End of visa amnesty may spell uncertainty for some expats in Thailand

[spiekerjozef]

16 hours ago, Deerculler said:

What happens if no one can find a flight out of Thailand?

Then they're all on 500 baht a day overstay.

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Note > When using the 40K monthly income transfer method, there are indeed some offices that - incorrectly - require 3 of such transfer instead of 2, but also these can be challenged although the PoliceOrder on that issue is rather cryptic (resulting in a situation that some officers even insist on 12 months of transfers instead of 2 when applying for your FIRST 1-year extension of stay) 

70389546_548-2562.changed327-2557(2019)Eng [english text only] [searchable].pdf 100.74 kB · 0 downloads

That is the wrong order. That is the one for the changes to retirement extensions. This the correct one.

Amendment to police order 138/2557 Revising clauses 2.18 and 2.22 to include options for proof of income 

 

[trucking]

14 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

The Police Order (see attached) is crystal clear that it needs only to be TWO months, so an officer incorrectly referring to 3 months can be easily 'overruled' by showing that PoliceOrder.

 

Thanks for that reassurance Peter. These days , even if you think you have got it all covered it pays to check and check again.

 

Thanks again to you and Joe for all the good advice. Much appreciated by all of us.

 

As an aside , I have just finished reading the thread by the Dutch guy who went back to Holland for a new visa then returned here.

 

As much as I need to go to the UK it is far better and cheaper for me not to leave than attempt what he just went through.

[Peter Denis]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is the wrong order. That is the one for the changes to retirement extensions. This the correct one.

Amendment to police order 138/2557 Revising clauses 2.18 and 2.22 to include options for proof of income

The attachment I added referred to the 400K funds-in-bank method the OP mentioned (and which is crystal clear that only TWO months of seasoning are required).

But thanks, for adding the Police Order that governs the monthly-income transfer method.

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 hour ago, HampiK said:

I think for retired people the biggest change was, that you have to put the money longer and can access only 400K. Meaning 400K have to stay the whole year while the other 400K have to stay 5 months.

Yes there have been some changes in that the bank deposit has to remain in the account for a period of time both before and after the retirement extension application is made...so no more borrowing the funds and depositing them the day before and withdrawing them the day after the application. Which again, was a way to get around the purpose of the rule...that the applicant have sufficient funds to pay for their stay in Thailand. This doesn't affect me as I deposited a million baht in a Thai bank years ago when I first reach retirement qualification age and haven't touched it since so this "change" never affected me.

[ubonjoe]

38 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

The attachment I added referred to the 400K funds-in-bank method the OP mentioned (and which is crystal clear that only TWO months of seasoning are required).

But thanks, for adding the Police Order that governs the monthly-income transfer method.

Again that was for clause 2.22 of the police order for extension based upon retirement.

Marriage is clause 2.18.

[0815]

22 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Not to be a smart a$$, but where are they expected to go? An exodus to Cambodia?   Sierra Leone? Congo?  The flights to the EU are prohibitively expensive for many of them and too many have nowhere to go home to. I have a  feeling we could see  a few thousand people in dire straits.

Wasn't there enough time to find a solution since April ?

[Peter Denis]

25 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Again that was for clause 2.22 of the police order for extension based upon retirement.

Marriage is clause 2.18.

Hi UJ,

Yes my bad and thanks for correcting me.

Need a strong cup of coffee to get me 'sharp' again.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Yes there have been some changes in that the bank deposit has to remain in the account for a period of time both before and after the retirement extension application is made...so no more borrowing the funds and depositing them the day before and withdrawing them the day after the application. Which again, was a way to get around the purpose of the rule...that the applicant have sufficient funds to pay for their stay in Thailand. This doesn't affect me as I deposited a million baht in a Thai bank years ago when I first reach retirement qualification age and haven't touched it since so this "change" never affected me.

But, for 15K to 25K Baht, an agent can "flash" the 800K in/out of the account in ONE DAY, getting a bank-letter in the interim, submit your application with brown-envelope, and that is OK. 

 

Note that 'same day" in/out money was only possible w/ an agent before, as it was 3 mo seasoning pre-application,  prior to the recent changes.

 

Therefore, beyond any doubt, the "tougher rules" are about disqualifying HONEST Applicants to generate more Agent-Laundered Graft - not stoping those who 'have insufficient funds" to pay for their stay in Thailand.  

 

It is a silly notion regardless, because there is no welfare for farangs here, so anyone without "sufficient funds" could be found sleeping on a sidewalk, arrested for vagrancy, deported, and banned.

Edited August 17, 2020 by JackThompson

[OJAS]

20 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

I presume that most of those in that group have in mean-time 'bitten the insurance-bullet' and subscribed to that #$%^& Non Imm O-A compliant retirement extension health-insurance policy.  Luckily there is an affordable thai IO-approved health-insurance policy available that meets the IO-requirements > i.e. the LMG Insurance Plan 1 (with 200K deductible) policy with an annual premium of 6.000 to 11.400 THB in the age-categories of 51 to 75 years of age (with the additional advantage that subscribing to that policy does not require any medical exam).

Note: I compiled a document outlining how to apply for that LMG insurance policy, with tips & caveats and PM-ed it already many times to those requesting it.

I principally have in mind retirees who are unable (rather than unwilling) to "bite the insurance bullet" on age and/or medical history grounds. What would you suggest for those who might find themselves in that invidious position, bearing in mind that the option of avoiding the insurance requirement through cancelling their original non-OA visa by exiting the country without a re-entry permit and applying for a new non-O visa at a Royal Thai embassy or consulate in a neighbouring ASEAN country is, of course, not available to them at the present time, with no guarantee that it will be by 26 September?

Edited August 17, 2020 by OJAS

[Peter Denis]

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

I was principally referring to retirees who are unable (rather than unwilling) to "bite the insurance bullet" on age and/or medical history grounds. So what would you suggest for those who might find themselves in that invidious position, bearing in mind that the option of avoiding the insurance requirement through cancelling their original non-OA visa by exiting the country and applying for a new non-O visa at a Royal Thai embassy or consulate in a neighbouring ASEAN country is, of course, not available to them at the present time, with no guarantee that it will be by 26 September?

Hi OJAS,

That would be a typical and clear-cut case where the local IO could provide leniency and not insist on the thai IO-approved health-insurance. 

Before covid-times those over +75 years of age and thus impossible for them to get such an IO-approved policy (none of the TGIA insurers provides it to over +75 years of age applicants), were advised by their local IO to do a border-run and switch to a Non Imm O Visa and subsequent 1-year extension of stay.  With borders closed that option is not available anymore, so these +75 years of age Non Imm O-A Visa extension holders simply cannot meet the requirements, hence leniency by waving the requirement is the only realistic option.

Also do note that several IOs are presently NOT enforcing that IO-approved health-insurance requirement.  Most probably because they realize that during the Amnesty there is no possibility to switch to a Non Imm O Visa.  Phuket IO even officially announced that they will NOT enforce it and that they will evaluate that non-enforcement policy in course of October. 

 

[KhaoYai]

20 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

An interesting perspective and I agree with your sentiments; however a couple points I'm unsure about. 1. Where do you get the information that commercial flights are arriving daily in Bangkok? My understanding is that the only passenger flights arriving are the government organized repatriation flights. Supposedly some airlines are selling tickets on flights to Bangkok but these inevitably get cancelled. As to quarantining at home...why, so returnees can spread the virus to those in their family circle...and they, who are not quarantined, can go on to spread it at school, at work, and the public at large? All of the domestic cases for months now have been in quarantined returnees. The only way this could work is if the family unit joined in the quarantine. 

I did answer your questions but it seems I'm not allowed to. My reply was polite, truthful and in no way argumentative. As far as I can remember, it did not break any forum rules yet it, and several other posts have been deleted. Time to retire to the position of luker me thinks.

[CorpusChristie]

11 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I did answer your questions but it seems I'm not allowed to. My reply was polite, truthful and in no way argumentative. As far as I can remember, it did not break any forum rules yet it, and several other posts have been deleted. Time to retire to the position of luker me thinks.

Maybe you posted some false/incorrect information ? (Not on purpose)

[KhaoYai]

8 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Maybe you posted some false/incorrect information ? (Not on purpose)

I did not but if someone felt I did - perhaps it would have been better to challenge it rather than delete it?  I have no idea what the reason for the deletion was because when it happens you are not notified of the reason.

[Kalasin Jo]

Well as I have somewhere else I can go and things are so uncertain for me, long expired Non O multi based on marriage, 90 day then 60 day extension used in accordance with the regulations and expired 9 June.  I dont mind leaving, would have done so ages ago if I'd been able to get a new non O " locally". What I'm unhappy about is that I don't know when I can come back without hassle and extra expense  not on what visa. I'm taking my wife with me but she only has a 90 day Schengen visa and  that too may pose problems for a longer stay and if she can't her return to Thailand.

[vinny41]

25 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Well as I have somewhere else I can go and things are so uncertain for me, long expired Non O multi based on marriage, 90 day then 60 day extension used in accordance with the regulations and expired 9 June.  I dont mind leaving, would have done so ages ago if I'd been able to get a new non O " locally". What I'm unhappy about is that I don't know when I can come back without hassle and extra expense  not on what visa. I'm taking my wife with me but she only has a 90 day Schengen visa and  that too may pose problems for a longer stay and if she can't her return to Thailand.

You could both go to Turkey for 90 days no visa required for Thai national and then use the 90 day  Schengen visa after that depending when the Schengen visa expires

[gearbox]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

You could both go to Turkey for 90 days no visa required for Thai national and then use the 90 day  Schengen visa after that depending when the Schengen visa expires

Thais get only 30 days visa free in Turkey.

[fondue zoo]

Spoke to a CW officer today on the phone, asking about options for someone on Amnesty time.

Amnesty time - (Visa and any eligible Extension of Stay already used.)

 

She would allow a first time 1 year extension for a Non Immigration O visa (Spouse) but only with the 400K for two months, August/September option.

The monthly income method, show a 40K deposit per month for two months, August/September, was not an option.

 

She said it is not known if they will extend the Amnesty again.  (not an outright "no chance in hell" answer)

She professed no knowledge of the Special Dispensation option.  (half expected)

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by fondue zoo

[jackdd]

30 minutes ago, fondue zoo said:

She said it is not known if they will extend the Amnesty again.  (not an outright "no chance in hell" answer)

Immigration was already against the last extension, so most certainly they are also against any further extension. Luckily for us it's not immigration who makes the decision, but the ministers in the Cabinet.

[fondue zoo]

2 hours ago, fondue zoo said:

Spoke to a CW officer today on the phone, asking about options for someone on Amnesty time.

Amnesty time - (Visa and any eligible Extension of Stay already used.)

 

She would allow a first time 1 year extension for a Non Immigration O visa (Spouse) but only with the 400K for two months, August/September option.

The monthly income method, show a 40K deposit per month for two months, August/September, was not an option.

 

She said it is not known if they will extend the Amnesty again.  (not an outright "no chance in hell" answer)

She professed no knowledge of the Special Dispensation option.  (half expected)

 

 

Just for the hell of it we rang an hour later and received a different answer:

400K with 2 months history, August September - OK

40K with 12 months history - Now is OK

 

As has been mentioned in other topics, a first 12 month extension requires only a 2 month history of 40K deposits.

We were very clear that it was a first time extension but she was adamant that it must be a 12 months history.

 

We are considering visiting in person with an iPad to show the Order that states 2 months is enough... if we can find said Order to show them.

Although when I think about that it's highly doubtful it will change anything.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by fondue zoo

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, fondue zoo said:

We are considering visiting in person with an iPad to show the Order that states 2 months is enough... if we can find said Order to show them.

Numbers 21 and 22 in this pinned topic in English and Thai.. https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/981135-laws-regulations-police-orders-etc/

 

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, fondue zoo said:

As has been mentioned in other topics, a first 12 month extension requires only a 2 month history of 40K deposits.

We were very clear that it was a first time extension but she was adamant that it must be a 12 months history.

I think it was never supposed to be "2 months", or "12 months", but you are supposed to show the income for every month which you have been in Thailand (which happens to be 2 months if you entered non-o and apply for an extension before your permit expires, or 12 months if you had a one year extension already)

So if you entered with a non-o visa, used three months, and have been three further months on the "amnesty", you would have to show 6 months of income.

Or if you entered with a non-o visa, got a 60 days to visit Thai wife extension, and apply for a one year extension before it expires, you would be supposed to show 4 months of income.

Edited August 20, 2020 by jackdd

[ChipButty]

On 8/17/2020 at 9:54 PM, vinny41 said:

You could both go to Turkey for 90 days no visa required for Thai national and then use the 90 day  Schengen visa after that depending when the Schengen visa expires

Thailand citizens don't need visa for travelling to Turkey as tourist. The maximum duration of stay is 30 days.

[Peter Denis]

40 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I think it was never supposed to be "2 months", or "12 months", but you are supposed to show the income for every month which you have been in Thailand (which happens to be 2 months if you entered non-o and apply for an extension before your permit expires, or 12 months if you had a one year extension already)

So if you entered with a non-o visa, used three months, and have been three further months on the "amnesty", you would have to show 6 months of income.

Or if you entered with a non-o visa, got a 60 days to visit Thai wife extension, and apply for a one year extension before it expires, you would be supposed to show 4 months of income.

That makes sense. 

And it would explain the requirement of 2 months of monthly income-transfers when applying FIRST TIME for the 1-year extension of stay in 'normal times'.  

Requiring 12 months of monthly income transfers for a first time application is of course totally ridiculous, but unfortunately that nonsense interpretation is now being applied at some IOs, effectively making the use of that method impossible when applying there.  

[finy]

18 hours ago, ChipButty said:

Thailand citizens don't need visa for travelling to Turkey as tourist. The maximum duration of stay is 30 days.

And applying for residence permit online before end of 30 days costs around $85 (plus $100 insurance) for 12 months.