Brexit talks still stuck because EU is asking too much, UK says

[Baerboxer]

14 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The UK should just cancel the talks. They don't want to agree to a reasonable deal with the EU. Ok, fine, then don't waste everybody's time.

Boris and others always said no deal is better than a bad deal. Fine. No deal is it.

If that is said now then everybody has at least almost a month to prepare for the consequences. There is no point in talking, talking, talking and then on the 31st December nobody is prepared.

Bye bye UK. It would have been nice to continue on reasonable terms with you. But you didn't want that. Good luck for the future, you will need it.

 

The EU don't want a reasonable deal. They want control and all their own way.

 

This behavior was so clear it resulted in Johnson being elected with a substantial majority. Other factors influenced that of course but British people were become alienated by the EU childlike behavior.

 

Had the EU listened to more reasoned voices, like Guy Verhofstadt, and gone on a charm offensive, the  results could have been very different, given the close initial referendum result and clear majority of remainers within parliament.

 

But, like most people, threats and bullying often provoke the opposite response.

[polpott]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Can you provide citation for where Junker specifically said that please?

 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/juncker-regrets-not-having-interfered-in-brexit-referendum-campaign/

 

"Back in 2016, before the Brexit referendum, Juncker said that “deserters won’t be welcome with open arms”.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/jean-claude-juncker-on-brexit-and-the-european-union-2016-6?r=US&IR=T

 

"Juncker: Of course that cannot be ruled out, since populists never miss an opportunity to create a lot of noise about their anti-Europe stance. However, the repercussions of the British referendum could quickly put a stop to such crass rabble-rousing, as it should soon become clear that the UK was better off inside the EU - economically, socially and in foreign policy terms."

[polpott]

11 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The EU don't want a reasonable deal. They want control and all their own way.

 

This behavior was so clear it resulted in Johnson being elected with a substantial majority. Other factors influenced that of course but British people were become alienated by the EU childlike behavior.

 

Had the EU listened to more reasoned voices, like Guy Verhofstadt, and gone on a charm offensive, the  results could have been very different, given the close initial referendum result and clear majority of remainers within parliament.

 

But, like most people, threats and bullying often provoke the opposite response.

No bigger bully than Boris Cummings who expelled 21 Tory MPs for daring to prevent a no deal Brexit.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-list-21-conservative-rebels-winston-churchill-ken-clarke-2019-9?r=US&IR=T

 

"The rebels had joined with opposition parties in order to vote for a plan that could delay the UK's exit from the European Union and prevent a no-deal Brexit."

[OneMoreFarang]

18 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The EU don't want a reasonable deal. They want control and all their own way.

 

This behavior was so clear it resulted in Johnson being elected with a substantial majority. Other factors influenced that of course but British people were become alienated by the EU childlike behavior.

 

Had the EU listened to more reasoned voices, like Guy Verhofstadt, and gone on a charm offensive, the  results could have been very different, given the close initial referendum result and clear majority of remainers within parliament.

 

But, like most people, threats and bullying often provoke the opposite response.

You mention Boris the clown and then you write about the EU childlike behavior. Are you serious?

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

it had not mutated into the mainly political monster it is today.

This will only be significant, if the man in the street in Europe, will feel concretely the negative effects of the E.U. in his daily life.

[JonnyF]

11 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

This will only be significant, if the man in the street in Europe, will feel concretely the negative effects of the E.U. in his daily life.

 

The man in the street?

 

Or the fishermen in their boats?

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Reasonable? Are you serious? There is nothing reasonable about what the EU is proposing.

 

That's a perspective most Britons have.

 

Most Europeans, on their side, believe that every proposal the E.U. does to the U.K. is immediately considered as unrealistic.

 

I am afraid it will not be possible to modify these convictions.

[luckyluke]

10 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

The man in the street?

 

Or the fishermen in their boats?

 

The fishermen are only a minority,

and we all know what a minority represent for the majority.

[micmichd]

15 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The UK should just cancel the talks. They don't want to agree to a reasonable deal with the EU. Ok, fine, then don't waste everybody's time.

Boris and others always said no deal is better than a bad deal. Fine. No deal is it.

If that is said now then everybody has at least almost a month to prepare for the consequences. There is no point in talking, talking, talking and then on the 31st December nobody is prepared.

Bye bye UK. It would have been nice to continue on reasonable terms with you. But you didn't want that. Good luck for the future, you will need it.

Bye bye collapsing Eurozone. 

[polpott]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

I underestimated their petty vindictiveness and willingness to cut off their nose to spite their face. My bad

Hardly petty vindictiveness. They are sending a clear message to other states on the consequences of leaving. Basically, "you can't have your cake and eat it".

 

Cutting their nose off to spite their face? Each of the 27 EU states are cutting a small portion of their noses off, UK is lopping the lot off. Only one winner there.

 

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

The UK will be fine

Pretty sure,

there will be of course issues, but convinced it will fine.

Same thing for the E.U..

 

Of course there will be voices claiming, even hoping, the U.K. /E.U. will be a failure starting next year.

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

 

The fishermen are only a minority,

and we all know what a minority represent for the majority.

 

A minority that could prove extremely costly for Macron's future prospects.

 

If they were so insignificant, why is the EU so insistent on continued access?

[JonnyF]

9 minutes ago, polpott said:

Hardly petty vindictiveness. They are sending a clear message to other states on the consequences of leaving. Basically, "you can't have your cake and eat it".

 

Cutting their nose off to spite their face? Each of the 27 EU states are cutting a small portion of their noses off, UK is lopping the lot off. Only one winner there.

 

Ah the old "instead of doing a mutually beneficial deal so neither of us suffers, let's have no deal because (arguably) you'll suffer more than us" argument.

 

How mature. How productive.????

[shackleton]

This Pantomime has gone on long enough about the UK threatening to leave with a No Deal if agreements are not met

Boris keeps giving way we will still be discussing the Deal next Year

As the bottom line is the UK will be worse off if no deal

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

A minority that could prove extremely costly for Macron's future prospects.

 

If they were so insignificant, why is the EU so insistent on continued access?

Politics, it is all about giving the base the illusion that something is done for them.

If the base is happy,

this will affect their vote.

But in fact this fishing thing is economical insignificant in the all package.

[Caldera]

Now that Trump is out of the picture, the EU can pretty much ask for whatever they want. In a month or two even Boris might realize how much his position has been weakened, luckily he has plenty of time.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Why did they join in the first place then?

The people were conned and lied. i thought anyone who comments on these Brexit threads would have known the scandal of ted Heath. if you don't whats the point of replying to any other your comments as clearly you haven't a foggiest idea what its all about.

 

Not to worry you have an army of foreigners on here who will fight your corner as they don't know either but love to tell us what to do and why, especially in the last few years since the UK left the EU..

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

This will only be significant, if the man in the street in Europe, will feel concretely the negative effects of the E.U. in his daily life.

I fear many have and do already. I speak with French people who say their country has been overrun with foreigners. the same with others in European countries and their identities taken away.

 

if they mention this they are branded racists.  It is too late in my opinion.

[ThomasThBKK]

21 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Politics, it is all about giving the base the illusion that something is done for them.

If the base is happy,

this will affect their vote.

But in fact this fishing thing is economical insignificant in the all package.

 

Yes the UK fishing industry, or at large the whole european fishing industry is really so irrelevant - it's like 0.1% of gdp or less.....

 

 

The real reason the UK fishing industry is so rekt is that when Brussels gave grants out in the 1980s to fishing communities they had to be matched by the governments - the british government didn't do <deleted> and left them to die, unlike all other european countries. 

 

Britain is truly the Thailand of Europe, it's always the others, whiny little <deleted> while acting like every other populist lying <deleted>. 

[polpott]

21 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I fear many have and do already. I speak with French people who say their country has been overrun with foreigners. the same with others in European countries and their identities taken away.

 

if they mention this they are branded racists.  It is too late in my opinion.

France's problem is with migrants from non EU countries, primarily North Africa. The UK's problem is the same. The laws affecting migration from non EU countries into a member state are not dictated by EU law. Leaving the EU will make diddly squat difference to the real problems with migrants that the UK faces. Since leaving the EU, there are now far more migrrants floating across the Channel. Expect that trend to continue as we detach ourselves even further from the EU.

[luckyluke]

15 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I fear many have and do already. I speak with French people who say their country has been overrun with foreigners. the same with others in European countries and their identities taken away.

 

if they mention this they are branded racists.  It is too late in my opinion.

There is of course free movement of people in Europe. 

Every country has since a long time been assailed by African and other "refugees". 

Each country has however the possibility to issue laws/regulations to make the life of these "refugees" less easy/confortable. 

No country has done it so far. 

It is not my impression that the majority of the man in the street blame the E.U. for this

"overruning", but more their own government to not take the necessary steps to control this situation. 

 

[JonnyF]

53 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Politics, it is all about giving the base the illusion that something is done for them.

If the base is happy,

this will affect their vote.

But in fact this fishing thing is economical insignificant in the all package.

 

Economically insignificant to the EU as a whole? Yes.

 

But politically it could be of massive significance to Macron. The 'one big happy family' myth is debunked pretty quickly when individual state's requirements are compromised in favour of another's. Many reports of tension between Merkel and Macron over this.

[polpott]

Just now, JonnyF said:

 

Economically insignificant to the EU as a whole? Yes.

 

But politically it could be of massive significance to Macron. The 'one big happy family' myth is debunked pretty quickly when individual state's requirements are compromised in favour of another's. Many reports of tension between Merkel and Macron over this.

France has created tension in the EU ever since its inception. Its due to their desire to be seen as superior to every other nation and deserve the lions share of any priveliges. This is born out of their innate inferiority complex regarding other EU nations. In reality, they're always second best at everything. Its the root of their hatred of the English. one "Hundred years War" and us bailing them out of the mire in 2 world wars has taught them that they are second best to the English. Its a cross they find very difficult to bear.

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Economically insignificant to the EU as a whole? Yes.

 

But politically it could be of massive significance to Macron. The 'one big happy family' myth is debunked pretty quickly when individual state's requirements are compromised in favour of another's. Many reports of tension between Merkel and Macron over this.

There are presidential elections in France in 2022.

Mr. Macron want to score, giving the impression to his base he cares. 

Of course tensions occur in a group of 27, the art is to have it under control. 

The U.K. consist only out of 4 indivifual countries, and it seems that it has tensions with one. 

Sure it will do all what it can/what is necessary, to have it under control. 

[Gandtee]

18 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Yes and the UK is taking exactly the same position....

regards worgeordie

And as the song goes 'We will never bow the knee.' We've been doing it too long with the EU.

[Proboscis]

13 hours ago, Tropicalevo said:

Of course they are. The EU has been milking the UK financially and depleting its fishing stocks for years. They are going to throw their rattle out of the pram until they get what they want.

The EU does not underestand the meaning of the word compromise. They are just arrogant politicians desperate to rape and pillage the UK because it has said that it wants to leave.

NB Had I been allowed to vote I would have voted to remain. So i am not a Brexiteer.

I too am a remainer but from a different EU country. We have always chaffed at the exceptionalism of the UK who imposed conditions on the EU that the rest of the then membership really did not want but felt they had to just to keep the UK on side. One of those conditions, a huge one, was the SIngle Market. There were many governments in the EU who were not delighted with this British invention - yes, it was the British that came up with this one, none other than Margaret Thatcher. And she pushed it until it became an integral part of EU membership. And while I never agreed with everything Thatcher did, not by a long chalk, this was a good one as it brought huge benefits to the EU.

 

The other condition that really bothered the rest of the EU members was the famous British Rebate. No other country gets that. Everyone else pays up according to the complex formula. But only the UK gets a rebate! Well, as a non-British EU citizen, you can imagine that I am not delighted with this. And one would have thought that the UK would never have left such a good deal with so much in their favour.

 

So wen you say that the EU has been milking the UK financially, I don't get it. The UK was always getting a better deal than anyone else in the EU. As regards fisheries, the UK is well-known for importing by far most of the fish that they actually consume and exporting by far most of the fish that they catch - to and from EU countries, by the way. If there is no deal, there will be tariffs on all the fish that are exported and so the EU will probably look for fish elsewhere. Retaliatory tariffs on imports of the kind of fish consumed by the British into the UK will mean the cost of fish will skyrocket.

 

No one is trying to "rape and pillage" anyone (to use your metaphor, or at least I think you take it as a metaphor!). 

[sammieuk1]

Who is going to turn the oven on in this ready deal and who will eat our fish as old father time meanders into view ????

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Proboscis said:

I too am a remainer but from a different EU country. We have always chaffed at the exceptionalism of the UK who imposed conditions on the EU that the rest of the then membership really did not want but felt they had to just to keep the UK on side. One of those conditions, a huge one, was the SIngle Market. There were many governments in the EU who were not delighted with this British invention - yes, it was the British that came up with this one, none other than Margaret Thatcher. And she pushed it until it became an integral part of EU membership. And while I never agreed with everything Thatcher did, not by a long chalk, this was a good one as it brought huge benefits to the EU.

 

The other condition that really bothered the rest of the EU members was the famous British Rebate. No other country gets that. Everyone else pays up according to the complex formula. But only the UK gets a rebate! Well, as a non-British EU citizen, you can imagine that I am not delighted with this. And one would have thought that the UK would never have left such a good deal with so much in their favour.

 

So wen you say that the EU has been milking the UK financially, I don't get it. The UK was always getting a better deal than anyone else in the EU. As regards fisheries, the UK is well-known for importing by far most of the fish that they actually consume and exporting by far most of the fish that they catch - to and from EU countries, by the way. If there is no deal, there will be tariffs on all the fish that are exported and so the EU will probably look for fish elsewhere. Retaliatory tariffs on imports of the kind of fish consumed by the British into the UK will mean the cost of fish will skyrocket.

 

No one is trying to "rape and pillage" anyone (to use your metaphor, or at least I think you take it as a metaphor!). 

There are many European countries that receive a rebate each year

The final deal includes annual discounts on the budget contributions — so-called rebates — of five countries: Germany (€3.671 billion per year); the Netherlands (€1.921 billion per year); Sweden (€1.069 billion per year); Austria (€565 million per year); and Denmark (€377 million per year). It also contains a range of customized gifts to different countries, including €200 million each for Belgium and Bulgaria and €1.6 billion for the Czech Republic.

https://www.politico.eu/article/politico-guide-to-the-eu-budget-deal-mff-2021-2027/

 

There are many TVF members that rent out properties both here in Thailand and elsewhere in the world

So then rent their property out for a 5 year period at the end of the 5 year period they decide they don't wish to rent their property any more.

They give notice to their existing tennant who accepts but then states that they wish to retain access to 82-85% of the property but they will generously allow you the owner between 15-18% access of your own property

The tennant doesn't  sound like they are being reasonable here

 

[Stupooey]

59 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

I too am a remainer but from a different EU country. We have always chaffed at the exceptionalism of the UK who imposed conditions on the EU that the rest of the then membership really did not want but felt they had to just to keep the UK on side. One of those conditions, a huge one, was the SIngle Market. There were many governments in the EU who were not delighted with this British invention - yes, it was the British that came up with this one, none other than Margaret Thatcher. And she pushed it until it became an integral part of EU membership. And while I never agreed with everything Thatcher did, not by a long chalk, this was a good one as it brought huge benefits to the EU.

 

The other condition that really bothered the rest of the EU members was the famous British Rebate. No other country gets that. Everyone else pays up according to the complex formula. But only the UK gets a rebate! Well, as a non-British EU citizen, you can imagine that I am not delighted with this. And one would have thought that the UK would never have left such a good deal with so much in their favour.

 

So wen you say that the EU has been milking the UK financially, I don't get it. The UK was always getting a better deal than anyone else in the EU. As regards fisheries, the UK is well-known for importing by far most of the fish that they actually consume and exporting by far most of the fish that they catch - to and from EU countries, by the way. If there is no deal, there will be tariffs on all the fish that are exported and so the EU will probably look for fish elsewhere. Retaliatory tariffs on imports of the kind of fish consumed by the British into the UK will mean the cost of fish will skyrocket.

 

No one is trying to "rape and pillage" anyone (to use your metaphor, or at least I think you take it as a metaphor!). 

Spot on with regards to the Single Market, and ironically a large majority of the British public would have liked to stay in it. We already know that the 48% who voted remain were in favour, but a sizeable number of leavers were as well, perhaps seduced by Farage's constant promotion of the 'Norway option' prior to the referendum. I have seen this number put as high as 60%, which would mean that about 80% of those who voted wanted to stay in, but of course the vote then got hijacked by the ERG and their vested interests, and so we end up with a potential outcome that very few want (although they won't admit it). So much for Democracy, which definitely does not mean 50%+1 of the vote equates to 100% of the spoils.

 

[polpott]

12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

There are many TVF members that rent out properties both here in Thailand and elsewhere in the world

So then rent their property out for a 5 year period at the end of the 5 year period they decide they don't wish to rent their property any more.

They give notice to their existing tennant who accepts but then states that they wish to retain access to 82-85% of the property but they will generously allow you the owner between 15-18% access of your own property

The tennant doesn't  sound like they are being reasonable here

This argument holds good if you apply the simple reality that UK is the tenant not the EU. We're leaving the EU, they're not leaving us.