Timer switch

[Susco]

Hope someone can help me here.

 

I bought this timer switch to control the floodlights connected to my alarm system.

 

It is a replacement for the switch that was in place, but it looks little different

 

When my home alarm get activated, floodlights go on as well, but not needed during daytime of course.

 

So I set this timer on 18.00 - off 07.00

 

Now I'm confused which of the 3 contacts at the bottom to connect the wires coming from the alarm panel, and which is the correct setting

 

 

 

[RichCor]

NC = Normally Closed (think power off state)

NO = Normally Open   (think timer triggered state)

POWER = External wire IN

 

Does the Alarm System have it's own power circuit to trigger an AC device (the lights)? Is it powered or an isolated relay (power by external source)?

Edited September 17, 2020 by RichCor

[Susco]

 

8 minutes ago, RichCor said:

NC = Normally Closed (think power off state)

NO = Normally Open   (think triggered state_

POWER = External wire IN

I understand the meaning of NC and NO, but it doesn't make me any wiser which contacts to use, and what the correct settings should be.

 

Also, the switch is 220V, as was the previous one. My floodlights are obviously also 220V.

 

I know contact 1 and 2 get the 220V.

 

On the previous switch, 2 tiny wires went from 2 contacts at the bottom to a 12V relays.

 

I would think that if the top is 220V, the bottom contacts also get 220V

Edited September 17, 2020 by Susco

[sometimewoodworker]

If it follows the diagram z

 

1 and 2 are line and neutral permanently connected. Nothing to do with the load just powering the switch

 

3 is line in (to be switched)

4 is switched Normally Open to the load

5 is switched Normally closed to the load

so you need the 2 (3,4) in bold for your lights

 

However I’ve just had to swap out This one. The 3, 4, 5, may get mixed up. But as you only have line in and load out you can swap them round (if you are careful) while the power is on, I just did.

Edited September 17, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[RichCor]

I'd verify with a multimeter, Pins 3, 4, 5 should all be ISOLATED (non powered) from Pins 1, 2 (so no pass through).

 

You'd simply run one leg already powering the lights from the alarm system to pin 3 (Power), Then continue that leg from pin 4 (NO) on to the lights. Your Timer when should interrupt the power to the lights during the time you've set.

[Susco]

4 minutes ago, RichCor said:

I'd verify with a multimeter, Pins 3, 4, 5 should all be ISOLATED (non powered) from Pins 1, 2 (so no pass through).

 

You'd simply run one leg already powering the lights from the alarm system to pin 3 (Power), Then continue that leg from pin 4 (NO) on to the lights. Your Timer when should interrupt the power to the lights during the time you've set.

Both wires at the bottom contacts of the previous switch go to the 12V relays

[RichCor]

2 minutes ago, Susco said:

Both wires at the bottom contacts of the previous switch go to the 12V relays

If something is already in charge of turning the lights ON/OFF, I'd just take the LIVE LEG of the 220vac going to the lights and run it through your new timer. 

 

Otherwise you need to understand the existing circuit (alarm system wired into the 12v relays, whose input or output was also previously 'switched' by the previous timer). I'd guest the old timer was controlling a 12v relay circuit that also itself controlled 220vac contacts.

 

So, what is your Alarm System outputing for triggering the lights ...12v or 220v

If 12v then I assume it's being used to run relays for 220v contacts to power the lights. If this is the case then you can either use the new timer to make/break the 12v going to the old relay, or the 220v LIVE Leg controlled by the 12v relays going to the lights. Two choices ...the new timer can be made to control either one.

[Susco]

1 minute ago, RichCor said:

If something is already in charge of turning the lights ON/OFF, I'd just take the LIVE LEG of the 220vac going to the lights and run it through your new timer. 

 

Otherwise you need to understand the existing circuit (alarm system wired into the 12v relays, whose input or output was also previously 'switched' by the previous timer). I'd guest the old timer was controlling a 12v relay circuit that also itself controlled 220vac contacts.

 

So, what is your Alarm System outputing for triggering the lights ...12v or 220v

If 12v then I assume it's being used to run relays for 220v contacts to power the lights. If this is the case then you can either use the new timer to make/break the 12v going to the old relay, or the 220v LIVE Leg controlled by the 12v relays going to the lights. Two choices ...the new timer can be made to control either one.

The alarm system puts out 12 V to trigger the lights.

 

From the 12v relay wires go to a 220V contactor.

 

The wires that feed the switch are controlled by a breaker which is labelled floodlights

[RichCor]

Given that you'd stated that the lights are 220v (not 12v) then we have to assume:

 

The alarm system is powering via 12v the external relay circuit

The external relay circuit LOAD section is controlling a 220v load from a breaker, the output going to an external TIMER Power input, and Pin 'NO' direct to the lights.

 

You and I are thinking the same, the TIMER is just being replaced, just need to put those two wires from the 12 external relay circuit in the correct pin holes. (It shouldn't matter if it's 12v or 220v, the timer switch works the same for either one).

 

1 hour ago, Susco said:

It is a replacement for the switch that was in place, but it looks little different

Different in what way?

[Susco]

13 minutes ago, RichCor said:

Given that you'd stated that the lights are 220v (not 12v) then we have to assume:

 

The alarm system is powering via 12v the external relay circuit

The external relay circuit LOAD section is controlling a 220v load from a breaker, the output going to an external TIMER Power input, and Pin 'NO' direct to the lights.

 

You and I are thinking the same, the TIMER is just being replaced, just need to put those two wires from the 12 external relay circuit in the correct pin holes. (It shouldn't matter if it's 12v or 220v, the timer switch works the same for either one).

 

Different in what way?

This is the previous switch, and the wires were connected to 4 & 5.

 

When I connect the new switch to 4 & 5  the lights don't work, even if I set the switch to on

 

[RichCor]

If you follow the silk-screen diagram of the two timer relay switched pins

 

  

 

The "Old" timer is

4 = Powered Common  ->  220v L Input from 12v relay controlled circuit

3 = Normally Closed

5 = Normally Open       ->  220v L Throughput when timer activated

 

The "New" timer is

3 = Powered Common  -> 220v L Input from 12v relay controlled circuit

5 = Normally Closed

4 = Normally Open        -> 220v L Throughput when timer activated

 

*if the "New" timer completed wired circuit works opposite to what you want, move the 220v L Throughput when timer activated from pin 4 to pin 5.  

[Susco]

17 minutes ago, RichCor said:

If you follow the silk-screen diagram of the two timer relay switched pins

 

  

 

The "Old" timer is

4 = Powered Common  ->  220v L Input from 12v relay controlled circuit

3 = Normally Closed

5 = Normally Open       ->  220v L Throughput when timer activated

 

The "New" timer is

3 = Powered Common  -> 220v L Input from 12v relay controlled circuit

5 = Normally Closed

4 = Normally Open        -> 220v L Throughput when timer activated

 

*if the "New" timer completed wired circuit works opposite to what you want, move the 220v L Throughput when timer activated from pin 4 to pin 5.  

 

Thanks we get there.

 

I had the input connected to 4 and the throughput to 3 and the lights worked when I activated the alarm this evening.

 

Does it matter if I switch 3 and 4?

 

I assume input is the wire that goes to the relay, and throughput the wire that comes from the alarm pane. Correct?

Edited September 17, 2020 by Susco

[RichCor]

12 minutes ago, Susco said:

Does it matter if I switch 3 and 4?

 

I assume input is the wire that goes to the relay, and throughput the wire that comes from the alarm pane. Correct?

As I mentioned previously, the Timer is being used as an ON/OFF switch and can switch either the 12v or 220v loads. If one of the wires comes direct from the alarm system, and the alarm only provides 12v power, then the timer as wired is being used to switch the 12v to the external 12v relay circuit (that in turn controls the 220v power to the lights).

 

As the timer is a replacement for an ON/OFF switch, wire polarity doesn't really matter, so long as one of them is attached to the common power pin 5 and the other to either pin 3 or pin 4 (as the timer controls the ON/OFF or OFF/ON state at those pins). 

 

Glad to read you got it running. 

[Susco]

1 hour ago, RichCor said:

Glad to read you got it running. 

Here's another one for you.

 

Ordered from lazada and arrived today. It is supposed to be used for my 15V perimeter lights.

 

I ordered the 220V version, but it looks as if they send me the 12V version.

 

Only thing I don't understand is how it can have 12V input but 220V output.

 

To be clear, the timer sits between the 220V feed and the 15V transformer

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Susco

[RichCor]

38 minutes ago, Susco said:

Only thing I don't understand is how it can have 12V input but 220V output.

Think of it as an electric see-saw. When a child sits on the board one end goes down while the other goes up. The child stand up, the board moves in the opposite position.

 

Now, replace the child with a spring and wire-wound magnet. When de-energized the spring pulls the board down (and the other end of the see-saw board goes up), but when the wire-wound magnet i energized and can overcome the pull of the spring the board pulls up (and the other end of the see-saw board goes down). This side of the electro-magnetic relay can be whatever volts is necessary to control the mechanism.

 

The OTHER side of the see-saw can now be used as an isolated SWITCH because something can make it go up or down. If metal contacts are place on this other end of the see-saw it can be made to MAKE a contact when in the extreme DOWN position or contact when in the extreme UP position.

 

So, one end of the see-saw controls what happens on the other end ...but the two ends are ISOLATED. A 5v or 12v power supply can make movement on one end, and *whatever* voltage can effectively be switched ON/OFF or OFF/ON at the other end --the only real limit of what voltage (and amperage) can be effectively 'switched' is the design of the of the spring/wire-wound magnet on one end of the see-saw and the contact pads making/breaking electrical contacts on the other.

 

See: https://electrosome.com/electromagnetic-relay/

Edited September 17, 2020 by RichCor

[Susco]

So in short, can this be used for my application, or did i indeed receive the wrong item? ????

[RichCor]

41 minutes ago, Susco said:

the timer sits between the 220V feed and the 15V transformer

 

2 minutes ago, Susco said:

So in short, can this be used for my application, or did i indeed receive the wrong item? ????

 

The timer you received requires a constant 12vdc power supply to run it. I'd say NO

 

You really want a 220vac INPUT (control side) so you can have it plugged into the mains electrical.

The OUTPUT (load side) can be 200-250v to be the 'switch' controlling the power going into your lighting system. 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, Susco said:

I ordered the 220V version, but it looks as if they send me the 12V version.

The sent the version that needs a 12v power supply to function.

7 hours ago, Susco said:

Only thing I don't understand is how it can have 12V input but 220V output.

It doesn’t have a 12v input (1) and (2): You can only use 12v DC

 

have nothing to do with (4) and (5): you can switch any AC voltage up to 250v and a maximum 16A

 

the words input and output are used incorrectly, or with a different meaning to the common one. 

 

it has been explained in more detail by @RichCor

Quote

So in short, can this be used for my application, or did i indeed receive the wrong item? 

 

probably the wrong item. It depends on whether you have a 12v supply, if you don’t, yes it’s wrong.

 

I have had a similar mistake made with a contactor.

Edited September 18, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[Susco]

11 hours ago, RichCor said:

Glad to read you got it running. 

I have news, in that I didn't get it working.

 

I have tried all combinations, the light either go on all the time, or they never go on, but I can't get it to work that they only go on during the set time.

 

Any suggestions anyone?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

35 minutes ago, Susco said:

I have news, in that I didn't get it working.

 

I have tried all combinations, the light either go on all the time, or they never go on, but I can't get it to work that they only go on during the set time.

 

Any suggestions anyone?

 

A)Do you have power permanently to 1 & 2?

 

B)will the red indicator light come on when using the manual setting to on? 
C)will the red indicator light turn off when using the manual setting to off? 

assuming that the answers are yes, yes, and yes

 

if any answer is no there is a fault

 

as I mentioned the 3, 4, & 5 can get mixed

 

with a live line feed and a test lamp (I’m assuming you know how to setup a test lamp) connect line and neutral  to 1 & 2

 

with the indicator light off test

 

line to 3 test lamp to 4 then 5

line to 4 test lamp to 5

 

if the test lamp doesn’t light or lights on every connection there is a fault

 

with the indicator light on test

 

line to 3 test lamp to 4 then 5

line to 4 test lamp to 5

 

if the test lamp doesn’t light or lights on every connection there is a fault

 

and if the same terminals light up the test lamp as when the indicator is off there is a fault

once you know if the manual function works then try the automatic 

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[Susco]

12 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

A)Do you have power permanently to 1 & 2?

 

B)will the red indicator light come on when using the manual setting to on? 
C)will the red indicator light turn off when using the manual setting to off? 

I have permanent power to 1&2

 

There is a setting on and on/auto. In both case the red light is on

 

There is a setting off and auto / off. In both cases red light is off

 

I have no idea how to test with a test light. It is connected to the alarm, and I activate the alarm each time.

 

The alarm panel is at the other side of the house to where the switch is.

 

Ready to engage a heavy hammer now

Edited September 18, 2020 by Susco

[bankruatsteve]

Is the timer on battery?  It looks similar to mine so I think so.  If you have permanent power to the timer, then how will the alarm control it?  Seems like your power should be coming from the alarm.  Then, after you set the on/off time (daily) make sure it is displaying "Auto" and the current time.  The red light comes on when the L is switched on to the load - which it will do when the start time is equal or less than the current time. 

[Susco]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Is the timer on battery?  It looks similar to mine so I think so.  If you have permanent power to the timer, then how will the alarm control it?  Seems like your power should be coming from the alarm.  Then, after you set the on/off time (daily) make sure it is displaying "Auto" and the current time.  The red light comes on when the L is switched on to the load - which it will do when the start time is equal or less than the current time. 

How would a timer work without permanent power to 1 & 2 ?

 

I can not set to auto, I can only set to on-auto or auto - off, as explained in my previous post

[bankruatsteve]

1 minute ago, Susco said:

How would a timer work without permanent power to 1 & 2 ?

 

I can not set to auto, I can only set to on-auto or auto - off, as explained in my previous post

The timer works from the battery.  Again, I'm just comparing to mine - maybe not the same at all.

If the timer (switch) is on permanent power then what does the alarm have to do with anything?

My guess would be to set it to "on-auto" then.  Should come on when the current time reaches the start time that you set and should turn off when the current time reaches the set off-time.

[Susco]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

The timer works from the battery.  Again, I'm just comparing to mine - maybe not the same at all.

If the timer (switch) is on permanent power then what does the alarm have to do with anything?

My guess would be to set it to "on-auto" then.  Should come on when the current time reaches the start time that you set and should turn off when the current time reaches the set off-time.

There is no battery involved

[Susco]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

If the timer (switch) is on permanent power then what does the alarm have to do with anything?

My guess would be to set it to "on-auto" then.  Should come on when the current time reaches the start time that you set and should turn off when the current time reaches the set off-time.

When set to on-auto the flood lights go on 24/7.

 

That is what my posts are about

[bankruatsteve]

6 minutes ago, Susco said:

When set to on-auto the flood lights go on 24/7.

 

That is what my posts are about

If you disconnect L from input, does the display go off?  If not, then you have battery.  There should be "Timer" button to set/display the timer programs.  Yes?  Press until you see on time then off time or change if not what you want.  Then press the clock button.  Should show current time.  The instructions you posted say the "Manual" button can select "On" or "Off" or "Auto".  Push that until it says "Auto".

 

[Susco]

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

If you disconnect L from input, does the display go off?  If not, then you have battery.

 

of course there is a backup battery in the timer, that is why I had to change the timer, because the BACK UP battery from the old one was broken.

 

How would the battery remain charged if there is no power to 1&2?

[Susco]

This is my last post on this subject, as I'm losing my temper, and when that happens I may burn down the place.

 

 

I'm working now with the old timer, which has only on-auto and auto-off setting, no auto.

 

In the control box there is a wire that goes to the 12V relay.

 

I have connected that wire to 4.

 

There is a telephone cable with 2 wires ( brown and green ) that go to the alarm I ASSUME because the idiot installer didn't leave a diagram.

 

I have checked at the alarm panel and can't locate the wires.

 

If I connect green wire to 5 flood lights go on 24/7 when set on-auto. When set to auto-off, they never go on

 

If I connect brown wire to 5 the lighs never go on, whatever setting I use

 

 

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

40 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

How would the battery remain charged if there is no power to 1&2?

It wouldn't.  But, these batteries will last a long time without charge.  Unfortunately, they are not replaceable though - at least mine isn't.  The point is, the timer works off the battery - not input power.  Sounds like you need to re-check the timer program - make sure set up as you want.  When set to "Auto" the L should only switch to the load during the set on time.

 

Edit:  I'm not clear how you have things hooked up, but I think you have 220v L/N coming from the alarm to the timer and that it is only active when the alarm goes on. (?)  You can still set the timer to be on say from 6pm to 6am and off during the day.  The timer will still switch whether there is input power or not (maybe not).  If the alarm never goes on, then the lights will never go on.  If the display starts to fade or go blank, then you would need to hook up a "permanent" source to the input until the battery re-charges.

Edited September 18, 2020 by bankruatsteve