EU leaders deadlocked over recovery plan after Hungary, Poland veto

[welovesundaysatspace]

22 minutes ago, transam said:

The leader of your club was the biggest fascist state ever....

Had you actually read the topic here before getting in your anti-EU obsession, you would know that the EU’s problem discussed here is that every member state in fact has a vote and decisions require an unanimous vote. So whatever you’re rambling about a “leader” is obvious hogwash.

 

Add to that that none of your Union’s affairs requires unanimous consent (from all member states; from all electorate) you’re also a hypocrite. 

[vogie]

Isn’t that how England is treating Scotland, or Brexiteers are treating Remainers in the UK? 

Nice bit of deflection there Wolves, and no that is not how England is treating Scotland, Scotland chose to have a vote and the rest of the UK respected the result of that vote, its called democracy. You are not respecting Hungary or Polands vote because they didn't vote how Germany and France wanted them to.

 

"Paris has signalled the EU might move ahead with the recovery fund without Poland and Hungary under an EU "enhanced cooperation" law that allows a group of at least nine countries to pursue a joint project if others object."

 

So basically France wants to ignore votes that doesn't go their way, that doesn't seem very democratic to me and not to mention the posters on here that want them removed from the EU member states because they won't vote as instructed. You have been telling us for the last 4 or 5 years how democratic the EU is, well pull the other one, its got bells on it.

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

Isn’t that how England is treating Scotland, or Brexiteers are treating Remainers in the UK? 

Nice bit of deflection there Wolves, and no that is not how England is treating Scotland, Scotland chose to have a vote and the rest of the UK respected the result of that vote, its called democracy.

Where did you respect that two or your four member states voted against Brexit?  
 

Quote

You are not respecting Hungary or Polands vote because they didn't vote how Germany and France wanted them to.

Please provide some evidence for your claims. I call it hogwash because it seems that:

1) Hungary’s and Poland’s votes are in fact being respected, unfortunately, otherwise we wouldn’t have this topic here; and 

2) It is 24 countries that voted differently. 

 

 

Quote

 

"Paris has signalled the EU might move ahead with the recovery fund without Poland and Hungary under an EU "enhanced cooperation" law that allows a group of at least nine countries to pursue a joint project if others object."

 

So basically France wants to ignore votes that doesn't go their way,

There was a vote on the budget. The fact that France is seeking ways to setup a recovery fund for Covid relief under the “enhanced cooperation law” shows that they’re not ignoring those two countries’ votes on the budget. 

 

 

Quote

that doesn't seem very democratic to me and not to mention the posters on here that want them removed from the EU member states because they won't vote as instructed.

It’s a club. Every club should have ways to expel members that aren’t fit for the club or are damaging it. 
 

Quote

You have been telling us for the last 4 or 5 years how democratic the EU is, well pull the other one, its got bells on it.

And it would be perfectly democratic if a simple majority vote (instead of an unanimous vote) would be required, or if an e.g. two-thirds majority could expel member states for agreed reasons. What UK affairs require an unanimous decisions from all its member states? It wasn’t Brexit for sure ???? 

Edited November 22, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[luckyluke]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did anyone vote for them?

Yes, they are voted in for 2.5 till 5 years.

Mrs. von der Leyen ( President of the European Commission ) was voted in, with a small but sufficient majority ( 383 on the 733 parliamentarians).

[Rookiescot]

Cannot see why the Brexiteers are getting so animated over this subject.

The UK is no longer in the EU so its none of your business is it.

[transam]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Cannot see why the Brexiteers are getting so animated over this subject.

The UK is no longer in the EU so its none of your business is it.

Nor are you in the EU, but this is a TVF thread, relax, chill .....????

[welovesundaysatspace]

19 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Cannot see why the Brexiteers are getting so animated over this subject.

First, this issue shows them how much more democratic the EU is compared to the UKSSR. Whereas Brexit was decided on a razor thin majority (electorate) or no majority at all (member states) without even being binding, the EU requires unanimous consent to the extent that de-facto fascist states can block a budget. Their whole hogwash of the EU being “undemocratic” is collapsing yet again.

 

Secondly, there’s a good chance that people who applaud their own populist in charge for breaking international law and not honoring agreements sympathize with other populists who are doing the same thing. Thus my idea of Hungary and Poland joining the UKSSR instead. Boris and Orban would make good buddies. 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Nor are you in the EU, but this is a TVF thread, relax, chill .....????

 

Maybe you can start following your own advice and stop asking people on here where they are from then.

[transam]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

First, this issue shows them how much more democratic the EU is compared to the UKSSR. Whereas Brexit was decided on a razor thin majority (electorate) or no majority at all (member states) without even being binding, the EU requires unanimous consent to the extent that de-facto fascist states can block a budget. Their whole hogwash of the EU being “undemocratic” is collapsing yet again.

 

Secondly, there’s a good chance that people who applaud their own populist in charge for breaking international law and not honoring agreements sympathize with other populists who are doing the same thing. 

Germany signed a pact with the Russians, did the Germans stick to it, in fact it turned out to be a slaughter....????

 

So please don't go down the "honouring agreements" route ..

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Maybe you can start following your own advice and stop asking people on here where they are from then.

Why, nothing wrong with a clearer picture is there, unless you want to hide something, it worked with you....????

[vogie]

57 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Where did you respect that two or your four member states voted against Brexit?  
 

Please provide some evidence for your claims. I call it hogwash because it seems that:

1) Hungary’s and Poland’s votes are in fact being respected, unfortunately, otherwise we wouldn’t have this topic here; and 

2) It is 24 countries that voted differently. 

 

 

There was a vote on the budget. The fact that France is seeking ways to setup a recovery fund for Covid relief under the “enhanced cooperation law” shows that they’re not ignoring those two countries’ votes on the budget. 

 

 

It’s a club. Every club should have ways to expel members that aren’t fit for the club or are damaging it. 
 

And it would be perfectly democratic if a simple majority vote (instead of an unanimous vote) would be required, or if an e.g. two-thirds majority could expel member states for agreed reasons. What UK affairs require an unanimous decisions from all its member states? It wasn’t Brexit for sure ????  

And it would be perfectly democratic if a simple majority vote (instead of an unanimous vote) would be required, or if an e.g. two-thirds majority could expel member states for agreed reasons.

It would be perfectly democratic using a simple majority, but for the last 4 or 5 years this is not how you have been telling us how the EU works, it seems to me that the EU makes its own rules up to please the big two. Would that be a fair assumption Wolves, and while they are at it, do you think that Poland and Hungary have a legitimate cause for concern. 

It has also been noted that you do get very defensive when anybody questions any aspects of the EU.

Edited November 22, 2020 by vogie

[Baerboxer]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:20 AM, placeholder said:

Hungary no longer qualifies to be called a democracy.

Poland is well on the way.

Better to toss them both out and enjoy an unsubsidized existence if they don't want to conform to EU rules.

 

And who decides the criteria for what constitutes an acceptable democracy? You? The non elected EU appointed bureaucrats? Or the democratically elected governments of a sovereign nation representing the wishes of the people who elected them?

 

Maybe change the name to the European Union of Democratic Nations? Should fit right in with others who like to add the word democratic in their title.

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

First, this issue shows them how much more democratic the EU is compared to the UKSSR. Whereas Brexit was decided on a razor thin majority (electorate) or no majority at all (member states) without even being binding, the EU requires unanimous consent to the extent that de-facto fascist states can block a budget. Their whole hogwash of the EU being “undemocratic” is collapsing yet again.

 

Secondly, there’s a good chance that people who applaud their own populist in charge for breaking international law and not honoring agreements sympathize with other populists who are doing the same thing. Thus my idea of Hungary and Poland joining the UKSSR instead. Boris and Orban would make good buddies. 

 

 

 

 

Rather childish referring to the UK as the UKSSR don't you think?

 

It's obvious to anyone that the EU executive, which didn't even follow it's own rules in electing it's current leader, is controlled by the big two. Others are bought off. Any who don't tow the line are punished financially and denounced as fascists. How ironic one of the big two is lead by a former communist party member and the other by a former career banker. No right and left wing there - straight down the middle 555!

 

What's next, only EU approved political parties will be allowed to stand in EU member states? Ones that follow the correct doctrines? 

 

The EU has interesting ideas on democracy. A senior German Minister once said "elections can't be allowed to change things"! Sums it up well.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

 

It would be perfectly democratic using a simple majority, but for the last 4 or 5 years this is not how you have been telling us how the EU works,

Yes, because I’ve been sticking to the facts. 
 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

it seems to me that the EU makes its own rules up to please the big two.

Not sure why it would seem like that to you, especially since you can see here that the exact opposite is happening. 
 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

It has also been noted that you do get very defensive when anybody questions any aspects of the EU.

Contrary to what you think you’ve noted, I am criticizing the EU for being too democratic and not having implemented enough safeguards to deal with member states that demolish democracy. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Germany signed a pact with the Russians, did the Germans stick to it, in fact it turned out to be a slaughter....????

 

So please don't go down the "honouring agreements" route ..

No, Germany did not. The Third Reich did. Anyway, it’s as relevant as what my uncle’s friend Tommy farts when he had too many pints. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Rather childish referring to the UK as the UKSSR don't you think?

Yes, it is. I’m just parodying the Brexiteers. 
 

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

It's obvious to anyone that the EU executive, which didn't even follow it's own rules in electing it's current leader, is controlled by the big two. Others are bought off. Any who don't tow the line are punished financially and denounced as fascists. How ironic one of the big two is lead by a former communist party member and the other by a former career banker. No right and left wing there - straight down the middle 555!

I can see hair dye running down your face while you’re having trouble coming up with evidence for your conspiracy theories. 
 

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What's next, only EU approved political parties will be allowed to stand in EU member states? Ones that follow the correct doctrines? 
 

Guess what, every democratic country has laws that allows it to declare parties as illegal. So why not, if you want to be part of the club, you gotta accept the rules. 

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Yes, because I’ve been sticking to the facts. 
 

Not sure why it would seem like that to you, especially since you can see here that the exact opposite is happening. 
 

Contrary to what you think you’ve noted, I am criticizing the EU for being too democratic and not having implemented enough safeguards to deal with member states that demolish democracy. 

Yes, because I’ve been sticking to the facts. 

Changing the facts is most different to sticking to the facts. You always claimed because all 27 member states get a vote that makes it democratic. Now it would appear that democracy only rules if they tow the line and vote the same as G and F, oh dear Wolves, that is not democracy.

 

"do you think that Poland and Hungary have a legitimate cause for concern."

You didn't offer an opinion on my question, some-one likened it to Germany inviting 50 guests to a party at their house and finding the don't have enough room for them so they ask their next door neighbour to take some in, and when the neighbour doesn't like that idea, they make the next door neighbours life a living hell by playing loud music 24hrs a day, some neighbours just like peace and tranquility I guess.

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Yes, because I’ve been sticking to the facts. 

Changing the facts is most different to sticking to the facts. You always claimed because all 27 member states get a vote that makes it democratic. Now it would appear that democracy only rules if they tow the line and vote the same as G and F, oh dear Wolves, that is not democracy.

It can’t be more democratic than an unanimous decision. And that is what’s happening. Unfortunately. 
 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

 

"do you think that Poland and Hungary have a legitimate cause for concern."

You didn't offer an opinion on my question

I don’t even understand the question. Anyway, Poland and Hungary can do what they want. I just don’t want them in the EU as long as they’re doing what they’re doing. 

 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

some-one likened it to Germany inviting 50 guests to a party at their house and finding the don't have enough room for them so they ask their next door neighbour to take some in, and when the neighbour doesn't like that idea, they make the next door neighbours life a living hell by playing loud music 24hrs a day, some neighbours just like peace and tranquility I guess.

You’ve never been particularly good at analogies. Here’s mine: There’s a club. You can become a member. The membership comes with a membership fee and certain other rules. You don’t play by the rules you can get expelled from the club. That’s how it should be. Unfortunately, the EU wanted to be too democratic and now cannot expel members that don’t abide by the rules. That’s a pity but I guess we have to accept it. 

 

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You’ve never been particularly good at analogies. Here’s mine: There’s a club. You can become a member. The membership comes with a membership fee and certain other rules. You don’t play by the rules you can get expelled from the club. That’s how it should be. Unfortunately, the EU wanted to be too democratic and now cannot expel members that don’t abide by the rules. That’s a pity but I guess we have to accept it. 

 

And here is where your analogy falls flat on its face. We joined a golf club and over a period of time this so called club began surruptiously changing into a rugby club, but hey the comittee wasn't happy with that arrangement, they also wanted some members to pay for other members fees. Now if somebody had explained that some members pay and others get to play for free, you wouldn't have believed have them now would you and you certainly wouldn't have joined this 'democratic' club would you.

And then one brave member decided to say enough is enough, I shall open my own golf club just a mile down the road, and what do you think that happened when he applied for planning permission, that's correct, the nasty golf club said you can open your own golf club, but you cannot take in any new members without us screening them first, you can only open from 12 noon to 1500 hrs and we have the right to all your land to take as many lost golf balls as we find, you will be allowed 2 lost balls a day, and you must follow our golf club rules.

Ring a bell?

 

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Why, nothing wrong with a clearer picture is there, unless you want to hide something, it worked with you....????

 

Because you use it as a tool to dismiss others opinions. So stop being a hypocrite.

And do tell what is it I have been hiding? 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Because you use it as a tool to dismiss others opinions. So stop being a hypocrite.

And do tell what is it I have been hiding? 

1. That is what you would think as you are an anti-British Brit.

2. You are a Scottish Nationalist.....

3. I am off up the pub.....????

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

1. That is what you would think as you are an anti-British Brit.

2. You are a Scottish Nationalist.....

3. I am off up the pub.....????

 

Heres a clue Trans. Even after independence the Scots will still be British. I know you like to equate British with English but thats factually wrong.

 

Enjoy your trip to the pub and have a good evening. Try not to bore the pants off everyone with your Brexit sermons. ????

[david555]

Well ... let me spoil all the fun from the brexiteers bunch .....solution is already there and .... legal , even not a "prorogation "  needed as by Bojo before for his problem ... ????

 

EU could bypass the veto of Hungary and Poland (alkhaleejtoday.co) 

 

EU could bypass the veto of Hungary and Poland

INTERNATIONAL 2 days ago REPORT

 

Ghe “debate” of the heads of state and government on the Hungarian and Polish blockade of the EUR 1.8 trillion corona package from the EU budget and reconstruction funds lasted just 16 minutes on Thursday evening. According to diplomats, besides Chancellor Angela Merkel, who leads the negotiations for the German EU Council Presidency, and the President of the European Council Charles Michel, only the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, his Polish colleague Mateusz Morawiecki and their new “ally”, the Slovene, took action Janez Janša, the word. A video summit is simply not the right format to resolve the conflict, it was said afterwards. That is why it was agreed among the other “bosses” not to react.

 

 

Hungary and Poland vetoed the package on Monday. They refuse to allow the EU to cut EU aid in the future because of violations of the rule of law. In its role as the incumbent Council Presidency, Germany will sound out what options there are to persuade them to approve, said Merkel after the meeting. “We are still at the very beginning.” At the same time, there is growing unrest in the European Parliament that this could no longer be in time so that the money urgently needed, especially in southern Europe, can flow at least halfway on time. From there now comes a new idea of how the other EU states could increase the pressure on the two countries. The MEP Sven Giegold from the Greens is campaigning for the Corona Fund to be simply adopted as part of the so-called enhanced cooperation provided for in the EU treaties.

 

EU treaty keeps option open

This allows a group of “nine or more member states” to drive individual projects that are not supported by all 27 EU countries on their own. You would need the “approval” of the Council of Ministers for this. In this case, however, he could grant this with a qualified majority. Poland and Hungary could not block the decision. The fund itself would then still have to be passed unanimously, but only by the 25 member states involved – Slovenia, unlike Hungary and Poland, did not veto it.

 

more....

 

????

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by david555

[luckyluke]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

Ring a bell?

One wonder why ,a past member, who escaped this awful attitudes club, still want to stay in contact, even doing business, with it. 

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

One wonder why ,a past member, who escaped this awful attitudes club, still want to stay in contact, even doing business, with it. 

He has no choice Luke, the member knows that if he doesn't agree to the nasty golf clubs rules they will object to the planning permission, but little do they know that he has an ace up is sleeve.

 

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

He has no choice

Don't buy it,

one has always a choice.

But as most of the time, the mercantile aspect surpass the moral one.

Which put the 2 parties on the same level.

Up to each in particular to judge/categorize/label this level. 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Don't buy it,

one has always a choice.

But as most of the time, the mercantile aspect surpass the moral one.

Which put the 2 parties on the same level.

Up to each in particular to judge/categorize/label this level. 

But due to covid many of the local business have closed and he thinks that more people will have some extra time on their hands and Rushi Sunak may pay for them all to play golf.

[RayC]

39 minutes ago, vogie said:

He has no choice Luke, the member knows that if he doesn't agree to the nasty golf clubs rules they will object to the planning permission, but little do they know that he has an ace up is sleeve.

 

Prey tell what is this 'ace up his sleeve'?

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

Prey tell what is this 'ace up his sleeve'?

Spades. HTH

[luckyluke]

32 minutes ago, vogie said:

But due to covid many of the local business have closed and he thinks that more people will have some extra time on their hands and Rushi Sunak may pay for them all to play golf.

British humour I assume.