Majority of Scots support independence from UK - YouGov poll

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

What is the relevance of where Parliament sits ?

Parliament represent all constituencies in the UK , its not as if the UK Parliament is made up of just English politicians 

But when 550 of the 650 politicians are English, the rest are simply there for show.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

At the time I was not taking part in this discussion, so perhaps you will forgive me for not listening back then. Fired with a thirst for knowledge I googled the topic and came up with this BBC report (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470).

 

It doesn't seem like that clear an announcement, and as the report points out, when Mr Salmond made effectively the same proposal the UK said no! I am no currency expert either, {can never get enough of the damned stuff) but I would hardly consider "sterling would continue to be used until conditions were such that an Scottish currency could be created." a particularly coherent policy, especially with the UKs demonstrated reluctance to allow it. 

I think what the UK government said was that there would be no active cooperation, but I cannot see how, short of physically confiscating every last penny in Scotland, they could prevent it from continuing to use it s it is already held by Scots and it is an internationally traded currency. The simple fact would be, however, that Scotland would not have any control over monetary policy - much like the current situation. 

 

10 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Such a policy, along with many others in place from "Day One" would require a deal of co-operation from the rest of the UK (England), a well which the posturing and approach to any matters English by some in the SNP, (even if it is an unrepresentative "loony fringe"} might run dry surprisingly quickly!

I don't understand this at all - to which senior members of the SNP are you referring? 

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I think what the UK government said was that there would be no active cooperation, but I cannot see how, short of physically confiscating every last penny in Scotland, they could prevent it from continuing to use it s it is already held by Scots and it is an internationally traded currency. The simple fact would be, however, that Scotland would not have any control over monetary policy - much like the current situation. 

 

I don't understand this at all - to which senior members of the SNP are you referring? 

The UK could not actively prevent the Scots from using Sterling, however I think that the elephant in the room, upon which is perched the emperor with no clothes (what a deeply unpleasant image of Ms Sturgeon to conjure up) is the proposed Central Bank - active you will recall from Day 1 of independence. To be effective, and credible, it will need to have significant reserves upon which to draw. It would never do to have a newly independent Scotland defaulting on payments due in its initial weeks and months. Now I am sure that could be arranged, but it would require a coherent plan and policy, and the full active participation of the (UK) English Treasury. I don't see one, I don't think that the Treasury do, and I think the problem will be neither do the more financially astute amongst the Scottish voters. Certainly, as an Englishman, my cynicism will be confirmed and deepened if we find ourselves stumping up for Scotland, having had no say in the process, after the nation has departed in a blaze of blue and white face painted glory!

 

As for your second point, you are being disingenuous. I did not refer to any senior members of the SNP. However no-one can fail to be aware of the steady drip, drip, drip effect of a perceived anti English sentiment amongst some (many) Scottish Nationalists. The clowns with banners and slogans in the vernacular at Gretna and Glasgow Central Railway Station are two recent examples. They may or may not represent the SNP, but they are perceived as representing a significant and certainly vocal part of the Nationalist camp. Enough to annoy, and perhaps get in the way of any cooperation with the institutions of the newly independent Scotland.

Edited August 27, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I'm afraid that it really is a hollow argument this.

 

The official figures which show that Scotland relies upon the rest of the UK (well, let us not beat about the bush), England, to maintain it's finances are lies, twisted, Westminster propaganda and so on) yet whenever the SNP are asked the most basic questions about their fiscal policies, for example what currency will you use after independence they cannot/will not give a coherent answer - which is what sank their campaign for independence the last time round.

England cant prop itself up never mind the rest of the UK.

Its why we have a national deficit of 60 billion and a total debt of over 2000 billion.

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

The UK could not actively prevent the Scots from using Sterling, however I think that the elephant in the room, upon which is perched the emperor with no clothes (what a deeply unpleasant image of Ms Sturgeon to conjure up) is the proposed Central Bank - active you will recall from Day 1 of independence. To be effective, and credible, it will need to have significant reserves upon which to draw. It would never do to have a newly independent Scotland defaulting on payments due in its initial weeks and months. Now I am sure that could be arranged, but it would require a coherent plan and policy, and the full active participation of the (UK) English Treasury. I don't see one, I don't think that the treasury do, and I think the problem will be neither do the more financially astute amongst the Scottish voters. Certainly, as an Englishman, my cynicism will be confirmed and deepened if we find ourselves stumping up for Scotland, having had no say in the process, after the nation has departed in a blaze of blue and white face painted glory!

 

You need to help me understand your point more clearly. What is it you think England will be stumping up for? Do you expect the treasury to hand over a sizeable sum to allow an independent Scotland to start off with a nice little nest egg? The UK is one of the most debt-ridden countries in the developed world - if we were reliant upon the BoE to kick start our ambitions, I think we would be waiting a very long time. But that said, how do you think they will participate in a Scottish equivalent?

 

17 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

As for your second point, you are being disingenuous. I did not refer to any senior members of the SNP. However no-one can fail to be aware of the steady drip, drip, drip effect of a perceived anti English sentiment amongst some (many) Scottish Nationalists. The clowns with banners and slogans in the vernacular at Gretna and Glasgow Central Railway Station are two recent examples. They may or may not represent the SNP, but they are perceived as representing a significant and certainly vocal part of the Nationalist camp. Enough to annoy, and perhaps get in the way of any cooperation with the institutions of the newly independent Scotland.

Well that is unfortunate if a mere handful of idiots is perceived as being representative of over half the country. Then again, I would ask why we persist in sticking to a country that is, on the one hand, so utterly ignorant of us, and on the other, so willing to paint so many of us as racist on the back of their ignorance. 

 

And let's be honest - there is no doubt about the concerns of racism and xenophobia emanating from the behaviour of Farage, our racist Prime Minister, the overt racism on display across the streets of England every day that only seems to have gotten more sickening since Brexit emboldened the racists. Does that worry you about a humbled and diminished England's ability to cut a formidable figure in the world?

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

England cant prop itself up never mind the rest of the UK.

Its why we have a national deficit of 60 billion and a total debt of over 2000 billion.

To be honest, the allocation of deficit and debt is such a crock. If you look at the numbers, Scotland, Wales and NI make up around 15% of the UK population but are shouldered with 40% or so of the deficit? Utterly ludicrous, but what would you expect  from a party of corrupt liars?

[Rookiescot]

https://commonweal.scot/New Common Weal/cache/file/623E7E3F-C530-92A4-528C398196AAD7A1.pdf

 

It would appear setting up a new currency in Scotland is not that difficult after all.

Which makes sense when you think about it. After all Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Malta, United States and all the other countries (62 in total would you believe?) all managed to do it.

[CorpusChristie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The UK is one of the most debt-ridden countries in the developed world - if we were reliant upon the BoE to kick start our ambitions, I think we would be waiting a very long time. But that said, how do you think they will participate in a Scottish equivalent

An independent Scotland would take their share of the debt .

£ 78 000 is how much each British person owes in the National debt

£ 429 000 000 000 is the amount of Nation debt that Scotland would need to take with them 

[RuamRudy]

Just now, CorpusChristie said:

An independent Scotland would take their share of the debt .

£ 78 000 is how much each British person owes in the National debt

£ 429 000 000 000 is the amount of Nation debt that Scotland would need to take with them 

When you say 'take' how do you mean? 

 

Personally, if I was in charge I would require to see clear and open books explaining just how such a debt was accrued, and how it was apportioned. It is not that I think our government is corrupt or untrustworthy - it is that I know them to be.

 

But going back to my earlier question, what is the manner in which you would expect an independent Scotland to 'take' their fair and fully accounted share of the UK debt?

 

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

An independent Scotland would take their share of the debt .

£ 78 000 is how much each British person owes in the National debt

£ 429 000 000 000 is the amount of Nation debt that Scotland would need to take with them 

So Northern Irish do not figure in your calculations? 

 

PH

[herfiehandbag]

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You need to help me understand your point more clearly.

Let me make my point as simple as possible.

 

A new Central Bank, active from day 1 of independence, will need to have money to hand to pay bills from day 1. So yes they will need a "nice little nest egg" to start up. Now wether that will be a loan, a grant or some other accounting procedure will no doubt be negotiated, but they will need it. Not taking it into account, or acknowledging that, is indicative of a lack of coherent planning.

 

And again, on your second point: they may be a handful of idiots, but they are your handful of idiots, and they are creating (with others) an atmosphere of anti-English sentiment. 

Your views on Mr Farage (I'm not quite sure where he comes into it mind you, although he is a convenient English bogeyman) and Boris Johnson really have no relevance to this discussion, unless of course you consider that because Farage and Johnson are (in your book) racist it is perfectly justifiable to scream abuse at English motorists driving up the M6 or alighting at Glasgow Central Railway Station?

Edited August 27, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[CorpusChristie]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

When you say 'take' how do you mean? 

 

Personally, if I was in charge I would require to see clear and open books explaining just how such a debt was accrued, and how it was apportioned. It is not that I think our government is corrupt or untrustworthy - it is that I know them to be.

 

But going back to my earlier question, what is the manner in which you would expect an independent Scotland to 'take' their fair and fully accounted share of the UK debt?

 

Debt transferred , debt removed from the UK's debt and passed on to Scotland  .

Each person owes £ 70 000 in the UK in the National debt

Scotland has a population of 5.5 million

70 000 x 5.5 million equals £ 429 000 000 000

Dont spend it all at once ???? 

 

[CorpusChristie]

16 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

So Northern Irish do not figure in your calculations? 

 

PH

As far as I'm aware , Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain 

[adammike]

4 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Debt transferred , debt removed from the UK's debt and passed on to Scotland  .

Each person owes £ 70 000 in the UK in the National debt

Scotland has a population of 5.5 million

70 000 x 5.5 million equals £ 429 000 000 000

Dont spend it all at once ???? 

 

They can reclaim all the land that was gifted to the aristocracy,the English can do the same.The people can take back what's rightfully theirs.what would Eton college and say Balmoral be worth on the open market,that will do for starters.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Debt transferred , debt removed from the UK's debt and passed on to Scotland  .

Each person owes £ 70 000 in the UK in the National debt

Scotland has a population of 5.5 million

70 000 x 5.5 million equals £ 429 000 000 000

Dont spend it all at once ???? 

 

You do understand how government debt works, don't you? It isn't like there are bailiffs going to turn up and demand full repayment? If that was the case, the UK would be even more screwed than it already is. 

 

British pound sinking to ‘emerging market currency’ status

In the four years since the UK voted to leave the EU, trading conditions in the pound and the big swings in exchange rates make it a better match with the Mexican peso than the US dollar, said Kamal Sharma, a currency analyst at Bank of America.

[adammike]

9 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Debt transferred , debt removed from the UK's debt and passed on to Scotland  .

Each person owes £ 70 000 in the UK in the National debt

Scotland has a population of 5.5 million

70 000 x 5.5 million equals £ 429 000 000 000

Dont spend it all at once ???? 

 

What about all those Scots scattered world wide? when they apply for their Scottish passports they can pay a premium first time that will help.And flogging off all those stately homes and grounds.

[CorpusChristie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You do understand how government debt works, don't you? It isn't like there are bailiffs going to turn up and demand full repayment? If that was the case, the UK would be even more screwed than it already is. 

 

British pound sinking to ‘emerging market currency’ status

In the four years since the UK voted to leave the EU, trading conditions in the pound and the big swings in exchange rates make it a better match with the Mexican peso than the US dollar, said Kamal Sharma, a currency analyst at Bank of America.

How would that effect Scotlands inherited debt ?

A £'s a £ regardless of the exchange  rate.

 

[CorpusChristie]

14 minutes ago, adammike said:

They can reclaim all the land that was gifted to the aristocracy,the English can do the same.The people can take back what's rightfully theirs.what would Eton college and say Balmoral be worth on the open market,that will do for starters.

Balmoral was legally bought and paid for  , it wasnt gifted to anyone 

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Let me make my point as simple as possible.

 

A new Central Bank, active from day 1 of independence, will need to have money to hand to pay bills from day 1. So yes they will need a "nice little nest egg" to start up. Now wether that will be a loan, a grant or some other accounting procedure will no doubt be negotiated, but they will need it. Not taking it into account, or acknowledging that, is indicative of a lack of coherent planning.

 

 

But what you are failing to explain is why, inexplicably, this would be an impediment to Scotland whereas it has been done many, many times in the past in other new countries. 

And as you acknowledged just a few posts back, you were not conversant with the preparedness of the SNP in developing a strategy yet you persist in stating that there is no planning, whereas you simply were ignorant of the facts. Do you expect Sturgeon to make an appointment with you personally to explain it all?

 

16 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

And again, on your second point: they may be a handful of idiots, but they are your handful of idiots, and they are creating (with others) an atmosphere of anti-English sentiment. 

Your views on Mr Farage (I'm not quite sure where he comes into it mind you, although he is a convenient English bogeyman) and Boris Johnson really have no relevance to this discussion, unless of course you consider that because Farage and Johnson are (in your book) racist it is perfectly justifiable to scream abuse at English motorists driving up the M6 or alighting at Glasgow Central Railway Station?

They have total relevance in the form of equivalence. We, like every country, have idiots who sully our reputation. Your idiots are much more vocal and internationally recognised. My point was not about one idiot's actions nullifying the other's; it was whether you think that the rampant and very visible scourge of racism that seems to have infected every part of England in the most nauseating of ways is causing problems dealing with third party countries in the same way you suggest that the idiot with the saltire and the Go Home banner might do for an independent Scotland.  

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

How would that effect Scotlands inherited debt ?

A £'s a £ regardless of the exchange  rate.

 

But it won't be paid off in a lump sum - it will be, like the rump left behind, serviced. 

[Phulublub]

57 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

As far as I'm aware , Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain 

Just shows the lack of depth of understanding of some Little Englanders.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

37 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Balmoral was legally bought and paid for  , it wasnt gifted to anyone 

Just like the UK fishing quotas that UK trawlermen sold off then?

 

PH

[CorpusChristie]

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

Just shows the lack of depth of understanding of some Little Englanders.

 

PH

Do explain what it is that I dont understand ..even just give me a hint of what it is

[Phulublub]

1 minute ago, CorpusChristie said:

Do explain what it is that I dont understand ..even just give me a hint of what it is

To give the UK its full title, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 

 

PH

 

[Rookiescot]

30 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Balmoral was legally bought and paid for  , it wasnt gifted to anyone 

Ah but a share of the debt means a share of all the UK's assets. 

So a per head share of the bank of Englands gold reserves. A per head share of everything in fact. Even  assets like the palace of Westminster and 10 Downing street. Think we will have the windows out of them thanks very much.

[CorpusChristie]

2 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

To give the UK its full title, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 

 

PH

 

Thank you for educating me , you learn something new everyday .

 

[CorpusChristie]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah but a share of the debt means a share of all the UK's assets. 

So a per head share of the bank of Englands gold reserves. A per head share of everything in fact. Even  assets like the palace of Westminster and 10 Downing street. Think we will have the windows out of them thanks very much.

You will need to ask Gordon Brown about  the UK's gold reserves . 

Your share of UK assets will be whatever is in Scotland , you will have no claims to anything in England (apart from the debt)

Edited August 27, 2020 by CorpusChristie

[Rookiescot]

51 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Balmoral was legally bought and paid for  , it wasnt gifted to anyone 

Quite possibly. However an independent Scotland would be able to raise the council tax on such a property. Our country our rules.

Now I have no idea how much such tax could be levied at.

How much did you say Scotlands share of the debt is?

 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

You will need to ask Gordon Brown and the UK's gold reserves . 

Your share of UK assets will be whatever is in Scotland , you will have no claims to anything in England (apart from the debt)

Then we have no debt.

Show me where Scotland signed on the loan agreement.

No assets no debt. End of.

[CorpusChristie]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Then we have no debt.

Show me where Scotland signed on the loan agreement.

No assets no debt. End of.

As Scotland is  part on the United Kingdom of England, Great Britain, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales , Shetlands and Mull of Kintyre , the signed  agreement was on behalf of us all