bkkcanuck8 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Poet said: By my definition, a digital nomad is someone who treats his career as a business and focuses on becoming extremely skilled within a particular niche. He may work for clients but his focus is primarily entrepreneurial. Whereas pretty much any English speaker can become a teacher, and the pay reflects that, a digital nomad must be sufficiently skilled at something that people are willing to pay more for, and the amount he earns should increase as those skills improve and his reputation grows. Digital Nomad is both a misnomer and also overused to represent many things to many people (which can mean communication is an issue). A more accurate term for what I consider to be a 'digital nomad', for the purposes of what Korn has proposed for a visa, a 'remote employee' or 'remote contractor' or maybe 'digital entrepreneur' (this is the new growth area). Primarily software developers, software QA, documentation, etc. Most long term software developers in places such as silicon valley, and all sorts of regional variations of the same.... don't actually 'need' to work in the office other than because of corporate policy. Even before the pandemic there are on the order of 40+ remote work websites that connect people doing remote work with customers that are interested in hiring (and a lot of that work is very well remunerated). Many of these companies are reconsidering their policies about requiring people to work in the office -- so the number of remote workers/contractors is only going to grow. Personally I think it beneficial to areas that have had their market distorted by too much of a concentration of these high paid jobs that push out or make difficult to live in/near for people that are not in these high paid jobs - maybe with more people not having to work in the office they can spread out. If some come to Thailand or Vietnam or where-ever to work remotely I can only see it as a positive for the local economy - especially if it is legalized. Many of these employers would have no problems requiring/reporting income to offshore countries (if made easy and convenient). I too do not think of vloggers as digital nomads, but in one way they are - but often it is no more than supplemental income for those that live in Thailand. I would not think they would ever qualify for what Korn is considering a 'digital nomad' visa. Most do not have enough views to generate the income that would be expected of a digital nomad. (the number that I know of are insignificant as well). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poet Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said: Digital Nomad is both a misnomer and also overused to represent many things to many people Yes, I think even most digital nomads are confused. Work is evolving on several levels. The idea of a "job for life" is no longer realistic. The notion that you receive your education before starting your worklife and don't need to keep adding new skills is no longer feasible. The idea that you have to be in a certain place, for a certain specific number of hours each workday, with some sort of manager keeping a beady eye on you, is slowly melting away - results now matter more than attendance. The key concepts that people will become obvious to more people over the coming decade is that where your job exists does not have to be where you are, and that where you pay taxes does not have to be where you live. Again, digital nomads and remote workers who chose to travel are simply a form of long-stay tourist, nothing more. Some countries are already realizing that they are not a threat to local jobs and that their spending brings money into the country and actually creates local jobs. It simply does not matter what they are doing as they tap away on their Macbooks. The secret way to encourage more of this particular category of long-stay tourist is to make it easy for people stay in your country for six months or a year. Thailand was actually doing a pretty good job of this before the coup. Coincidentally, this also encouraged all the other forms of long-stay tourist. Post-Covid, at least until mass tourism recovers in about a decade, it would be smart for Thailand to widely publicize a visa waiver system that encourages digital nomads, remote workers, retirees, and anyone else with a few months to spare to, simply hop on a plane and enjoy the sun in Thailand. No paperwork, no Immigration offices, no 90-day reports, no stress - the recipe that, over half-a-century, organically built Thailand's position as a tourism superpower, the envy of every neighboring country. That is the only sort of hub that Thailand is ever going to be, and it should embrace that. Edited October 15, 2020 by Poet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hna Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 Reforms are in the air gentleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhunKenAP Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 Better lower the tax rates drastically to be similar to Hong Kong and Singapore, if they want to attract anyone in today's environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dart12 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 "Digital Nomad" was just a marketers dreamed up term to sell bizz opp courses once upon a time. Sounded sexy. Then adopted by every make money online , make money fast pitch. So, I can see how it's adopted and seen in a negative light.@Poet has been giving excellent descriptions of what "nomads" really do. But "Digital Nomad" is really just wrong word usage for most. REally, these "nomads" are one of 3 basic types of things. 1. The are an employee that works online 2. A contractor that works online 3. A freelancer that works online 4. An entrepreneur who works online 5. A business owner whose business is run online. Starting at 3, if they focused or found their niche of expertise, they are making over six figures easy. But like offline businesses, you'll find a 95% failure rate, or people who are serial course buyers with a hobby. So, they might be claiming to be...but they are struggling people just trying to make their way. #5 is generating 7 to 8 figures yearly revenue pretty easily. (Don't mistake that for profits though). Oh. I guess their is a number 6. and that is the ones that annoy you I think. "Influencers" on IG, YT, TikTok now. yeah, they made it by running around and taking a bunch of pics as early adapters. And usually loudmouth look at me idiots that used to have no place in society as a success in the work place...but the populace loves train wrecks, so the world has flipped lol...and they also make a good living online if they built up their followers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moo 2 Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Could be a good idea if Thailand was level with the UK or elsewhere in term of Freedom of Expression, with is not the case at present time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misty Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 15 hours ago, Cranky said: Are you kidding? Even the quietest food sellers knock out at least a grand a day up to 10s of thousands. Ever seen the stalls on Cowboy at office kicking out time? Or Wireless Road - good luck getting a seat at lunch time Hundreds of plates of nosh shifted between 5-8 to office girls finishing for the day and the girlies clocking on. Almost every 711 has a few very profitable stalls, (dogs are happy) I know a chicken BBQ stand that flogs at least 30 chickens a day before lunchtime at a profit of 100b a go. Beautiful business model, sell all you prepare then go home, next to no overheads - taxes paid in full to the BIB of course... You seem to know a lot about their businesses, so I'll defer to your expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTuner Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 12 hours ago, Poet said: In one way or another, we all sell our time. There is nothing mercenary about wanting to capture more of the value you create for your family, rather than some boss. It's still quite close to the business model. Like Ronin back in Japan, selling their skills to the highest bidder. Nothing wrong with it, one man bands are a good thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A512 Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 On 10/14/2020 at 11:18 AM, Thaiwrath said: That old chestnut again ! ???????????? priceless huh? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter zwart Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Finaly a thought that make sence. Where again did this gentleman had his education? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 An inflammatory post denigrating other members who posted in this topic has been removed as well as a reply. A post using a trolling meme has been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkk_bwana Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 On 10/15/2020 at 7:55 AM, bkkcanuck8 said: That really is none of your business. It is up to the issuers (the Thai people and their government) and the people they issue visas for. I am Thai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 14 hours ago, bkk_bwana said: I am Thai. Well then, it is lucky you are in a democratic country where the government listens to the wishes of it's people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofthemountain Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said: Well then, it is lucky you are in a democratic country where the government listens to the wishes of it's people... To be fair, even in the democratic countries it's pretty rare that the government listen to the wishes of it's people, A lot of promises before every election, then when it's done it's business as usual mostly for the benefit of and handfull of wealthy elites Edited October 18, 2020 by kingofthemountain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, kingofthemountain said: To be fair, even in the democratic countries it's pretty rare that the government listen to the wishes of it's people, A lot of promises before every election, then when it's done it's business as usual mostly for the benefit of and handfull of wealthy elites That is why I said he was lucky ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC 71 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 On 10/14/2020 at 12:31 PM, Justgrazing said: the back of beyond in Nakhon Nowhere .. yawn .. my mate who does this sort of freelancing won't be living up to that expectation if he comes back .. His bird asked him to get her some new tights to replace her laddered one's when he was in the supermarket that he always walks to .. he took a look saying " I know they're on their last legs but they haven't come apart at the seams yet " .. an' it nearly kicked off in Soi/6 when he discovered the lady drink scam .. alas Thailand I fear you haven't done your research if you think digital travelling folk are big spenders .. Just think how much the coffee shops could make though. 1 coffee and 1 free glass of water every 2-3 hrs all ads up you know ! ???? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) On 10/16/2020 at 6:28 AM, bkkcanuck8 said: Digital Nomad is both a misnomer and also overused to represent many things to many people (which can mean communication is an issue). A more accurate term for what I consider to be a 'digital nomad', for the purposes of what Korn has proposed for a visa, a 'remote employee' or 'remote contractor' or maybe 'digital entrepreneur' (this is the new growth area). Primarily software developers, software QA, documentation, etc. Most long term software developers in places such as silicon valley, and all sorts of regional variations of the same.... don't actually 'need' to work in the office other than because of corporate policy. Even before the pandemic there are on the order of 40+ remote work websites that connect people doing remote work with customers that are interested in hiring (and a lot of that work is very well remunerated). Many of these companies are reconsidering their policies about requiring people to work in the office -- so the number of remote workers/contractors is only going to grow. Personally I think it beneficial to areas that have had their market distorted by too much of a concentration of these high paid jobs that push out or make difficult to live in/near for people that are not in these high paid jobs - maybe with more people not having to work in the office they can spread out. If some come to Thailand or Vietnam or where-ever to work remotely I can only see it as a positive for the local economy - especially if it is legalized. Many of these employers would have no problems requiring/reporting income to offshore countries (if made easy and convenient). I too do not think of vloggers as digital nomads, but in one way they are - but often it is no more than supplemental income for those that live in Thailand. I would not think they would ever qualify for what Korn is considering a 'digital nomad' visa. Most do not have enough views to generate the income that would be expected of a digital nomad. (the number that I know of are insignificant as well). So what exactly/specifically do digital nomads provide? Further, you mention: "Many of these companies are reconsidering their policies about requiring people to work in the office -- so the number of remote workers/contractors is only going to grow." Some jobs can be performed at home because they are very mechanical by nature. It's also well proven by decades of research and experience that daily face to face interaction in the workplace is a high contributor to value added team work/team discussion, innovation, creativity, competitive advantage / fast discussion of competitor activity, maintaining focus, strong motivation, work efficiency, fast on the spot / face to face monitoring of the value of work outputs / quantity and quality of work outputs, etc. But perhaps you thing these things are not important? Edited October 18, 2020 by scorecard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said: Well then, it is lucky you are in a democratic country where the government listens to the wishes of it's people... ? democratic country? The poster said "i am Thai". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 On 10/15/2020 at 12:28 PM, bkkcanuck8 said: And there will likely be more of them. My old company polled it's staff and more than 80% have chosen to continue working remotely - so the company has merged two office towers into one tower (one with a longer lease) and will close one of the office towers in the core of the city. (not sure about the 3rd one that is on the outskirts). What city are you talking about? What's the nature of the work these 80% of staff have elected to continue working at home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, scorecard said: So what exactly/specifically do digital nomads provide? Further, you mention: "Many of these companies are reconsidering their policies about requiring people to work in the office -- so the number of remote workers/contractors is only going to grow." Some jobs can be performed at home because they are very mechanical by nature. It's also well proven by decades of research and experience that daily face to face interaction in the workplace is a high contributor to value added team work/team discussion, innovation, creativity, competitive advantage / fast discussion of competitor activity, maintaining focus, strong motivation, work efficiency, fast on the spot / face to face monitoring of the value of work outputs / quantity and quality of work outputs, etc. But perhaps you thing these things are not important? I have been working remotely in one way or another as needed for more than 10 years (software development - large systems). The end product is virtual in nature (not a physical product, and I don't need access beta hardware that would be controlled in a lab). When I first did work remotely as needed 10 years ago, I was to some extent isolated from the normal development process. The pandemic hit, and the office in a tower downtown closed and has remained closed (probably til next year). The ability to work in a team environment while being remote has improved considerably in the last 10 years. The company has had 6 months of data to evaluate and the results are that productivity and quality of the work has not decreased. The company has polled the employees and found north of 75% of the employees would prefer to continue working remotely. As a result they have started the process of shutting down one of the buildings downtown and anyone wanting to work from the office will all be merged into the remaining building. Those that would prefer to work from home will be able to continue working from home. It is the responsibility of people that are working from home to ensure that they have setup an environment that is conducive to being productive and being able to properly communicate with others working on the same projects. In my case my office has a computer as needed, a dynamic mic (high quality), video camera etc. Currently we use a mix of Microsoft Teams/Office, and Cisco WebEx. We can continue to hold 'stand-up' short meetings to have a quick status meeting to both keep people in touch, and to quickly update everyone as to their current status and needs. We can video-conference at specific meeting times, or you can send a quick message saying you need to talk in depth about something ASAP. So there is video conferencing on demand, and video conferencing for set meetings. You can share the screen for code review or work review, team meetings to go over requirements and design with the documents shared as you do it. The fast face to face meetings are no different than being in the office as it is expected that the you will have a reasonably consistent schedule (send message and a minute later you have a face-to-face video-conference) and you will have the discipline necessary to work without constant supervision (if you can't and you have to have someone looking over your shoulder -- you probably should have been fired long ago). If you work in a paired programming situation, you can continue to do so (though I would recommend at least 2 monitors). Simply put, the data that the company has gathered indicates no decrease in productivity or quality. We are continuing to meet tight deadline schedules etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, scorecard said: What city are you talking about? What's the nature of the work these 80% of staff have elected to continue working at home? City is in Canada (one of the large ones). The nature of the work is all intellectual property based... software development (all phases of it) for large systems. That includes Software Development, DBAs, Business Analysts, Quality Assurance, and Project Management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 46 minutes ago, scorecard said: ? democratic country? The poster said "i am Thai". It had elections, the people voted, the result was a government was formed... so for now... it is democratic... probably even more so than the United States right now.... where the President has his people and the rest are enemies... and the system has been setup so the elected can chose who votes for them (gerrymandering), and dissuade people that they don't want from going to the polls etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofthemountain Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 54 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said: It had elections, the people voted, the result was a government was formed... so for now... it is democratic... You are kidding right? The last Thai election was a farce half of the seats were already pre reserved by the constitution (Writed by the junta) to the junta members and the first of them propulsed without any surprise from putchist army general to first minister amazing Thailand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said: It had elections, the people voted, the result was a government was formed... so for now... it is democratic... probably even more so than the United States right now.... where the President has his people and the rest are enemies... and the system has been setup so the elected can chose who votes for them (gerrymandering), and dissuade people that they don't want from going to the polls etc. First half of your post, I don't agree at all. Second half of your post I totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 minute ago, kingofthemountain said: You are kidding right? The last Thai election was a farce half of the seats were already pre reserved by the constitution (Writed by the junta) to the junta members and the first of them propulsed without any surprise from putchist army general to first minister amazing Thailand I am being very generous since I am a guest in this country, it is up to the locals to determine if it is the democracy they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said: I have been working remotely in one way or another as needed for more than 10 years (software development - large systems). The end product is virtual in nature (not a physical product, and I don't need access beta hardware that would be controlled in a lab). When I first did work remotely as needed 10 years ago, I was to some extent isolated from the normal development process. The pandemic hit, and the office in a tower downtown closed and has remained closed (probably til next year). The ability to work in a team environment while being remote has improved considerably in the last 10 years. The company has had 6 months of data to evaluate and the results are that productivity and quality of the work has not decreased. The company has polled the employees and found north of 75% of the employees would prefer to continue working remotely. As a result they have started the process of shutting down one of the buildings downtown and anyone wanting to work from the office will all be merged into the remaining building. Those that would prefer to work from home will be able to continue working from home. It is the responsibility of people that are working from home to ensure that they have setup an environment that is conducive to being productive and being able to properly communicate with others working on the same projects. In my case my office has a computer as needed, a dynamic mic (high quality), video camera etc. Currently we use a mix of Microsoft Teams/Office, and Cisco WebEx. We can continue to hold 'stand-up' short meetings to have a quick status meeting to both keep people in touch, and to quickly update everyone as to their current status and needs. We can video-conference at specific meeting times, or you can send a quick message saying you need to talk in depth about something ASAP. So there is video conferencing on demand, and video conferencing for set meetings. You can share the screen for code review or work review, team meetings to go over requirements and design with the documents shared as you do it. The fast face to face meetings are no different than being in the office as it is expected that the you will have a reasonably consistent schedule (send message and a minute later you have a face-to-face video-conference) and you will have the discipline necessary to work without constant supervision (if you can't and you have to have someone looking over your shoulder -- you probably should have been fired long ago). If you work in a paired programming situation, you can continue to do so (though I would recommend at least 2 monitors). Simply put, the data that the company has gathered indicates no decrease in productivity or quality. We are continuing to meet tight deadline schedules etc. Might work in your profession but in many it doesn't work, and there's plenty of examples of companies, globally who initially embraced work at home and were very disappointed with the results and quickly reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said: I am being very generous since I am a guest in this country, it is up to the locals to determine if it is the democracy they want. Well the protests of the last several weeks in the LOS and last week-end, show clearly it's not a democracy and it's not what the protestors see as a democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, scorecard said: Well the protests of the last several weeks in the LOS and last week-end, show clearly it's not a democracy and it's not what the protestors see as a democracy. Protests do not necessarily represent a majority make, they look like they number in the 10,000ish range... until the general population is more motivated - the demonstrations are but a drop in the bucket. You might get some notice with that size of a demonstration, but for the most part it will be ignored. I participated in demonstrations when I was in school, might have had on the order of 15,000 people.... (not overthrowing a government - just policy demonstrations)... I don't know if it was a majority position, but at that number you generally get ignored. If you are trying to overthrow a government, you have to have more massive demonstrations. This is not people power (yet). If the government does not do something stupid - like have the police army cause mass casualties... I just don't see the numbers growing to the number needed. Edited October 18, 2020 by bkkcanuck8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofthemountain Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 9 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said: I am being very generous since I am a guest in this country, it is up to the locals to determine if it is the democracy they want. The locals would be very pleased to be able to determine the democracy they want the last time they have been allowed to exprim a free vote, it wasn't the actual clique who was chosen, hence the 2014 coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkcanuck8 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 2 hours ago, kingofthemountain said: The locals would be very pleased to be able to determine the democracy they want the last time they have been allowed to exprim a free vote, it wasn't the actual clique who was chosen, hence the 2014 coup. They likely do, but they need to demonstrate their will... and 10,000s of thousands out in the street is not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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