Three dead as woman beheaded in knife attack at French church

[Opl]

5 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Mate, you seriously need to take some reading comprehension classes because I’ve never said that the actual killers should not be held responsible for their heinous crimes! Stop putting words in my mouth! 

 

You said CARTOONS  kill innocents.

Why do we need nukes..

Think again

Edited November 4, 2020 by Opl

[Opl]

4 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

From a theological POV it’s not allowed in sunni Islam to make pictures of Prophets.

To make caricatures and ridiculing cartoons of religious symbols and prophets is blasphemy.

 

From a legal POV it’s not allowed to incite hate through blasphemy.

The hate message(s) as such don’t need to be detailed in the cartoons. The response from public opinion may not result in hate speech or inciting hate or agression.

Even a good lawyer can file the controversial cartoons as anti-semitism.

 

 

 

 

People literally getting beheaded in France and there are people saying it's bigotry for pointing out that there is a problem.

 

"The robust English view used to be that the correct response to offensive words is to ignore them, or to answer them with a rebuke. If you invoke the law at all, it should be to protect the one who gives the offence, and not the one who takes it. Now, it seems, it is all the other way round."

"Free speech is not the cause of the tensions that are growing around us, but the only possible solution to them."

 

"Why we should defend the right to be offensive" : https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34613855

 

Could be 100% French POV,  and teaching Free Speech means you have to tolerate being offended possibly, and offending possibly - without the risk of being killed. It really isn’t too much to ask, is it?

NO other " Religion" in the world responds with murder to being offended.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Opl

[Morch]

9 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

My comments were broad in nature, there will always be country specific exceptions. When there are Western leaders encouraging demonstrations / uprising within dictatorships one can anticipate armed crushing of those demonstration, no doubt assisted by surveillance and other  technology supplied by the West, systemic torture of those arrested and executions. Does the West accept any responsibility whatsoever for those murdered / tortured and so on - nope. Ayslum seeker quotas are being severely cut back, welcomed by members of this forum (in summary sod off and die). IMO it is the height of cynical posturing to encourage resistance, but only minimal support for those seeking to escape the cruelties of the dictatorships. 

 

Your comments were broad in nature, and hence inaccurate. To how many countries and situations involving the so-called Arab Spring do both your posts apply? And as for the arms supply angle - guessing that most arms used to suppress protests were small arms, hand arms and auxiliary systems. These can effectively be bought from wherever. Their provision does not, IMO, apply the sort of special responsibility tried for.

 

With regard to reactions in the West - I do not thing they were quite so uniform. Also, as said in a previous post, some instances were hijacked by forces that were not necessarily agents for the greater good (or for Western interests). Expressing support, then realizing things take a wrong turn or go nowhere, thus changing course, is routine.

 

The refugee/Asylum seeker issues are somewhat more complex than being 'expressions of support' for this or that. One could say that at least in part, these issues were hijacked as well - in service of various agendas. 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

You guys just don’t want to get it, do you? 
 

So let me make myself crystal clear: the lives of innocent people are way more important than Hebdo’s right to make fun of Islam! 
 

It’s completely and utterly unnecessary for them to publish these cartoons! 
 

They intentionally publish them to enrage the Islamic world and in the process people get killed. 

 

8 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Mate, you seriously need to take some reading comprehension classes because I’ve never said that the actual killers should not be held responsible for their heinous crimes! Stop putting words in my mouth! 

 

8 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

BECAUSE IT GETS INNOCENT PEOPLE KILLED!!! 
 

Why is this so hard to understand?! 

 

 

Where do you draw the line? Why does Islam merit a different treatment than other religions?

[Thorgal]

2 hours ago, Opl said:

 

People literally getting beheaded in France and there are people saying it's bigotry for pointing out that there is a problem.

 

"The robust English view used to be that the correct response to offensive words is to ignore them, or to answer them with a rebuke. If you invoke the law at all, it should be to protect the one who gives the offence, and not the one who takes it. Now, it seems, it is all the other way round."

"Free speech is not the cause of the tensions that are growing around us, but the only possible solution to them."

 

"Why we should defend the right to be offensive" : https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34613855

 

Could be 100% French POV,  and teaching Free Speech means you have to tolerate being offended possibly, and offending possibly - without the risk of being killed. It really isn’t too much to ask, is it?

NO other " Religion" in the world responds with murder to being offended.

 

Nobody will deny that there isn’t a problem.

 

JP Chevennement proposed 25 years ago to all French official Muslim associations recognised by the French government to sign a petition for implementing a law against blasphemy.

 

None of them signed the petition.

 

Recent attacks could have been avoided by implementing (a temporary) law or decree by the president in order to focus on covid-19 confinement, gillet jaune protests, sloppy economic growth, Turkish conflict, etc.

[Opl]

15 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Nobody will deny that there isn’t a problem.

 

JP Chevennement proposed 25 years ago to all French official Muslim associations recognised by the French government to sign a petition for implementing a law against blasphemy.

 

None of them signed the petition.

 

Recent attacks could have been avoided by implementing (a temporary) law or decree by the president in order to focus on covid-19 confinement, gillet jaune protests, sloppy economic growth, Turkish conflict, etc.

 

France is a country of many religions, and none.

Attacks are perpetrated by people submitted to "God's work", therefore there is no way to prevent these attacks. 

Europe has been put in the situation where they need to erode some civil liberties to avoid  COVID, we should be able to erode some civil rights to get rid of Islamism, deport all those who enable these attacks.

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Opl

[pacovl46]

9 hours ago, luckyluke said:

 

Assuming the next demand of these psychopath Muslims would be :

Stop  go to church, or...

Should the Christian community concede ?

or

Women should not wear shorts and sleeveless tops, or...

Should women concede ?

 

It seems that you consider the publication of cartoons as provocative.

 

Would continuing to go to church, and continuing to wear shorts and sleeveless tops be provocative as well ?

 

Or do you have a list of what you consider as not to be done,

and what becomes really too much as demand from those psychopath Muslims ?

Sorry, mate! I don’t play the reductio ad absurdum game! 

[pacovl46]

6 hours ago, Opl said:

 

You said CARTOONS  kill innocents.

Why do we need nukes..

Think again

In case you didn’t notice, I’m through with you! No need to reply to my posts anymore! 

[pacovl46]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

 

 

 

Where do you draw the line? Why does Islam merit a different treatment than other religions?

Can you please take some reading comprehension classes because we’re going in circles here! 
 

 

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

 

Cutbacks of asylum seeker quotas are political, not financially based.

 

 

 

 

Cause it is, all the west needs to do is print some more money,problem solved.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Can you please take some reading comprehension classes because we’re going in circles here! 
 

 

 

Could you try and answer posts instead of tossing insults?

[Opl]

24 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

In case you didn’t notice, I’m through with you! No need to reply to my posts anymore! 

I'll make it easier to understand:  If I thought the guest coming to my table would kill me if I showed him a cartoon, I would probably not be inviting him over - it's not a cartoon thing, this is called discernment.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Opl

[Scott]

Troll post reported and removed. 

 

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Sorry, mate! I don’t play the reductio ad absurdum game! 

Poor cop-out. 

Try harder. 

[pacovl46]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Could you try and answer posts instead of tossing insults?

I’ve answered all the questions already. It’s not my fault that you don’t get it! 

[pacovl46]

11 hours ago, Opl said:

I'll make it easier to understand:  If I thought the guest coming to my table would kill me if I showed him a cartoon, I would probably not be inviting him over - it's not a cartoon thing, this is called discernment.

Whatever gets you through the night! 

[pacovl46]

9 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Poor cop-out. 

Try harder. 

Nice try! ???? Not biting on that one either, though! 

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Nice try! ???? Not biting on that one either, though! 

I understand.

Running away is an easy way to cope. 

 

[Morch]

13 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

I’ve answered all the questions already. It’s not my fault that you don’t get it! 

 

No, you just toss insults about or cop out.

Not clear where do you draw the line - when does giving in to demands becomes too much? Not clear why Islam should be treated in a different manner than other religions.

[pacovl46]

14 hours ago, luckyluke said:

I understand.

Running away is an easy way to cope. 

 

You got it all wrong! Same goes for the subject matter at hand. Little hint, go through your list of questions on where I’ll draw the line and then fact check how many times attackers have demanded items on your list. You also might wanna look up the definition of reductio ad absurdum afterwards and then hopefully you’ll get it! ????

[pacovl46]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No, you just toss insults about or cop out.

Not clear where do you draw the line - when does giving in to demands becomes too much? Not clear why Islam should be treated in a different manner than other religions.

As I’ve said, read all my comments on the subject matter and you’ll find the answers! 
 

Insults?! I’m just telling it like it is, sorry if you can’t handle the truth! 
 

Also, you’re getting off subject! The issue at hand is, innocent people die because Hebdo intentionally enrages the islamic world. My question is, is it worth it that these people die so Hebdo can publish their completely unnecessary rubbish? You should focus on that instead of drawing lines! 
 

They can demand whatever they want, that doesn’t mean that they’re gonna get it. Hebdo has a choice, apparently they don’t give a flying F about their own people, that’s why they continue to publish their BS, despite the fact that people have died and will continue to die every time they publish anything related to Islam. 

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

You got it all wrong! Same goes for the subject matter at hand. Little hint, go through your list of questions on where I’ll draw the line and then fact check how many times attackers have demanded items on your list. You also might wanna look up the definition of reductio ad absurdum afterwards and then hopefully you’ll get it! ????

Sure, you are the only one who got it all right. 

 

You seems to not taking in account that the concessions of the weak, are the concessions of fear. 

 

And instoring fear is what it is all about. 

 

Now,

don't mock by a cartoon, or... 

 

Next,

don't... or... 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by luckyluke

[Susco]

1 hour ago, pacovl46 said:

Hebdo has a choice, apparently they don’t give a flying F about their own people, that’s why they continue to publish their BS, despite the fact that people have died and will continue to die every time they publish anything related to Islam. 

 

 

Matthew 5:38-40

Eye for Eye

³⁸ “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^{[a] 39} But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. ⁴⁰ And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

 

Je suis Charlie

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

 

 

innocent people die because Hebdo intentionally enrages the islamic world....
 

 Hebdo has a choice... 

 

Innocent people die because some psychopath Muslims are convinced that this is the only way there should be reacted on mockery. 

 

Those psycho Muslims have a choice, they don't have to kill. 

They just think, in their sick brain, that it is the only way. 

 

Should a society really abide to the demands of some demented? 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by luckyluke

[Opl]

10 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

As I’ve said, read all my comments on the subject matter and you’ll find the answers! 
 

Insults?! I’m just telling it like it is, sorry if you can’t handle the truth! 
 

Also, you’re getting off subject! The issue at hand is, innocent people die because Hebdo intentionally enrages the islamic world. My question is, is it worth it that these people die so Hebdo can publish their completely unnecessary rubbish? You should focus on that instead of drawing lines! 
 

They can demand whatever they want, that doesn’t mean that they’re gonna get it. Hebdo has a choice, apparently they don’t give a flying F about their own people, that’s why they continue to publish their BS, despite the fact that people have died and will continue to die every time they publish anything related to Islam. 

 

1.8 Billion Muslim Charlie Hebdo readers, all over the World.. that is something..

Still easier and less risky to go after Charlie Hebdo and burn France flag rather than ISIS flag  and fight against ISIS in their own countries.. And we should be silenced and intimidated, cave in because violence works? 

Charlie Hebdo is already part of France History, chapter " Critical thinking, Free Speech, Moral Obligation".

Again, this is not a cartoon thing.  

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Opl

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Sure, you are the only one who got it all right. 

 

You seems to not taking in account that the concessions of the weak, are the concessions of fear. 

 

And instoring fear is what it is all about. 

 

Now,

don't mock by a cartoon, or... 

 

Next,

don't... or... 

 

 

 

 

 

Whatever!

[pacovl46]

13 hours ago, Susco said:

 

 

Matthew 5:38-40

Eye for Eye

³⁸ “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^{[a] 39} But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. ⁴⁰ And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

 

Je suis Charlie

Well, since you brought Christianity into this, how about love thy neighbor as yourself? I’m sure that includes not mocking people and their religion, especially when it gets innocent people killed?!

[pacovl46]

12 hours ago, luckyluke said:

 

Innocent people die because some psychopath Muslims are convinced that this is the only way there should be reacted on mockery. 

 

Those psycho Muslims have a choice, they don't have to kill. 

They just think, in their sick brain, that it is the only way. 

 

Should a society really abide to the demands of some demented? 

 

 

 

 

We’re going in circles here, you just don’t want to get it! So, for the last time, in my opinion, yes, the ones that kill people are psychopaths, we know that, we know that they will continue to kill, it’s not alright for them to do, I’m not condoning it in any way, shape or form! But, since we know, that this is the way they react to it, we should stop enraging them on purpose under the cover of free speech to spare some people’s lives because the lives of those people are way more important than the ability to mock other people’s religion for no reason other than mocking them. 
 

If you still don’t get/don’t want to get it, then fine, let’s agree to disagree, but I done here! 

[Morch]

14 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

As I’ve said, read all my comments on the subject matter and you’ll find the answers! 
 

Insults?! I’m just telling it like it is, sorry if you can’t handle the truth! 
 

Also, you’re getting off subject! The issue at hand is, innocent people die because Hebdo intentionally enrages the islamic world. My question is, is it worth it that these people die so Hebdo can publish their completely unnecessary rubbish? You should focus on that instead of drawing lines! 
 

They can demand whatever they want, that doesn’t mean that they’re gonna get it. Hebdo has a choice, apparently they don’t give a flying F about their own people, that’s why they continue to publish their BS, despite the fact that people have died and will continue to die every time they publish anything related to Islam. 

 

I've read your comments and found them wanting.

 

The 'issue at hand' is  not what you decide you want to focus on, while ignoring any other point of view. The way you present things is just your opinion. You don't get to dictate what other posters 'need' to focus on.

 

Demands are not necessarily imply an ordered list presented to the public. The demand, in this case, is to refrain from blasphemy when it comes to Islam. If you imagine caving in on this will make everything alright and that there will be no more 'demands' of this sort, we'll have to disagree.

 

You post that demands can be raised, but it does not mean that they will be accepted. And yet, your posts on this topic are all basically supportive of caving in to such a demand.

 

The trouble with your logic, IMO, is that you treat the religious violence involved as a given (something that needs to be accepted). Your posts are essentially about appeasement, in the form of placing the blame on parties who did not kill anyone. Sure, the magazine editors had a choice. So did the murderers who killed these people. You focus solely on the former, while apparently giving the latter a free pass.

 

Kinda doubt most Muslims worldwide, or even in France, subscribe or follow this magazine. Further, they are not obliged to read it, see the cartoons and so on. And yet, violence and death are offered. Go figure.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

We’re going in circles here, you just don’t want to get it! So, for the last time, in my opinion, yes, the ones that kill people are psychopaths, we know that, we know that they will continue to kill, it’s not alright for them to do, I’m not condoning it in any way, shape or form! But, since we know, that this is the way they react to it, we should stop enraging them on purpose under the cover of free speech to spare some people’s lives because the lives of those people are way more important than the ability to mock other people’s religion for no reason other than mocking them. 
 

If you still don’t get/don’t want to get it, then fine, let’s agree to disagree, but I done here! 

 

Basically, you give the killers are free pass, saying 'it is what it is'. The remedy you prescribe is self-placed censorship, limiting  civil rights and freedoms. That's pretty much what people like the killers want ....