic, some appearing in links on Bolton's book, detailing that Trump's administration is far from unified on the score of annexation's manner and scope. Similarly, there were reports that the USA conditions support for such moves on them being coordinated with Israel's neighbors, the Palestinians and requiring wide political backup in Israel. That you ignore all information that's not in line with your agenda and rhetoric is trademark.

 

Hence, no serious comments on the issue of Palestinian positions, on the moral validity of ignoring sides' views, or on the chances of such fantasies making it in the Middle East and given both parties issues.

[dexterm]

36 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There is no contradiction between saying that annexation is a bad move and that a two-state solution is hard. Both are true. Also, taking the two-state comment out of context is cute - my original post pitted it against the one-state solution. The two-state solution is not harder to implement than a one-state.

 

There were various reports, some quoted in the previews topic, some appearing in links on Bolton's book, detailing that Trump's administration is far from unified on the score of annexation's manner and scope. Similarly, there were reports that the USA conditions support for such moves on them being coordinated with Israel's neighbors, the Palestinians and requiring wide political backup in Israel. That you ignore all information that's not in line with your agenda and rhetoric is trademark.

 

Hence, no serious comments on the issue of Palestinian positions, on the moral validity of ignoring sides' views, or on the chances of such fantasies making it in the Middle East and given both parties issues.

Cling to your fantasy of a two state solution if you like. Looks like Trump, Pompeio, Kushner, Friedman and Netanyahu can see things more clearly than you.

According to Kellyanne Conway the annexation is no big deal.
Trump aide: Concerns over occupied West Bank annexation overblown
"US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo defended Israel's plan on Wednesday, saying on "extending sovereignty to other places are decisions for the Israelis to make".
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/trump-aide-concerns-west-bank-annexation-overblown-200624162439275.html

 

Annexation is the game changer. The two state solution is dead. Good. Long live the one state solution.

Then maybe you will finally stop side stepping the question: What is Israel going to do with the 3 million resident indigenous Palestinians they are also annexing?

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Cling to your fantasy of a two state solution if you like. Looks like Trump, Pompeio, Kushner, Friedman and Netanyahu can see things more clearly than you.

According to Kellyanne Conway the annexation is no big deal.
Trump aide: Concerns over occupied West Bank annexation overblown
"US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo defended Israel's plan on Wednesday, saying on "extending sovereignty to other places are decisions for the Israelis to make".
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/trump-aide-concerns-west-bank-annexation-overblown-200624162439275.html

 

Annexation is the game changer. The two state solution is dead. Good. Long live the one state solution.

Then maybe you will finally stop side stepping the question: What is Israel going to do with the 3 million resident indigenous Palestinians they are also annexing?

 

What fantasy would that be? Where have I said anything about it being easy, or even currently possible? I'm not the one peddling such dreams. If you think Trump, Kushner, Pompeo and Netanyahu's views are the ones to follow, by all means. 

 

Kinda lost you after "according to Kellyanne Conway...". Seriously, does Conway set policy? She's nothing more than a mouthpiece, and one which sometimes needs to backtrack in order to keep up with her boss.

 

So far, there's no annexation, and no details of what it includes. That you pretend to know more about it doesn't give your comments much substance.

 

That you have little issues with the Palestinians going through even worse times than now, just so that a "solution" you support (but they don't) might materialize, clearly shows where your real focus is  on.

 

I haven't dodged anything, why lie? I've addressed various issues related to annexation and consequences on multiple topics and numerous posts. Stop trolling. You, on the other hand, routinely fail to address the lot of the Palestinians given annexation. Summing it as waiting for some distant future in which all will be resolved doesn't cut it. Do you have even a minimal clue as to what annexation implies, for example, with regard to issues of land ownership? Short version, it's not more of the same, but much worse.

 

None of your nonsense fantasies acknowledges that the Palestinians do not embrace your position, none of them accounts for Palestinian elements (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) with radically different views to your own.

[dexterm]

The EU, Israel's largest trading partner will wring their hands and say they are seriously concerned about annexation, but will do nothing.

 

The UN will condemn Israel's action, but Trump will veto any sanctions.

 

There is nothing the Palestinians can do other than protest. Israel has all the guns and power, with Trump cheerleading them on.

 

Netanyahu may next week introduce a creeping annexation in an attempt to see how far Israel can push its immunity that others are sanctioned for when they commit war crimes. Start with illegal settlements close to Jerusalem then follow up with the Jordan Valley later completely enveloping Palestinians in their Bantustans.

 

With annexation the goalposts have shifted. The PA will be redundant. They were supposed to deliver a Palestinian state within 5 years of Oslo last century. Big fail. Palestinians will be a stateless majority ruled over by a racist minority. Classic apartheid.

 

The racist supremacist Zionists will continue to dig an apartheid hole for themselves, and more Palestinian voices will emerge demanding equal rights in a single state. Good. A single state is inevitable for the two peoples whose lives, religions and cultures are so entwined. I thought it was going to take decades. Donald has speeded up the process.

Edited June 25, 2020 by dexterm

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, dexterm said:

The EU, Israel's largest trading partner will wring their hands and say they are seriously concerned about annexation, but will do nothing.

 

The UN will condemn Israel's action, but Trump will veto any sanctions.

 

There is nothing the Palestinians can do other than protest. Israel has all the guns and power, with Trump cheerleading them on.

 

Netanyahu may next week introduce a creeping annexation in an attempt to see how far Israel can push its immunity that others are sanctioned for when they commit war crimes. Start with illegal settlements close to Jerusalem then follow up with the Jordan Valley later completely enveloping Palestinians in their Bantustans.

 

With annexation the goalposts have shifted. The PA will be redundant. They were supposed to deliver a Palestinian state within 5 years of Oslo last century. Big fail. Palestinians will be a stateless majority ruled over by a racist minority. Classic apartheid.

 

The racist supremacist Zionists will continue to dig an apartheid hole for themselves, and more Palestinian voices will emerge demanding equal rights in a single state. Good.

 

The Palestinians should have made better choices, somehow none of their past actions and decisions seems to bear any shred of accountability or responsibility in your copy-pasted tirades. All them issues pertaining to the Palestinians themselves and which make potential backers refrain from full support are routinely missing from your posts.

 

No mention of Palestinian rejectionism, blatant corruption, failure to uphold democratic standards, human rights issues, reliance on violence and terrorism, or even the ongoing schism between Palestinian factions.

 

Even disregarding past choices and mistakes, the Palestinian response to Trump's plan and the possible annexation move was lackluster, and did not manage to bypass any of the existing domestic issues that hamper a more effective approach. There weren't much peaceful mass protests, no serious attempts to bridge the chasm between the two main political factions, no clear and credible statements regarding possible courses of action. It's not quite the response one would have expected from people supposedly invested in self-determination.

 

The goalposts are being shifted all the time. That's how it is with long standing conflicts. Since this is by no means anything new, the question remains how such shifts are being addressed and dealt with. Can't say that the Palestinians exhibit much capability on this score. Getting entrenched in some unattainable position is no way to deal with more dynamic and pragmatic rivals. All the more so when upheld by the weaker party.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The Palestinians should have made better choices, somehow none of their past actions and decisions seems to bear any shred of accountability or responsibility in your copy-pasted tirades. All them issues pertaining to the Palestinians themselves and which make potential backers refrain from full support are routinely missing from your posts.

 

No mention of Palestinian rejectionism, blatant corruption, failure to uphold democratic standards, human rights issues, reliance on violence and terrorism, or even the ongoing schism between Palestinian factions.

 

Even disregarding past choices and mistakes, the Palestinian response to Trump's plan and the possible annexation move was lackluster, and did not manage to bypass any of the existing domestic issues that hamper a more effective approach. There weren't much peaceful mass protests, no serious attempts to bridge the chasm between the two main political factions, no clear and credible statements regarding possible courses of action. It's not quite the response one would have expected from people supposedly invested in self-determination.

 

The goalposts are being shifted all the time. That's how it is with long standing conflicts. Since this is by no means anything new, the question remains how such shifts are being addressed and dealt with. Can't say that the Palestinians exhibit much capability on this score. Getting entrenched in some unattainable position is no way to deal with more dynamic and pragmatic rivals. All the more so when upheld by the weaker party.

Don't blame the victim! Palestinians are the colonized, not the European colonizers.

Like the Zionist mugger who knocks you to the ground, steals your money, and continues kicking you because you resist. It's all on CCTV anyway. The world is watching this time.

 

The conflict is evolving into overt apartheid which makes the endgame closer. All Palestinians need do is stay put, and allow the Zionist invaders to score an own goal, exposing the big hoax that Israel is democratic and peace-loving...how can it be when, obsessed with racial supremacy, it continues to subjugate the majority indigenous Palestinian population who have no say in how they are governed.

 

Young American Jews are appalled at what is being done to democracy in their name.

Edited June 25, 2020 by dexterm

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Don't blame the victim! Palestinians are the colonized, not the European colonizers.

Like the Zionist mugger who knocks you to the ground, steals your money, and continues kicking you because you resist. It's all on CCTV anyway. The world is watching this time.

 

The conflict is evolving into overt apartheid which makes the endgame closer. All Palestinians need do is stay put, and allow the Zionist invaders to score an own goal, exposing the big hoax that Israel is democratic and peace-loving...how can it be when, obsessed with racial supremacy, it continues to subjugate the majority indigenous Palestinian population who have no say in how they are governed.

 

Young American Jews are appalled at what is being done to democracy in their name.

 

Other than in your mind, the Palestinians are not fully exempt from all criticism. Not even the Palestinians themselves take things to this level of denial. You can deflect all you like, but it wouldn't make the choices and decisions made by Palestinians any better.

 

Same goes for deflecting the point made about change. Issuing out the same slogans, the same negative phrases and them vehement condemnations did not and will not contribute an iota to the Palestinians dealing with things.

 

You can go on and on about Palestinian waiting it out. That this is more focused on your hatred of Israel, rather than spelling anything constructive with regard to the Palestinians, is sad.

 

Introduce whatever is on your talking point list, you're still dodging any actual discussion pertaining to the Palestinians themselves. Also, may I point out that hyper-vilifying one side, and refusing do discuss the other, do not make the kumbaya "solution" notions on offer very believable. 

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Other than in your mind, the Palestinians are not fully exempt from all criticism. Not even the Palestinians themselves take things to this level of denial. You can deflect all you like, but it wouldn't make the choices and decisions made by Palestinians any better.

 

Same goes for deflecting the point made about change. Issuing out the same slogans, the same negative phrases and them vehement condemnations did not and will not contribute an iota to the Palestinians dealing with things.

 

You can go on and on about Palestinian waiting it out. That this is more focused on your hatred of Israel, rather than spelling anything constructive with regard to the Palestinians, is sad.

 

Introduce whatever is on your talking point list, you're still dodging any actual discussion pertaining to the Palestinians themselves. Also, may I point out that hyper-vilifying one side, and refusing do discuss the other, do not make the kumbaya "solution" notions on offer very believable. 

Do try to stay on topic. 

The OP concerns Israel's annexation of Palestinian land with Trump's hypocritical complicity, not the other way around.

 

But deflect away if you wish rehashing chestnuts from your Zionist playbook to blame Palestinians.

The annexation will take place maybe as early as next week. We'll find out the extent of it then. Or maybe sooner...Trump is due to make a "big announcement" apparently.

And annexation will formalize apartheid.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, dexterm said:

Do try to stay on topic. 

The OP concerns Israel's annexation of Palestinian land with Trump's hypocritical complicity, not the other way around.

 

But deflect away if you wish rehashing chestnuts from your Zionist playbook to blame Palestinians.

The annexation will take place maybe as early as next week. We'll find out the extent of it then. Or maybe sooner...Trump is due to make a "big announcement" apparently.

And annexation will formalize apartheid.

 

Do try to stop with these inane deflections. I never claimed the topic was about anything other than it is. You, on the other hand, treat it as you treat any related topic - just another bash opportunity, with as little as possible by way of factual, rational discussion.

 

My position is that regardless of what Israelis done, did and will do, the Palestinians had and have choices to make. To date, most of these were bad ones. This position doesn't deny Israeli wrongdoing or condone it wholesale. Many of my posts are critical of Israel's moves, policies and leadership on this score. You are well aware of it, and still make lame excuses in order to avoid any discussion of issues less favorable to your agenda. Hardly a fair, or even polite way to engage.

 

Nice to see that you finally admit not actually knowing what falls under the title of annexation. And no, an annexation will not necessarily "formalize apartheid". For example, if it would encompass only settlements (illegal, granted) but not Palestinian villages and towns. I think that if it comes through, this is a more likely path, at least for starters.

[cliveshep]

Amazing how many anti-semites there are posting on here who have closed eyes, ears and minds.

 

Palestinians and Jews co-habited peacefully in the land for centuries until after WW2 when the Arabs demonstrated the same lack of compassion towards them as did the Allies who were intent on returning the holocaust survivors to the countries they came from. Those countries under Stalin's domination only wanted them back to put them in gulags and slave labour camps.

 

Small wonder then that for the survivors the cry "Next year in Jerusalem" took on a meaning of a hope denied by every country on earth - to their shame. So they came to the land of their fathers and tried to settle there and found the same hatred they knew from Europe. Arabs who had for centuries lived peacefully with Jews now turned against them following the example of the Allies who also wanted them returned to Europe - and Stalin. 

 

So the Arabs gave them no choice nor did the British under their criminal "Mandate" - it was simple - submit to yet more persecution - or fight to survive. So they fulfilled Biblical Prophecy - they fought - and in less than 3 years in 1948 declared the State of Israel, backed by America. Had the Arabs accepted them it would possibly still have been the State of Palestine to this day.

 

And God - if you accept that - has blessed them enormously. The desert "bloomed like a rose" (Isaiah 35:1) under their care, they not only feed themselves, they export vast quantities of fruit and vegetables. Most of you will have eaten Israeli apples! They export desalination technologies, they have an army and air-force that twice took on bigger neighbours and beat them, they send aid to other countries all round the world, they bring in sick Palestinians including injured fighters and treat them in well equipped hospitals, in spite of constant rocket and bomb attacks against their children and people's homes. Israelis suffer from from parachute incendiaries, sent by Palestinian youths indoctrinated from childhood to hate Jews, as taught in schools funded by the West.

 

Palestinians living and working in Israel - and there are many - enjoy peace and a quality of life denied their people the other side of the wall by the Palestinian authorities who persist in terrorism and suffer Israeli sanctions because of it. Were they to genuinely accept that their repeated attacks against Israel are alone responsible for ever harder sanctions and seek real peace they would not suffer periodic incursions by an Israeli military increasingly exasperated by bombs and rockets from them. They are too stupid to see that every Israeli incursion causes the "State" of Palestine to shrink more and more. 

 

I'm amazed that Israel leaves them alone as much as it does, it shows a forbearance they have long ago forfeited a right to expect. 

 

And before the nay-sayers get going - not everything Israel does is good and right, they too can be harsh in their treatment but then they can look back at the callous treatment handed out to them, to their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children as a constant reminder to stay strong, unswerving and alert.

 

The Arabs it is said, fight each other as much as the Jews. The story goes that when a bunch of Arabs got together to create a world-beating race-horse they disagreed and argued so much their compromise design was.............the camel. Certainly compare Israel to Arab lands - there is little improvement of the desert outside of Israel yet it can be done if you don't waste your energy fighting!

[Morch]

 

@cliveshep

 

Yay! The mandatory "historical" review is here.

Pray tell, even if one was to accept it wholesale, what is its direct relevance to the OP?

 

[dexterm]

@cliveshep

Racist delusional uninformed off topic hogwash.

 

Please quote any anti-Semitic words or sentences in this thread. .

[cliveshep]

The principle is clearly still valid Dexterm and Morch - if you don't like the message attack the messenger. My post is relevant to the OP's post which is relevant to the situation today, annexing former Palestinian lands taken from them after a military intervention to prevent or punish constant rocket, fire-bomb etc attacks on Israeli citizens. If this sort of truth offends do feel free to make a PLO or Hamas banner and go walk up and down outside the nearest US Embassy in solidarity of protest. And good luck with that!

[dexterm]

10 hours ago, cliveshep said:

The principle is clearly still valid Dexterm and Morch - if you don't like the message attack the messenger. My post is relevant to the OP's post which is relevant to the situation today, annexing former Palestinian lands taken from them after a military intervention to prevent or punish constant rocket, fire-bomb etc attacks on Israeli citizens. If this sort of truth offends do feel free to make a PLO or Hamas banner and go walk up and down outside the nearest US Embassy in solidarity of protest. And good luck with that!

I was attacking the message not the messenger. Apologies for my strong language - I just saw red at your misinformation.

 

Your post contained racist stereotypes, and yet hypocritically you accused TVF members of being anti-Semitic but when challenged did not produce a single word of evidence.

 

I could debunk every point in your post but that would be off topic. I suggest you google "youtube Nakba" and "settler violence" to acquaint yourself with both sides of the narrative.

 

We live in the 21st century, not in the age of Genghis Khan or 17th Century European colonization. In these more enlightened times a nation cannot acquire land by conquest...hence nowadays sanctions when a country attempts that, but strangely Israel seems to be able to do so with impunity.  Otherwise we'd have the law of the jungle, might is right, and everybody would be at it.

 

According to the Geneva Convention to which Israel and the USA are signatories, a nation is allowed to temporarily occupy land with military outposts for security reasons. Israel has been temporarily occupying Palestinians for over 50 years since 1967, to which they are entitled to resist. But it's worse than that..

 

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Article_49:_Deportations,_transfers,_evacuations

 

Israel has not only ethnically cleansed the indigenous Palestinians and encouraged the transfer of its own population to where they lived, they are now formalizing that by planning to change illegal occupation into annexation.

 

Hence the controversy in the OP. Annexation will turn a temporary situation of de facto apartheid (where there was hope of one day a two state solution) into a permanent situation where the minority religious group controls the lives of the majority indigenous population without them having a say in how they are governed.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, cliveshep said:

The principle is clearly still valid Dexterm and Morch - if you don't like the message attack the messenger. My post is relevant to the OP's post which is relevant to the situation today, annexing former Palestinian lands taken from them after a military intervention to prevent or punish constant rocket, fire-bomb etc attacks on Israeli citizens. If this sort of truth offends do feel free to make a PLO or Hamas banner and go walk up and down outside the nearest US Embassy in solidarity of protest. And good luck with that!

 

Don't think I actually "attacked" you, but rather your post. There is no prerogative such as your imagine which allows for lands to be annexed. To the winner, the spoils bit is old news. The supposed annexation revolves around the West Bank - no rocket fire out of there, and most of the other attacks directed either at (illegal) Israeli settlers or security forces. Nothing which constitutes a threat mandating an annexation.

 

[metisdead]

A troll post has been reported and removed as well as the replies. 

[RobFord]

On 6/24/2020 at 10:58 PM, dexterm said:

I personally think it will drift towards overt apartheid. No-one has offered a pathway to a viable alternative of a two state solution (approx 67 borders, shared Jerusalem, acknowledgement of Palestinian refugees' right of return) that has been on the table since 1993 Oslo Accords and even earlier...who's going to make it happen..no-one!
 The EU and possible future Biden US administrations (or Trump even more so), who are the only ones with real clout, will offer the usual platitudes of deep "concern' over Israel's illegal annexation. ... Good as far as I am concerned. It makes a one state solution more certain!

Palestinians will soon realize: the possibility of a separate Palestinian state is dead..therefore lets move on and long live a united Israel where Palestinians and Jews share the land in  a truly secular one man one vote democracy. What's wrong with equal rights for all in the same land?

Never going to happen.
Israel fears the Palestinian population would soon become the majority. Years of a dissident minority becoming the majority. 

Multiculturalism isn’t going to work either. If anything young Isrealis are more intolerant than Netanyahu.

Saw Bibi interviewed maybe 25 years ago. His response to the Palestinians was: “how long did take to drive the Moors out of Spain”? Over 700 years for those counting. Realized then there’ll never be a solution with Netanyahu in power.
There may be two settlement once Israel has all the territory it thinks it needs. Which leaves the Palestinians nowhere.

 

[talahtnut]

Put simply Israel is stealing land

with military advantage.

Israel has violated 28 resolutions of

the United Nations Security Council

(which are legally binding on

member-nations U.N. Charter,

Article 25 (1945);

Israel has no shame.

[Morch]

55 minutes ago, RobFord said:

Never going to happen.
Israel fears the Palestinian population would soon become the majority. Years of a dissident minority becoming the majority. 

Multiculturalism isn’t going to work either. If anything young Isrealis are more intolerant than Netanyahu.

Saw Bibi interviewed maybe 25 years ago. His response to the Palestinians was: “how long did take to drive the Moors out of Spain”? Over 700 years for those counting. Realized then there’ll never be a solution with Netanyahu in power.
There may be two settlement once Israel has all the territory it thinks it needs. Which leaves the Palestinians nowhere.

 

 

If it's not going to happen, it's due to both sides not being into it, and either having a significant element of religious, nationalistic members. That's without counting the bad blood which drives even moderates and potential moderates to mutual distrust and antagonism.

 

Going on about Netanyahu is fine. It just needs to be remembered that he's not the worse or even the most extreme Israeli right winger out there. Similarly, it's hardly the case that Palestinian leadership is all for peace, compromise and all the rest.

 

There is no general agreement in Israel with regard to policy regarding the West Bank, Palestinians and a whole lot of other issues. Like most countries, it can be very divided when it comes to these.