Extending DC wire to led strip

[Polarizing]

I am in a situation where I want to hide the AC DC adaptor and I need the DC wire to be about 1,5 meters long which will ultimately lead to my led strip. I know it's better to extend on the AC side but im not able to hide the adaptor then. What is the best wire to extend DC so the voltage drop is as small as possible? The thicker the better? Won't I be better of just using AC wire then?
Thanks

[bankruatsteve]

What is the DC voltage and watt rating for the LED strip?  Assuming nothing abnormal for either, you could probably extend with just about any size wire you have on hand (like from an appliance that doesn't work anymore).  The amp rating for wire same for DC as AC for short distance.

[sometimewoodworker]

26 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

am in a situation where I want to hide the AC DC adaptor and I need the DC wire to be about 1,5 meters long which will ultimately lead to my led strip. I know it's better to extend on the AC side but im not able to hide the adaptor then. What is the best wire to extend DC so the voltage drop is as small as possible? The thicker the better? Won't I be better of just using AC wire then?

Extending on either side by that short a length makes no difference. If your strip is in a fixed location then probably the thinnest easily available, 1.5mm sq, single core will be OK, unless your LED strip is tens/hundreds of metres long. 
 

There is no such thing as AC wire

[Polarizing]

27 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

What is the DC voltage and watt rating for the LED strip?  

12v 6W

 

17 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There is no such thing as AC wire

Lets say I want to use 2.5 sq mm, since I have that available. How do I connect that to the led strip? I saw connectors like the link below, will those fit? Which size do I need?
https://www.lazada.co.th/products/5pcs-2pin-3pin-4pin-5pin-6pin-led-strip-connector-for-rgb-rgbw-rgbww-3528-5050-led-strip-light-wire-connection-terminal-splice5-2pin-3pin-4pin-5pin-6pin-rgb-rgb-w-rgbww-3528-5050-led-strip-s-plice-i892410785-s1795484778.html?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

10 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

12v 6W

 

Lets say I want to use 2.5 sq mm, since I have that available. How do I connect that to the led strip? I saw connectors like the link below, will those fit? Which size do I need?
https://www.lazada.co.th/products/5pcs-2pin-3pin-4pin-5pin-6pin-led-strip-connector-for-rgb-rgbw-rgbww-3528-5050-led-strip-light-wire-connection-terminal-splice5-2pin-3pin-4pin-5pin-6pin-rgb-rgb-w-rgbww-3528-5050-led-strip-s-plice-i892410785-s1795484778.html?

 

2.5mm is way overkill for the job and not very flexible. If your strip doesn’t have any pigtails on it now none of those will accept 2.5mm. You need a couple of pieces of thin multi core between the strip and your supply cable. But if your going to have to buy something anyway just get enough to go all the way. 0.5mm or 0.25mm will be easily big enough and much easier to deal with than the 2.5mm

 

if the correct size Connector comes with wires then a wago connector is the easiest way to extend them. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[Polarizing]

9 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

2.5mm is way overkill for the job and not very flexible. If your strip doesn’t have any pigtails on it now none of those will accept 2.5mm. You need a couple of pieces of thin multi core between the strip and your supply cable. But if your going to have to buy something anyway just get enough to go all the way. 0.5mm or 0.25mm will be easily big enough and much easier to deal with than the 2.5mm

Thanks, which connector do you recommend to go with it?

[bankruatsteve]

16 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

Lets say I want to use 2.5 sq mm, since I have that available. How do I connect that to the led strip?

^yeah.  It seems like you would just want to splice in to whatever is there now.  IE: cut somewhere (not connected to power, yah) and splice in extension.  You could use the connectors used in auto electronics or even (gulp) twist and tape.  Solder connection would be good if you have.  The type wire used in cars would be good or even lamp cord (only need for 0.5 amp) but 2.5mm² is way over the top.

[sometimewoodworker]

Just now, Polarizing said:

Thanks, which connector do you recommend to go with it?

No idea, as I don’t have your strip. The connection depends on the strip. 
personally I would solder the pigtails on, not use a connector on the strip, then I use a wago on to that

[Polarizing]

this dimmable driver has 4 slots on the dc side compared to my led strip which was connected via 2 wires, what is the best way to convert a two wire led strip to a 4 wire one?I currently have philips 6w led strips

 

edit: or should i just buy 6 holed wago's and  make it 4 in 2 out? If i correctly understand how the dim driver works, this should work right? 

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/10000036267639.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7a874c4dCR4aDA

Edited September 13, 2020 by Polarizing

[Crossy]

3 hours ago, Polarizing said:

this dimmable driver has 4 slots on the dc side compared to my led strip which was connected via 2 wires, what is the best way to convert a two wire led strip to a 4 wire one?I currently have philips 6w led strips

 

edit: or should i just buy 6 holed wago's and  make it 4 in 2 out? If i correctly understand how the dim driver works, this should work right? 

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/10000036267639.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.7a874c4dCR4aDA

 

That driver does NOT work with a conventional mains dimmer!

 

It is expecting a 0-10V DC dimming signal at the "DIM 0-10V" terminals.

[maxpower]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

That driver does NOT work with a conventional mains dimmer!

 

It is expecting a 0-10V DC dimming signal at the "DIM 0-10V" terminals.

I thought the same until I noticed Triac & 0-10V in the description. The confusing manufacturers website reveals 65-265V AC input 12V DC output.

 

Chinese trickery. Its possible to take a varying AC supply voltage convert it to a constant DC voltage for a LED strip then vary the modulation of this fixed voltage based on the AC input voltage. The circuit could easily adapt itself to a constant input voltage with 0-10 dimming input.

 

The result is a hybrid dimmer which attempts to get over the nightmare problems people have using triac dimmers with LED drivers.

 

Not my idea of the best solution but it could simplify an installation.

[Polarizing]

15 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Not my idea of the best solution but it could simplify an installation.

So confused now, what should I do? the Dim0-10v is an input???!?!

[maxpower]

3 hours ago, Polarizing said:

So confused now, what should I do? the Dim0-10v is an input???!?!

[Polarizing]

fixed, first i had the wires from the dc side in the wrong socket, then i had them reversed in the right socket. Took my multimeter out to see whats up and corrected the wiring! Thanks

[Crossy]

5 hours ago, Polarizing said:

fixed, first i had the wires from the dc side in the wrong socket, then i had them reversed in the right socket. Took my multimeter out to see whats up and corrected the wiring! Thanks

 

Does it work correctly with the mains dimmer?

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, maxpower said:

I thought the same until I noticed Triac & 0-10V in the description.

 

If it works well definitely one to keep in the list of handy black boxes.

[Polarizing]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Does it work correctly with the mains dimmer?

yes, it seems very stable and no flickering whatsoever. However, now I get sleepness nights about my led downlights, why arent those that stable? Cant I use a triac adaptor for them as wel to solve the ocassional flickering?

the downlights i curent use are these:

https://th.aliexpress.com/item/32919221101.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.14661a7fax2QLM&algo_pvid=7803f890-0d96-4b36-9e22-70679ee20f08&algo_expid=7803f890-0d96-4b36-9e22-70679ee20f08-5&btsid=0ab6f82115966995950477289e2d18&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

or is this a whole different technology?

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Polarizing said:

yes, it seems very stable and no flickering whatsoever. However, now I get sleepness nights about my led downlights, why arent those that stable? Cant I use a triac adaptor for them as wel to solve the ocassional flickering?

the downlights i curent use are these:

https://th.aliexpress.com/item/32919221101.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.14661a7fax2QLM&algo_pvid=7803f890-0d96-4b36-9e22-70679ee20f08&algo_expid=7803f890-0d96-4b36-9e22-70679ee20f08-5&btsid=0ab6f82115966995950477289e2d18&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

or is this a whole different technology?

 

What voltage/current are the downlights themselves? You may be able to find a suitable box with the same technology.

[Crossy]

This unit looks very promising https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000215756132.html 

 

Model TE-25A looks the ticket from your existing driver data.

[Polarizing]

https://th.aliexpress.com/item/32935106621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dAlPfOL

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

What voltage/current are the downlights themselves? You may be able to find a suitable box with the same technology.

Currently using the 7W version

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Polarizing said:

https://th.aliexpress.com/item/32935106621.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dAlPfOL

Currently using the 7W version

 

The TE-10A from my link should do the trick then, replace the existing drivers.

 

You may be able to save a bit of $$$ by putting the downlights themselves in series groups and using one of the bigger dimmers from the TE range.

 

A TE-15 should be able to run two of your 7W down lights in series.

 

[Polarizing]

17 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

The TE-10A from my link should do the trick then, replace the existing drivers.

Some thoughts and observations:
- the current dim adaptor for the spotlight is rated as output 18-23v, does that mean they require 24v output transformers?
there is no information on the spotlight itself 
- so the triac adaptor I bought for my led strip is 12v, shall I try to connect it with the 24v spotlight to see how it behaves? Or will it explode immediately? Or are the observations made not conclusive of how it will behave with the TE10A?
- triac aliexpress adaptors are way better in providing a constant current than the "idontknowhowtocall" aliexpress adaptors that come with the spotlight itself? What is the technology behind it?
 

[Crossy]

OK, let's clear up some misconceptions.

 

LED devices (the bit that makes the light) are current rather than voltage driven. That means that you supply a regulated current and the voltage is whatever the LED wants, it's the opposite way round to how we normally think (supply a voltage and the device determines the current).

 

Your LED strips have the current source built in (actually it's just a resistor in series with each of the LED devices) so you supply them with a constant voltage, the resistor limits the current. It's not very efficient, but at the the power levels these devices run at it's fine.

 

At 7W you would be wasting an awful lot of power in the resistor so we get out the electronics. Looking at some similar 7W COB devices they are about 350mA and have a voltage of about 22V (varies with device temperature).

 

Putting a 24V source across the LED without any current limit will send the LED into orbit.

Hooking your 12V driver to the 7W LED probably won't light it at all.

 

These clever (expensive) drivers look at the supply waveform (from your mains dimmer) and determine what the dimming level should be and then convert that into a PWM regulated supply for the LED. They are sufficiently clever that the actual dimmer could be leading or trailing edge it still works.

 

The drivers that came with the downlighters should do the same thing, but evidently the technology is less clever (cheaper), you may still be able to find a mains dimmer that they are happy with. It's also possible that the dimmer doesn't like the LED load, did you try adding a conventional lamp to the circuit?

 

[Polarizing]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

did you try adding a conventional lamp to the circuit?

I dont have a conventional lamp at my disposal and don't really see it as a solution, more like a work around. 

Is it possible to connect the spotlights in parallel instead of in series with a higher capacity transformer? or is the only parallel option; seperate transformers?
the spotlights are spread in a 10m2 surface.

 

edit: so if I want to test it, whats the cheapest way to do it? buy a TE10?

Edited September 14, 2020 by Polarizing

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, Polarizing said:

I dont have a conventional lamp at my disposal and don't really see it as a solution, more like a work around. 

Is it possible to connect the spotlights in parallel instead of in series with a higher capacity transformer? or is the only parallel option; seperate transformers?
the spotlights are spread in a 10m2 surface.

 

The use of a conventional lamp wasn't intended to be a solution, more a diagnostic tool (is the flickering caused by the dimmer or the LED driver?).

 

You could put the units in parallel with a current of 700mA (350mA for each branch) and it would work, but what happens if one of them fails open? What happens is that all 700mA will flow through the remaining lamp resulting in it too failing.

 

As noted earlier LEDs work differently to what we are used to, series is the safe (for the LEDs) connection.

 

[Polarizing]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

The use of a conventional lamp wasn't intended to be a solution, more a diagnostic tool (is the flickering caused by the dimmer or the LED driver?).

interesting, any idea whats the cheapest dimmable conventional lamp? Honestly, I even know less about conventional lamps, I can probably borrow the e27 fitting from the bathroom.

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

interesting, any idea whats the cheapest dimmable conventional lamp? Honestly, I even know less about conventional lamps, I can probably borrow the e27 fitting from the bathroom.

 

All conventional (incandescent) lamps are dimmable.

 

A simple 40W tungsten lamp from your local hardware store would do the trick, 30 Baht or so (I've not bought one for ages).

[Polarizing]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

All conventional (incandescent) lamps are dimmable.

A simple 40W tungsten lamp from your local hardware store would do the trick, 30 Baht or so (I've not bought one for ages).

Thanks, I will keep it in mind. However, my dimmer is homekit compatible and the most expensive of the circuit, so i prefer a solution where I keep the dimmer in the setup

Is there are led triac dim driver that can let me drive all 6 7W downlights? And in another room, there are 4 of those, I can just use the TE-36A right? I can't seem to find the same drivers as you showed me that is capable of 6x 7W. What are your keywords?

[Crossy]

37 minutes ago, Polarizing said:

Thanks, I will keep it in mind. However, my dimmer is homekit compatible and the most expensive of the circuit, so i prefer a solution where I keep the dimmer in the setup

Is there are led triac dim driver that can let me drive all 6 7W downlights? And in another room, there are 4 of those, I can just use the TE-36A right? I can't seem to find the same drivers as you showed me that is capable of 6x 7W. What are your keywords?

 

Nobody said anything about removing your dimmer, using the lamp is a route to determining if it's the dimmer or the driver misbehaving. If you are confident that the dimmer is behaving we can run with that.

 

Is your dimmer leading or trailing edge? Swapping for one of the opposite type could be your solution with the existing drivers.

 

I did not show a driver capable of running 6 x 7W LEDs (or did I, maybe I missed it).

 

Find a triac compatible driver that does 350mA @ 150V (all 6 in series) or one that does 700mA @ 75V (2 x 3 LEDs in series)  or 950mA @ 48V (3 x 2 LEDs in series). The TE-36** will just about do the latter set to 700 or 800mA (experiment), but bear in mind the warning  about parallel strings.

 

** It's 36W max so it won't drive your 6X7W (42W) downlighters to maximum power (would extend the life of the units considerably).

[Polarizing]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Is your dimmer leading or trailing edge?

No idea, it's a koogeek dimmer, couldn't find which edge it is.