Are Hilux Vigo Champ Handbrakes Just Bad?

[Formaleins]

Next in the Vigo saga, are Vigo Champ's handbrakes just pretty lame? This 2012 will just not hold on a steep hill, it rolls back and just does not bite and grip like the old Toyota Tiger 3.0L 4x4.

I have adjusted the brakes to the point that the handbrake lever is getting about 4 or 5 clicks and is taking about 100 Ft/Lbs to apply and the damn think still wont lock like my old 2002 Tiger. Got new tyres a couple of weeks back Bquick inspected and cleaned the brakes and gave it a clean bill of health, but these things are useless. Even my 120 KG son cannot muster enough arm power to hold this thing without it slipping slowly backwards.

 

The old Tiger, if you yanked on the handbrake while driving would lock the back wheels, you couldn't do a handbrake turn or lock the wheels on the Vigo if you were on ice!

 

I am not sure what the options are, I have read on a few forums the handbrake is junk, but I really cannot believe that this would pass a brake inspection so something is wrong....I will open it up tomorrow and recheck the shoes and drums, could a cheap set of shoes cause this? Would you replace with genuine Toyota, TRW or Bendix?

 

Thanks again for any suggestions!

Edited September 3, 2020 by Formaleins

[Susco]

3 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

I will open it up tomorrow and recheck the shoes and drums, could a cheap set of shoes cause this? Would you replace with genuine Toyota, YTW or Bendix?

Looks like you just answered your own question.

 

From your own remarks I can assume that you decided on cheap brake shoes, instead of quality stuff, then resort on blaming Toyota.

[stubuzz]

Jack the back of the car up and pull on the handbrake. Then check how much force is needed to rotate the wheels. If one or both spin easily, disassemble the offending side (s) and check for rusted/pivots or sticky handbrake cable.

Please note that there should be free play in the cable. if not, slacken before adjusting the shoes.

 

Post pictures if more help is needed.

[Formaleins]

15 minutes ago, Susco said:

Looks like you just answered your own question.

 

From your own remarks I can assume that you decided on cheap brake shoes, instead of quality stuff, then resort on blaming Toyota.

No, I have no idea what brake shoes are fitted. Bquick told me they were fine but I never looked to see what brand. The brake shoes are what were on the truck when I bought it. That was why I was asking if the brand would make so much difference.

 

If I go out and pull the drums off tomorrow and they are a no name set of shoes, then would fitting a set of TRW or Toyota genuine make a difference? That is what I am asking.

[stubuzz]

 

Just now, Formaleins said:

If I go out and pull the drums off tomorrow and they are a no name set of shoes, then would fitting a set of TRW or Toyota genuine make a difference? That is what I am asking.

No, not really. It will be connected to adjustment.

[Formaleins]

1 minute ago, stubuzz said:

Jack the back of the car up and pull on the handbrake. Then check how much force is needed to rotate the wheels. If one or both spin easily, disassemble the offending side (s) and check for rusted/pivots or sticky handbrake cable.

Please note that there should be free play in the cable. if not, slacken before adjusting the shoes.

 

Post pictures if more help is needed.

Thanks, cables have fee play, shoes are moving freely, just been cleaned and blown out at Bquick last month. The mechanics of the brakes seem to working fine it just seems they have almost no gripping power. As I said in the original post, the old Tiger could lock the back wheels if you you yanked the brake on, this thing barely slows down.

 

Wondering if the shoe material / manufacturer could make so much difference? I bought cheap shoes back in the UK years ago, and no they were not Brembo's but even the cheapest junk could hold a car on a hill.

[Susco]

A lot will depend on the condition of the shoes and the drums. How many km has the car?

 

Low quality shoes may be hard, and wear the drums.

 

If the car has no problem stopping with the foot brake, then it will probably the cable that has to be adjusted

[Formaleins]

3 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

 

No, not really. It will be connected to adjustment.

So maybe you are suspecting that the self adjusters are not doing their job?

[stubuzz]

 

2 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

So maybe you are suspecting that the self adjusters are not doing their job?

Yes, Self adjusters rarely work and need to be manually adjusted.

[Formaleins]

Just now, Susco said:

A lot will depend on the condition of the shoes and the drums. How many km has the car?

 

Low quality shoes may be hard, and wear the drums.

 

If the car has no problem stopping with the foot brake, then it will probably the cable that has to be adjusted

The car only has about 65K on it, the footbrake is vicious compared to the Tiger, this thing will throw you through the windscreen if you step on it. the Tiger, well you had to brace yourself, two hands on the steering to get leverage and the press for all you were worth (it even had ABS) However the Tiger handbrake was 100% better than this thing.

[Formaleins]

Just now, stubuzz said:

 

Yes, Self adjusters rarely work and need to be manually adjusted.

OK, I will take a look at them tomorrow. What I don't understand is how you can adjust the cables to get 4 or 5 clicks and everything is tight, but the self adjusters are not working? Surely if there is no slack in the cables and you pull them on it will take up any of the self adjuster problem? I could understand it if I was pulling the brake on and it was pointing at the roof....

 

I am listening, just not understanding completely, not doubting your advice, just trying to understand why adjusting the cables does not compensate for the self adjusters.

 

Keep posting as this is an old dog learning something new and your help is welcome! Thanks.

[stubuzz]

3 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

I am listening, just not understanding completely, not doubting your advice, just trying to understand why adjusting the cables does not compensate for the self adjusters.

Brakes are designed to adjusted from the adjusters, not the cable. Over adjusted cables allow the adjusters to de adjust themselves. You will see there is a metal leg that sits on the adjusmeny wheel this moves with the handbrake and is the self-adjusting mechanism.

When you take off the drum and pull the handbrake, you can see how it works.

 

[Formaleins]

7 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

Brakes are designed to adjusted from the adjusters, not the cable. Over adjusted cables allow the adjusters to de adjust themselves. You will see there is a metal leg that sits on the adjusmeny wheel this moves with the handbrake and is the self-adjusting mechanism.

When you take off the drum and pull the handbrake, you can see how it works.

 

Thank you, I will be spending a bit of time on it tomorrow. I ran out of daylight today after fitting a "semi" blanking plate to my EGR valve, removing the battery and giving the mounting plate some Red Lead as a previous leaking battery was eating the metal away faster than my wife eats noodles. And then had to replace and re-wire a fog light relay and switch - (encouraging though as I suspected the previous owner had fitted some 12V 10 Watt junk, but it turned out to be 55W Halogens! So sometimes you come out on the good side) Cheers for the help!

[Swimfan]

Drums may be worn uneven. Machine drums replace with quality pads and try again. 

[transam]

The rear brakes are not self adjusting, you will see a rubber bung near the top of the backplate, pull that off then you can adjust through the window. When you have done that your handbrake will be back to normal.

 

B-Quik never charge me for that if they are doing another job..

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by transam

[Hi Tea]

Adjust the hand brake to be fully applied with three clicks!

[HauptmannUK]

My guess is that what has happened is that the handbrake has been adjusted up on the cables rather than the shoe adjusters. Now when you pull on the handbrake the shoe levers have hit the limit of their travel and so the shoe is not being pulled hard against the drum.

What you need to do....

1. Slacken off the cable - a lot!

2. Jack up rear wheels and then, one at a time, tighten up adjusters until the wheel locks. Now back off adjuster until the wheel JUST turns freely with no brake drag..

3. Now tighten cable until wheels lock at 4-5 clicks on the handbrake.

[Formaleins]

Well, I tried all the various methods (rear brakes ARE self adjusting and they were working) - Took it to Toyota, they checked it out in the workshop, found the same as me and Bquick. brakes looked fine.

Then they took it for a road test, then up and down a ramp for half an hour, then it went back in the workshop and was stripped down again.

 

They eventually turned around and said the drums were "Glazed", gave me a name and place that would grind off the glaze - Did the job in 15 minutes, the brakes are better, but nowhere near what I would expect. I guess the next step is to replace the shoes. (Toyota sanded them, I cleaned them Bquick cleaned them, probably baked through, so I guess it is time to put on a new set.

 

Funny, three different people trying to solve it and no one got it! Not even Toyota, Got to admit, I have never seen this problem before in almost 60 years.

[Formaleins]

On 9/3/2020 at 9:23 PM, Swimfan said:

Drums may be worn uneven. Machine drums replace with quality pads and try again. 

You pretty much got it, the drums / shoes had become glazed!

[Formaleins]

On 9/4/2020 at 9:20 AM, transam said:

The rear brakes are not self adjusting, you will see a rubber bung near the top of the backplate, pull that off then you can adjust through the window. When you have done that your handbrake will be back to normal.

 

B-Quik never charge me for that if they are doing another job..

 

The rear brakes are self adjusting, but the ratchet mechanism is faster to set using that little hole at the back after fitting new shoes. The self adjusters were all working fine, it seems another previous owner probably fried the brakes (like they normally do ) when coming down a hill! No idea whatsoever of engine braking, just foot on the brakes all the way down the mountain until the pads and shoes are smoking. What can you expect when no one actually teaches them to drive?

 

Imagine the younger drivers today, with their fully automatic cars, Hill start assist, electronic handbrake and all this other <deleted> they put on cars.... imagine if they had to get into a manual transmission, with an actual hand brake and then see them do a hill start!

 

What do these wet gender neutral cretins do these days other than a racing start? How is it they cannot go around a corner without sitting on the brakes? Do you even think they know what a Handbrake turn is? The skill and the feeling has been taken out of everything, they want their damn phones to do it for them!

Edited September 5, 2020 by Formaleins

[transam]

11 hours ago, Formaleins said:

The rear brakes are self adjusting, but the ratchet mechanism is faster to set using that little hole at the back after fitting new shoes. The self adjusters were all working fine, it seems another previous owner probably fried the brakes (like they normally do ) when coming down a hill! No idea whatsoever of engine braking, just foot on the brakes all the way down the mountain until the pads and shoes are smoking. What can you expect when no one actually teaches them to drive?

 

Imagine the younger drivers today, with their fully automatic cars, Hill start assist, electronic handbrake and all this other <deleted> they put on cars.... imagine if they had to get into a manual transmission, with an actual hand brake and then see them do a hill start!

 

What do these wet gender neutral cretins do these days other than a racing start? How is it they cannot go around a corner without sitting on the brakes? Do you even think they know what a Handbrake turn is? The skill and the feeling has been taken out of everything, they want their damn phones to do it for them!

As of yet, I have never known the handbrake ratchet thing to work on any of my cars, not even my newish weee Suzuki, they said "handbrake" at my Suzuki garage, I said "Naaah", I showed them how to do it, but it did mean taking the drums off, well, they were cleaning the crud out anyhooooo...With the Vigo, B-quik knew the handbrake thing was useless, they were programmed to adjust through the "window", probably why Toyota put one there...????

[Hi Tea]

15 hours ago, Formaleins said:

Do you even think they know what a Handbrake turn is?

Why would anyone using a vehicle on the road "even" need to know what a handbrake turn is?  Perhaps all drivers should know how to perfectly execute a reverse flick also?

Edited September 6, 2020 by Hi Tea

[Lancashirelad]

On 9/4/2020 at 4:37 AM, Hi Tea said:

Adjust the hand brake to be fully applied with three clicks!

Not correct. Would not allow for free play in the cable, risk if dragging shoes. As has been mentioned, about  is right.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Lancashirelad

[Lancashirelad]

* risk OF dragging shoes.

 

(having problem's attempting to edit posts recently).

[Formaleins]

Finally the saga is resolved! I originally cleaned and adjusted the brakes and cables, Bquick cleaned, adjusted the brakes and cables, Toyota cleaned adjusted the brakes and cables,  all to normal specs. Took it to Bquick again today to change the shoes, however it was a Bquick Slow day, 3 hour wait so I took it to a shop in Pasang. I wanted to put on new shoes but they were not having it, they said the shoes were fine and the cables were not adjusted correctly. They adjusted them AGAIN! and guess what....slipping yet again on a slope.

 

Finally, I had had enought, took the truck to my local TOR testing station and asked the guy to put it on the rollers and test the brakes. (initially told me his roller tester was not very good but in the end agreed) I wasn't bothered about accuracy, just comparison measurements. After 10 minutes we got about 2.7 tons of braking force on the front brakes, evenly balanced, but only about 700-900KG unbalanced force on the rears, and even worse using the handbrake.

 

So finally we had some figures and proof, I was starting to believe these idiots telling me this was normal....I never had any car or truck that could not hold its own weight on any sort of hill.

 

Told me it would not pass a government test in a million years.

 

Took it back to the guy who reground the brakes, he did another regrind then fitted new shoes, totally different motor, stops on a dime, no front end diving, virtually perfect.

 

Toyota wanted 3500 for new shoes.

Bquick wanted 1600

Pasang wanted 1100

 

San Patong regrind and some cheap shoes 800 Baht! Car is like a dream when braking, even if these cheap shoes last 6 mont6hs it does not matter, I can pay the 3.5K for Toyota or 1.6K at Bquick and know the problem is resolved.

 

The funniest thing is, the guys on Pasang would not fit new shoes (1100 Baht) they just wanted to adjust things for 180 Baht, the guy at the TRO would not take one Baht of the 200 Baht I tried to give him for his time, so at no point did I feel they were pulling a fast one, they seemed to be genuine guys trying to fix things without skinning me, unfortunately, the messing about probably cost me more in Diesel!

 

Anyway all sorted, when these cheapo shoes wear out, I might consider a set from Toyota or a set of Bendix from Bquick. Finally I can pull the damn brake on and stop on a slope without sliding backwards

Edited September 11, 2020 by Formaleins

[Formaleins]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:24 AM, transam said:

As of yet, I have never known the handbrake ratchet thing to work on any of my cars, not even my newish weee Suzuki, they said "handbrake" at my Suzuki garage, I said "Naaah", I showed them how to do it, but it did mean taking the drums off, well, they were cleaning the crud out anyhooooo...With the Vigo, B-quik knew the handbrake thing was useless, they were programmed to adjust through the "window", probably why Toyota put one there...????

Suzuki quality is junk! Buy Toyota. (unless it is an old model Vitara 2,0L, which was actually a decent motor - they were better sticking to motorbikes!) anyone that ever had the misfortune to use a Carribean would vouch for their terrible build quality. Hell, the damn windows used to drop open if you hit a bump. The first one I ever hired her, the owner told me NEVER EVER move it into 4WD unless I wanted to pay for a tow!

[transam]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:47 PM, Formaleins said:

Suzuki quality is junk! Buy Toyota. (unless it is an old model Vitara 2,0L, which was actually a decent motor - they were better sticking to motorbikes!) anyone that ever had the misfortune to use a Carribean would vouch for their terrible build quality. Hell, the damn windows used to drop open if you hit a bump. The first one I ever hired her, the owner told me NEVER EVER move it into 4WD unless I wanted to pay for a tow!

I have a 2015 Suzuki Celerio GL auto with 101,000km on the clock, perhaps in your wisdom you could tell me what's wrong with it. You can forget, rattles, sqeaks, knocks and bad plastic fitting because there are none...?

 

As mentioned elsewhere, I had a Toyota Vigo 4x4 auto for 11+ years, the handbrake worked perfectly, manually adjusting the shoes, and having "P" backup makes the difference. ????

[alacrity]

On 9/6/2020 at 7:24 AM, transam said:

As of yet, I have never known the handbrake ratchet thing to work on any of my cars, not even my newish weee Suzuki, they said "handbrake" at my Suzuki garage, I said "Naaah", I showed them how to do it, but it did mean taking the drums off, well, they were cleaning the crud out anyhooooo...With the Vigo, B-quik knew the handbrake thing was useless, they were programmed to adjust through the "window", probably why Toyota put one there...????

Standard maintenance for drum brakes. Has been for many decades. Not just a Toyota innovation.

A goodly percentage of "mechanics/technicians" can't/won't read the manuals, or listen to their team leader whom can't read either.

Competence isn't a direct reflection of any companies competencies.  If I find competence, I give them repetitious visits.  Our local B-quick is garbage and local is more than a 100km round trip.

 

Stuff like brakes, I do myself. I've got a 2 post lift.

[transam]

12 hours ago, alacrity said:

Standard maintenance for drum brakes. Has been for many decades. Not just a Toyota innovation.

A goodly percentage of "mechanics/technicians" can't/won't read the manuals, or listen to their team leader whom can't read either.

Competence isn't a direct reflection of any companies competencies.  If I find competence, I give them repetitious visits.  Our local B-quick is garbage and local is more than a 100km round trip.

 

Stuff like brakes, I do myself. I've got a 2 post lift.

Wish I did.....????

[alacrity]

On 9/14/2020 at 8:52 AM, transam said:

Wish I did.....????

Beats grovelling around on the floor when you're not as supple as you once were. Reduces levels of incompetence you are forced to deal with, for needed simple tasks, also.

 

Rarely see torque drivers in workshops here and I include some popular dealerships in my comment. With fewer setting them to the correct torque, even if they know what torque should be be set. Most use them for show.

Appearance is everything to the unknowing.