World becoming less tolerant of migrants - Gallup poll

[Nout]

23 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

All this survery really says is this :

 

If it's on your doorstep then it's going to <deleted> you off.

 

Lets send 1 million migrants to both Canada and NZ in a short space of time and see if their attitudes change

 

 

Send them to Saudi and Kuwait.

[Chelseafan]

7 minutes ago, Nout said:

Send them to Saudi and Kuwait.

 

Amazing how little the middle eastern countries assist their own.

 

 

[Opl]

not without reasons, just for this summer, non-exhaustive list: 

 

- july 26, France 

  "French police arrested a 39-year-old refugee from Rwanda for setting a famed cathedral in the French city of Nantes on fire. The prosecutor charged him with arson and recommended placing the man in custody after the man confessed to the crime."

https://rmx.news/article/article/france-rwandan-migrant-confesses-to-setting-nantes-cathedral-on-fire

 

- september 12: Switzerland

  "Murder suspect acted ‘out of vengeance against the Swiss state’ The 26-year-old Turkish-Swiss dual national had been known to the Federal Intelligence Service (FIS) since 2017 “for the consumption and dissemination of jihadist propaganda”.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/murder-suspect-acted--out-of-vengeance-against-the-swiss-state-/46040334

 

- september 15 : Italy

  "Priest who helped migrants and the homeless killed in Como, Italy. "I was afraid of being repatriated". This is how the 53-year-old of Tunisian nationality replied who in Como, at 7 this morning, stabbed and killed Don Roberto Malgesini."

 https://www.unionesarda.it/en/articolo/news/italia/2020/09/15/prete-ucciso-a-como-il-killer-confessa-temevo-il-rimpatrio-137-1059642.html

  " Tunisians are now the most common nationality of illegal immigrants arriving in Italy and constitute over one-third of the 5,966 who made it to Italian shores in 2020."

https://www.cfnews.org.uk/italy-muslim-migrant-kills-pro-migrant-priest/  

 

 

 

 

 

- 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Opl

[Nout]

7 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

 

Amazing how little the middle eastern countries assist their own.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

 

Amazing how little the middle eastern countries assist their own.

 

 

Such countries were based on immigration but citizenship is not offered, nor is permanent residence guaranteed nor is marrying a local women. We have a lot to learn from the Arabs. Their system works for them and we should adopt it. Decades ago senior Arab diplomats have seen the ruination of British and American cities urgently laid down legislation to prevent the cultural destruction of Arab values via immigration. Parts of Britain are now unlivable due to crime ridden ghettos of entitled aliens who have no intention of integrating and who resent their host country.

[Nout]

3 minutes ago, Opl said:

not without reasons, just for this summer 

 

- july 26, France 

  "French police arrested a 39-year-old refugee from Rwanda for setting a famed cathedral in the French city of Nantes on fire. The prosecutor charged him with arson and recommended placing the man in custody after the man confessed to the crime."

https://rmx.news/article/article/france-rwandan-migrant-confesses-to-setting-nantes-cathedral-on-fire

 

- september 12: Switzerland

  "Murder suspect acted ‘out of vengeance against the Swiss state’ The 26-year-old Turkish-Swiss dual national had been known to the Federal Intelligence Service (FIS) since 2017 “for the consumption and dissemination of jihadist propaganda”.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/murder-suspect-acted--out-of-vengeance-against-the-swiss-state-/46040334

 

- september 15 : Italy

  "Priest who helped migrants and the homeless killed in Como, Italy. "I was afraid of being repatriated". This is how the 53-year-old of Tunisian nationality replied who in Como, at 7 this morning, stabbed and killed Don Roberto Malgesini."

 https://www.unionesarda.it/en/articolo/news/italia/2020/09/15/prete-ucciso-a-como-il-killer-confessa-temevo-il-rimpatrio-137-1059642.html

  " Tunisians are now the most common nationality of illegal immigrants arriving in Italy and constitute over one-third of the 5,966 who made it to Italian shores in 2020."

https://www.cfnews.org.uk/italy-muslim-migrant-kills-pro-migrant-priest/  

 

 

 

 

 

- 

The news the MSM don't discuss.

[Tug]

13 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Absolutely. It's easy to be gracious and socially minded when it's someone else's problem. Canada and NZ are well protected by seas and Canada's only land border with the US. So now mass arrivals of undocumented aggressive young men, demanding everything for nothing, turning up. 

 

Wonder how they'd think if that wasn't the case and they had to deal with thousands of illegal immigrants rather than the controlled immigration they enjoy,

Geessee I don’t know about that I have 4 properties within 20 miles of our southern border I’ve known many Mexicans over the years and found them to be hard working family orentated and for the most part religious just the kind of folks that make a country great how many Mexicans have you known?unfourtunally I think with global warming over population resources becoming more and more scarce it’s going to get worse much much worse

[GinBoy2]

I've been thinking some more about this, and the more I think about it the more complicated it becomes.

 

I'll start with the Americas, which I know.

 

Obviously the US has an issue with illegal immigration over the Southern border. But that in itself is a not a one size fits all.

 

Economic migrants, if they make it just blend into American Hispanic society. Take a look at the dreamer population? With some of them, as an American Hispanic, I speak better Spanish!

 

But then you get to the ones fleeing Central America and the violence. They, in my mind at least, are different. They deserve protection.

 

Now this might sound a little controversial, but ultimately regardless of language we do share a common culture, which makes integration into the US melting pot easier.

 

Thats where the really tricky stuff kicks in.

 

The European experiment, if you want to call it that, of allowing millions of people, justifiably fleeing violence, thats much harder.

 

These are people with a totally different culture, religion, value set, and the idea that they can be absorbed in a matter of a few months is to me fanciful.

 

Now I know comparisons between the US and Europe are hard. But in general immigrants to the US have, tried to aspire to be Americans, not withstanding the various episodes of, anti Irish, German, Italian, you name it problems. But likeI mentioned before, the Dreamer generation are fully integrated 'migrants'

 

I'm not so sure that is true in Europe, and other Europeans, and Brits (if they still call themselves European) please chime in

Edited September 25, 2020 by GinBoy2

[Opl]

12 hours ago, Credo said:

Just a year or so ago, it was Germany that was the 'poster child' seems they've made a lot of progress.  Now you need a new poster child.   That sounds like an anti-immigrant agenda.

 

"Outcry in France after woman says beaten for wearing skirt. President Emmanuel Macron's centrist government has in recent weeks begun using increasingly tough rhetoric on domestic security issues in what analysts see as a shift to the right.Ministers have particularly lashed out at Islamist extremism, arguing such values have no place in French society."

https://headtopics.com/pk/7911711699114125520-15840826

"On Thursday a man was handed a two-month suspended jail sentence in another case, for assaulting two women – one of whose outfit he claimed was too short."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/french-police-investigate-attack-on-woman-22-for-wearing-skirt

[bert bloggs]

12 minutes ago, Opl said:

"Outcry in France after woman says beaten for wearing skirt. President Emmanuel Macron's centrist government has in recent weeks begun using increasingly tough rhetoric on domestic security issues in what analysts see as a shift to the right.Ministers have particularly lashed out at Islamist extremism, arguing such values have no place in French society."

https://headtopics.com/pk/7911711699114125520-15840826

"On Thursday a man was handed a two-month suspended jail sentence in another case, for assaulting two women – one of whose outfit he claimed was too short."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/french-police-investigate-attack-on-woman-22-for-wearing-skirt

Just read that in the Daily Mail ,the one thing that jumps out at you is that no description of the men is ever mentioned ,wonder why? 

[simple1]

2 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Just read that in the Daily Mail ,the one thing that jumps out at you is that no description of the men is ever mentioned ,wonder why? 

The French state’s policy rejects any references to national, racial, ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities. 

[lapamita]

On 9/23/2020 at 4:16 PM, ThailandRyan said:

Oh my Covid NO!, it can not be true, tell me its a fake poll done on a Pole or by hitting people with a pole.

 

The United States ranked sixth in the index just behind Sierra Leone. Ray said Trump supporters were far more accepting of migrants than the global average, scoring 7.10.

if you know the world than you would know that most country by  far more  racist lije the US

even thailand 

nobody can say us or eu is racist,most open society in the world

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by lapamita

[RocketDog]

16 hours ago, Credo said:

Well, I don't really like to put myself in a box of pro or anti anything.   If I were to do so, it would be pro-immigration.   Countries have the right to set limits on the number of immigrants they will admit and the categories under which they will admit them.   

 

People who are fleeing persecution should be given a fair hearing of their asylum claim.  I expect those hearing to err on the side of caution.   Those who do not meet the criteria should be repatriated as soon as possible and in the most humane way possible.   Repatriations should be done as absolutely soon as possible.  Migrants should not be allowed to linger in limbo for extensive periods of time.   There will always be situations that require humanitarian considerations.   Some people, for a variety of reasons can't be returned to their home country.   Sometimes the home countries denies that they are from there.   Children who arrive without family shouldn't be returned unless a relative or close family member can be found to care for them.   

Allowing people to live in a country without some sort of legal status, whether temporary, long-term or permanent is neither good for them or the host country.   

 

Sound reasoning for the most part. Note however that all your recommendations place a burden of refugee management, repatriation, investigation of credentials, temporary housing, and Healthcare, etc. squarely on the taxpayers of the host country. The more applicants the higher the cost. So for the sake of argument if a country considered the cases of 100,000 applicants but finally accepted none of them there would still be a considerable bill to pay. Every applicant accepted puts a further burden on the host. 

 

But let's not lose sight of the fact that we are discussing immigration and not migration but you use the terms synonymously. Immigrants want to enter a new country for a reason and often have skills or funds to offer. Migrants/refugees just want to leave their own country and go anywhere else, most often with nothing to offer the host country but hungry mouths. When thousands or tens of thousands suddenly arrive at the borders en mass there is simply no system in place to handle that. Criteria can be established for immigration and that's how it currently works. Gobs of desperate people climbing border fences is not immigration, it's an invitation to violence and bloodshed. 

 

In the end being charitable to too many refugees degrades the life of the citizens and taxpayers of the host country. Generally these citizens have full responsibility to pay the bills but little input into the acceptance process devised by their government. That is truly the crux of the problem. 

 

We will see this problem play out regularly in the coming decades as climate change, starvation, thirst, and war make more of the globe uninhabitable. This virus is just a preview. 

 

I predict that many countries will simply close their borders entirely and the more generous countries will be flooded with refugees until their citizenry revolts. Each sovereign nation can choose to manage the problem or be managed by the problem. Life is not fair and nature not kind. It's the classic lifeboat conundrum in game theory. 

[plentyofnuttin]

On 9/24/2020 at 12:38 AM, Chelseafan said:

All this survery really says is this :

 

If it's on your doorstep then it's going to <deleted> you off.

 

Lets send 1 million migrants to both Canada and NZ in a short space of time and see if their attitudes change

 

 

So how do you reconcile that conclusion with the USA's high ranking in tolerance?

[Opl]

7 hours ago, simple1 said:

The French state’s policy rejects any references to national, racial, ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities. 

sometimes it's easy,

today is friday, 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-stabbing-attack-reported-near-former-charlie-hebdo-office-today-2020-09-25/

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/25/paris-knife-attack-terror-probe-421637

one of the 2 suspects is described in french press as looking like  "indo pakistani" - to be confirmed

Edited September 25, 2020 by Opl

[plentyofnuttin]

19 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

 

Amazing how little the middle eastern countries assist their own.

 

 

Lebanon remains the country hosting the largest number of refugees per capita, with Government estimate of 1.5 billion Syrian refugees, some 20,000 refugees of other origins, in addition to the Palestine refugees under UNRWA's mandate.

https://reporting.unhcr.org/lebanon#:~:text=Lebanon remains the country hosting,Palestine refugees under UNRWA's mandate.

 Iraq – As of December 2019, Iraq hosts 245,810 Syrian refugees, primarily in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, and 1.4 million internally displaced Iraqis.^[141] As of September 2019, Turkey hosts 3.66 million registered Syrian refugees, compared to 2.73 million in September 2016.^[3]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War#:~:text=Turkey – As of September 2019,provided over %248%2C000%2C000%2C000 in aid.

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.

 

[Chelseafan]

3 hours ago, plentyofnuttin said:

Lebanon remains the country hosting the largest number of refugees per capita, with Government estimate of 1.5 billion Syrian refugees, some 20,000 refugees of other origins, in addition to the Palestine refugees under UNRWA's mandate.

https://reporting.unhcr.org/lebanon#:~:text=Lebanon remains the country hosting,Palestine refugees under UNRWA's mandate.

 Iraq – As of December 2019, Iraq hosts 245,810 Syrian refugees, primarily in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, and 1.4 million internally displaced Iraqis.^[141] As of September 2019, Turkey hosts 3.66 million registered Syrian refugees, compared to 2.73 million in September 2016.^[3]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War#:~:text=Turkey – As of September 2019,provided over %248%2C000%2C000%2C000 in aid.

 

 

 

1.5 billion ? Are you sure ? Thats about a fifth of the worlds population....

 

What about UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bahrain....

 

 

 

[Chelseafan]

7 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Sound reasoning for the most part. Note however that all your recommendations place a burden of refugee management, repatriation, investigation of credentials, temporary housing, and Healthcare, etc. squarely on the taxpayers of the host country. The more applicants the higher the cost. So for the sake of argument if a country considered the cases of 100,000 applicants but finally accepted none of them there would still be a considerable bill to pay. Every applicant accepted puts a further burden on the host. 

 

But let's not lose sight of the fact that we are discussing immigration and not migration but you use the terms synonymously. Immigrants want to enter a new country for a reason and often have skills or funds to offer. Migrants/refugees just want to leave their own country and go anywhere else, most often with nothing to offer the host country but hungry mouths. When thousands or tens of thousands suddenly arrive at the borders en mass there is simply no system in place to handle that. Criteria can be established for immigration and that's how it currently works. Gobs of desperate people climbing border fences is not immigration, it's an invitation to violence and bloodshed. 

 

In the end being charitable to too many refugees degrades the life of the citizens and taxpayers of the host country. Generally these citizens have full responsibility to pay the bills but little input into the acceptance process devised by their government. That is truly the crux of the problem. 

 

We will see this problem play out regularly in the coming decades as climate change, starvation, thirst, and war make more of the globe uninhabitable. This virus is just a preview. 

 

I predict that many countries will simply close their borders entirely and the more generous countries will be flooded with refugees until their citizenry revolts. Each sovereign nation can choose to manage the problem or be managed by the problem. Life is not fair and nature not kind. It's the classic lifeboat conundrum in game theory. 

 

Agreed and in the case of Syria, ONE MAN has caused this. ONE MAN!!

 

 

[Chelseafan]

4 hours ago, plentyofnuttin said:

So how do you reconcile that conclusion with the USA's high ranking in tolerance?

 

I would question who was asked, what questions were asked, how the questions were asked, the validity of the poll, the sample size and a host of other factors.

 

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, plentyofnuttin said:

Lebanon remains the country hosting the largest number of refugees per capita, with Government estimate of 1.5 billion Syrian refugees, some 20,000 refugees of other origins, in addition to the Palestine refugees under UNRWA's mandate.

https://reporting.unhcr.org/lebanon#:~:text=Lebanon remains the country hosting,Palestine refugees under UNRWA's mandate.

 Iraq – As of December 2019, Iraq hosts 245,810 Syrian refugees, primarily in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, and 1.4 million internally displaced Iraqis.^[141] As of September 2019, Turkey hosts 3.66 million registered Syrian refugees, compared to 2.73 million in September 2016.^[3]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War#:~:text=Turkey – As of September 2019,provided over %248%2C000%2C000%2C000 in aid.

 

 

1.5 billion Syrian refugees? That's more than the population of China  - quite an achievement given the Syrian population is 16.9 million ????

[Credo]

7 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Sound reasoning for the most part. Note however that all your recommendations place a burden of refugee management, repatriation, investigation of credentials, temporary housing, and Healthcare, etc. squarely on the taxpayers of the host country. The more applicants the higher the cost. So for the sake of argument if a country considered the cases of 100,000 applicants but finally accepted none of them there would still be a considerable bill to pay. Every applicant accepted puts a further burden on the host. 

 

But let's not lose sight of the fact that we are discussing immigration and not migration but you use the terms synonymously. Immigrants want to enter a new country for a reason and often have skills or funds to offer. Migrants/refugees just want to leave their own country and go anywhere else, most often with nothing to offer the host country but hungry mouths. When thousands or tens of thousands suddenly arrive at the borders en mass there is simply no system in place to handle that. Criteria can be established for immigration and that's how it currently works. Gobs of desperate people climbing border fences is not immigration, it's an invitation to violence and bloodshed. 

 

In the end being charitable to too many refugees degrades the life of the citizens and taxpayers of the host country. Generally these citizens have full responsibility to pay the bills but little input into the acceptance process devised by their government. That is truly the crux of the problem. 

 

We will see this problem play out regularly in the coming decades as climate change, starvation, thirst, and war make more of the globe uninhabitable. This virus is just a preview. 

 

I predict that many countries will simply close their borders entirely and the more generous countries will be flooded with refugees until their citizenry revolts. Each sovereign nation can choose to manage the problem or be managed by the problem. Life is not fair and nature not kind. It's the classic lifeboat conundrum in game theory. 

First, not all people arrive without resources or family connections.  If people wish to live in a government-sponsored facility, then those are generally available.   If they have a family member with whom they can live, then that is an option, but again, the cost of care depends on how long you are taking to process the cases.  Many gov'ts drag their feet and think the problem will solve itself.   So, they delay the process.   That means longer times in the country and that means increased costs. 

 

Whether they arrive as an asylum seeker, someone already approved as a refugee or as an immigrant with a sponsor, they are all migrants.  Their status may be different, but it is a distinction without a difference.   

 

 

[simple1]

9 hours ago, Opl said:

sometimes it's easy,

today is friday, 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-stabbing-attack-reported-near-former-charlie-hebdo-office-today-2020-09-25/

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/25/paris-knife-attack-terror-probe-421637

one of the 2 suspects is described in french press as looking like  "indo pakistani" - to be confirmed

 

 

But doesn't indicate a change in French government policy does it. One would assume a stabbing attack at the location would be by a violent Islamist, have to see what the police have to say when charges are laid.

[Opl]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

But doesn't indicate a change in French government policy does it. One would assume a stabbing attack at the location would be by a violent Islamist, have to see what the police have to say when charges are laid.

Now we know:

- the main suspect - born in Pakistan in 2002 - arrived in France pretending to be a minor - which was suspected to be untrue, but anyway was under state protection of minors program till august 2020 -  already known by the police -   

- the second suspect is Algerian

Whatever their motivations are, the main issue to public opinion  is where they come from and who they are, such attacks are so repetitive in addition to come on top of other abuses (tax frauds, social welfare, ..) and incivilities, etc, Do we want more of them among us? Is it too late? here's what'on people's mind - at least in France, the most targeted country in Europe when it comes to irregular migration.     

Edited September 26, 2020 by Opl

[simple1]

 

58 minutes ago, Opl said:

Now we know:

- the main suspect - born in Pakistan in 2002 - arrived in France pretending to be a minor - which was suspected to be untrue, but anyway was under state protection of minors program till august 2020 -  already known by the police -   

- the second suspect is Algerian

Whatever their motivations are, the main issue to public opinion is where they come from and who they are, such attacks are so repetitive in addition to come on top of other abuses (tax frauds, social welfare, ..) and incivilities, etc, Do we want more of them among us? Is it too late? here's what'on people's mind - at least in France, the most targeted country in Europe when it comes to irregular migration.     

 

 

France, the most targeted country in Europe when it comes to irregular migration

 

Why is that? I assume because of prior French colonies in Africa and M.E., therefore common language.

 

Whatever their motivations are, the main issue to public opinion  is where they come from and who they are,

 

Are most French Islamist terror attacks originating from those born in France or overseas? Tax and social welfare fraud occur in all Western countries, the majority of offences being committed by the 'indigenous' population. Are there stats from French government documenting the percentage of fraud by ethnic groupings, I assume not given French government policy to minimise generalised vilification, which in your case appears to be unsuccessful.

Edited September 26, 2020 by simple1

[Opl]

5 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Why is that? I assume because of prior French colonies in Africa and M.E., therefore common language.

Not only, geography, France is the las port of embarcation for migrants from Eastern Europe, Indian sub-continent, Asia, S.E Asia, who consider the UK to be their "destiny", France is also the left over destination when they haven't been granted anywhere else..    

Now the fact that former french colonies on the African Continent, after  70 years of independance,  consider France as their suburb, have failed in their development, but still nourrish resentment being unable to make it without smuggli,ng into Europe. If you assume that these people can't learn to speak another language, then you're wrong, you'll find fake asylum seekers from Morocco in Germany,

[Opl]

49 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Are there stats from French government documenting the percentage of fraud by ethnic groupings, I assume not given French government policy to minimise generalised vilification, which in your case appears to be unsuccessful.

according to the data, 16% of Algerian pensioners receiving french retirement pensions and living in Algeria are over 100 y.o, LOL

social security card holders ( that give access to almost free medicin and hospital) exceed the population by 5M, and it's no secret who the "benefiters" are, that's why chain migration is so active.

I could go on and on, and concerning "general vilification" , yes I do have my prejudices that are not challenged by facts - au contraire - reinforced - I just don't put my head in the sand,    

Edited September 26, 2020 by Opl

[simple1]

27 minutes ago, Opl said:

If you assume that these people can't learn to speak another language,

Never made such an assumption. I guess the primary issue in the ex-French colonies would be corruption by the 'elites' and oppression of opposition groups, -plus of course some nasty stuff by France during its rule and handovers. 

 

You may be interested in the following...

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/germany-to-limit-asylum-from-maghreb-countries-/1368619

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccans_in_Germany

 

Good to see you acknowledge you subscribe to general vilification - rare to see such honesty on this forum.. BTW I do not bury my head in the sand, difference being I do not support generalised vilification, for me and as advised by our security forces, it is 'wrong' and unhelpful.

Edited September 26, 2020 by simple1

[RocketDog]

9 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

 

Agreed and in the case of Syria, ONE MAN has caused this. ONE MAN!!

 

 

If people are willing to take the risk of death by migrating across unknown spaces to encounter unknown situations with no guarantee of acceptance they should be willing to take a risk to reclaim their own country instead. 

[RocketDog]

8 hours ago, Credo said:

First, not all people arrive without resources or family connections.  If people wish to live in a government-sponsored facility, then those are generally available.   If they have a family member with whom they can live, then that is an option, but again, the cost of care depends on how long you are taking to process the cases.  Many gov'ts drag their feet and think the problem will solve itself.   So, they delay the process.   That means longer times in the country and that means increased costs. 

 

Whether they arrive as an asylum seeker, someone already approved as a refugee or as an immigrant with a sponsor, they are all migrants.  Their status may be different, but it is a distinction without a difference.   

 

 

Of course some have something to offer. I said 'most' do not without searching for the statistics. Until corrected I'll stand by my statement. 

As you state, care/feeding of these masses is an escalating cost as well as the processing efforts. I'll also hazard a guess that some will have family in the country already who will be unwilling to take them in. 

 

In any event immigration policy should be a choice of the citizens more and by the governments less. It's the citizenry who will pay the price in more ways than one. Female Natives of England afraid to leave their houses without a head scarf? That's not something they are quick to embrace. 

[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

Never made such an assumption. I guess the primary issue in the ex-French colonies would be corruption by the 'elites' and oppression of opposition groups, -plus of course some nasty stuff by France during its rule and handovers. 

 

You may be interested in the following...

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/germany-to-limit-asylum-from-maghreb-countries-/1368619

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccans_in_Germany

 

Good to see you acknowledge you subscribe to general vilification - rare to see such honesty on this forum.. BTW I do not bury my head in the sand, difference being I do not support generalised vilification, for me and as advised by our security forces, it is 'wrong' and unhelpful.

it must be lonely being a voice in the wilderness,