Non-profit, shared ownership golf course - how much would you be ready to invest/pay?

[Big Joke]

On 12/6/2020 at 3:43 PM, scubascuba3 said:

I find it hard to believe a Crystal Bay, Mountain Shadow type course costs 40,000,000 baht a year to run. Rarely do you see green staff on any course, often the caddies get roped into weeding. Most courses bar a few aren't maintained well, I.e not weeded properly, bunkers not raked, grass not cut properly, no way 40m baht. No point comparing costs of Siam Country Club etc

The OP said a "championship" standard course. No way is Crystal bay or Mountain Shadow  in that league so their maintenance costs will be greatly reduced.

[Big Joke]

On 12/6/2020 at 4:09 PM, tgw said:

 

you assume wrong, I'm not a Brit! but thanks for indirectly complimenting my third language ????

 

thanks for the info about costs - where do these come from?

 

can you give some examples of B grade courses ?

 

a golf course available for 780 million doesn't make it worth 780 million. if you check the poll, you see there is a question about the membership buy-in cost which would be meant to cover initial costs.

1000 x 500.000 = 500 millions

600 x 1.000.000 = 600 millions

 

Plutaluang is a very playable course, even given its many imperfections - 10.000 baht a year for unlimited play is a ridiculously low price.

 

Costs. I come from a Thai family that are involved in golf from general manager to green keeper. (But not the Pattaya area)

The grading of courses in the Eastern Golf Management Association is an internal grading system to determine the range of green-fees, caddie fees and cart fees. So a none associated club has no rating. Easy to see the A grade.

[Big Joke]

2 hours ago, tgw said:

 

3 million from 1000 members?

3000 per member per year?

This can't be true? Your members must have paid per round fees + caddies

  Firstly I made a total mistake. I compared Navatanee members yearly subscriptions to my clubs TOTAL members revenue. For example at my club a member rents a cart that is members revenue.

Caddie fee is not club income. The yearly fees entitles a free green fee. So from 1000 members in 1995 who are officially still members today, but inactive, only 178 pay the yearly maintenance costs of 18000 baht to obtain the free green fee or a 10% discount in the restaurant. In 2000 the members income from 12,000baht yearly fees was 11million baht so around  900 members paid their dues.

[86Tiger]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:46 AM, scubascuba3 said:

That's the fear of people who haven't been members of a club, if you are a member of a good course it never gets boring as it's so difficult to beat. I'd prefer playing 1 course most times than constantly changing. The Green Valley guys seem to enjoy playing there several times a week plus nothing stopping you playing away sometimes

 

i have been member of private club several times through the years.  One of those I considered the perfect set up.  There were about 12 of my closest golf buddies and I all joined together under a membership drive.  The club was about 15 minutes from my office so could easily be there every day for practice and weekends our group would play all day Saturday and Sunday.  It was best period of time of my golfing life.  As years advanced the group began to dwindle for various reasons as life does go on outside golf.  Ultimately, I was the last of the original group.  I continued to use the course as home for practice during week for several additional years but gravitated to another playing group playing various other courses for weekends.

 

My lesson learned is for practice I don't need anyone else around.  But for leisure play the people I enjoy being with on a golf course is a very limited group.  Sure, I can play and enjoy with complete strangers, but it is not the same as having good friends you can joke and josh with.  There was post early in the thread that made mention there are always cliques forming, often times one never feels comfortable trying to "earn" their way in so it never feels right being an outsider at a club you are paying to be in.  And that is only natural, people enjoy most being around their good mates, if you all can be member of same club great.  But eventually you will gravitate to play where people you enjoy most are playing.  Unless of course you have never had mates.  Then all bets are off.....

[scubascuba3]

3 hours ago, 86Tiger said:

 

i have been member of private club several times through the years.  One of those I considered the perfect set up.  There were about 12 of my closest golf buddies and I all joined together under a membership drive.  The club was about 15 minutes from my office so could easily be there every day for practice and weekends our group would play all day Saturday and Sunday.  It was best period of time of my golfing life.  As years advanced the group began to dwindle for various reasons as life does go on outside golf.  Ultimately, I was the last of the original group.  I continued to use the course as home for practice during week for several additional years but gravitated to another playing group playing various other courses for weekends.

 

My lesson learned is for practice I don't need anyone else around.  But for leisure play the people I enjoy being with on a golf course is a very limited group.  Sure, I can play and enjoy with complete strangers, but it is not the same as having good friends you can joke and josh with.  There was post early in the thread that made mention there are always cliques forming, often times one never feels comfortable trying to "earn" their way in so it never feels right being an outsider at a club you are paying to be in.  And that is only natural, people enjoy most being around their good mates, if you all can be member of same club great.  But eventually you will gravitate to play where people you enjoy most are playing.  Unless of course you have never had mates.  Then all bets are off.....

I understand why people are apprehensive about letting people join their group, there are strange folk about and once you let them through the door it's harder to get them back out. My ex UK club had new member tee times and drink nights, a good way to meet and important if you join alone

[86Tiger]

22 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I understand why people are apprehensive about letting people join their group, there are strange folk about and once you let them through the door it's harder to get them back out. My ex UK club had new member tee times and drink nights, a good way to meet and important if you join alone

 

 

I would dearly love to be member with bunch of like minded guys out for fun and love of the game. But life tells us that is easier said than done.

 

 

[tgw]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:22 PM, Big Joke said:

The OP said a "championship" standard course. No way is Crystal bay or Mountain Shadow  in that league so their maintenance costs will be greatly reduced.

 

Maybe I should define better what I meant with "championship course", as this is vague term that sometimes means different things.

 

I mean a standard course that has about 5 different course lengths, from red tee to black tee, rated following international standards for each, with a normal layout, and that can be played in a normal way i.e. no quirks such as greens being too small, too hard or of impractical shape allowing for no legal flag positions, no biotopes in the middle of the fairway (hello Switzerland), no out of bounds that have been set just to make a hole more difficult, no roughs that can't be properly tended because of environmental concerns (hello Switzerland again), etc.

 

I would have to play Mountain Shadow or Crystal Bay to be sure, but as far as I remember, both courses were quite ok and I would consider them "championship courses".

 

 

[tgw]

On 12/14/2020 at 1:27 PM, Big Joke said:

  Firstly I made a total mistake. I compared Navatanee members yearly subscriptions to my clubs TOTAL members revenue. For example at my club a member rents a cart that is members revenue.

Caddie fee is not club income. The yearly fees entitles a free green fee. So from 1000 members in 1995 who are officially still members today, but inactive, only 178 pay the yearly maintenance costs of 18000 baht to obtain the free green fee or a 10% discount in the restaurant. In 2000 the members income from 12,000baht yearly fees was 11million baht so around  900 members paid their dues.

 

so that's a club with 178 paying members.

may I ask in which region it is located and the size and distance of the nearest larger city?

 

[tgw]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:38 PM, Big Joke said:

Costs. I come from a Thai family that are involved in golf from general manager to green keeper. (But not the Pattaya area)

The grading of courses in the Eastern Golf Management Association is an internal grading system to determine the range of green-fees, caddie fees and cart fees. So a none associated club has no rating. Easy to see the A grade.

 

lol, grading by cost of playing, 555

easy to be an A course.
Parichat at the moment isn't in a very good shape, they got sand on the greens, but it didn't stop them to set the price high, so that the upcoming TGA tournament costs 1700 baht for GF and caddie + an abusive 700 baht for the mandatory cart + caddie tip ... the big money grab.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

24 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

Maybe I should define better what I meant with "championship course", as this is vague term that sometimes means different things.

 

I mean a standard course that has about 5 different course lengths, from red tee to black tee, rated following international standards for each, with a normal layout, and that can be played in a normal way i.e. no quirks such as greens being too small, too hard or of impractical shape allowing for no legal flag positions, no biotopes in the middle of the fairway (hello Switzerland), no out of bounds that have been set just to make a hole more difficult, no roughs that can't be properly tended because of environmental concerns (hello Switzerland again), etc.

 

I would have to play Mountain Shadow or Crystal Bay to be sure, but as far as I remember, both courses were quite ok and I would consider them "championship courses".

 

 

The term "championship courses" often means stupid long even if it's to the detriment of enjoyment. Both Crystal Bay and Mountain Shadow are enjoyable courses, would both be successful members courses subject to checking if location made them OB. Certainly enjoyed playing them much more than the overrated Pattaya Country Club. My personal favourite under rated course is Pattavia but too far from Pattaya to be a popular members course

[Lacessit]

On 12/9/2020 at 1:46 PM, scubascuba3 said:

That's the fear of people who haven't been members of a club, if you are a member of a good course it never gets boring as it's so difficult to beat. I'd prefer playing 1 course most times than constantly changing. The Green Valley guys seem to enjoy playing there several times a week plus nothing stopping you playing away sometimes

Same as with the GF's, eh?

[Lacessit]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:29 PM, tgw said:

 

Then you have never experienced truly hard greens ????

I witnessed the progressive construction of a course about 30 years ago, and they too thought they could neglect making proper greens. Came the summer, any shot played onto the green bounced back into the air about 20 meters high, sometimes more, sometimes perfectly played shots bounced out of bounds, lol.

For the second shots, we were all trying to roll chips onto the green from 160 yards away, hoping for good bounces on the uneven fairways and uneven foregreens, it was absolutely horrible. 555

I used to be a caddie at Royal Melbourne, stimps were at the 12-13 mark. Truer greens have never existed. I have experienced greens in my 64 years of golf from hard to puddings on a number of continents, so you can knock off the patronising.

Of course, if you are going to play hard rocks of balls for distance, instead of high spin soft cover balls, you will get the result you describe.

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Same as with the GF's, eh?

haha, very different to a girlfriend 

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

haha, very different to a girlfriend 

Yeah, a round of golf takes 4 hours or more.

[tgw]

does anyone have figures on how many green fee players the courses around Pattaya did normally get, i.e. before COVID ?

[tgw]

could anyone forward me the details of Crystal Bay's and Mountain Shadow's management please?

[topt]

19 hours ago, tgw said:

could anyone forward me the details of Crystal Bay's and Mountain Shadow's management please?

I would ask either course for contact details for Tam. He seems to be involved with both courses and seems to be the in between the courses and the owners. Unfortunately I lost his number.

[scubascuba3]

Could also consider King Nagra, which used to be called Rayong country club, from memory was a nicely designed course just full of crab grass and poorly maintained, they ran out of money previously 

[topt]

11 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Could also consider King Nagra, which used to be called Rayong country club, from memory was a nicely designed course just full of crab grass and poorly maintained, they ran out of money previously 

Good layout but probably the worst changing/shower area in Thailand...........

They did up some of the blocks of accommodation they had on site about 2 years ago but I have not played there for well over a year.

[bkk6060]

14 minutes ago, topt said:

Good layout but probably the worst changing/shower area in Thailand...........

They did up some of the blocks of accommodation they had on site about 2 years ago but I have not played there for well over a year.

By the way it is King Naga not Nagra.

One of my buddies will only play there.

Tuesday and Thursday 850b. all in.  Yes, you are right the locker room is in disrepair.

And they built those hotel/condos expecting large groups of Koreans and Japanese, but it all never came together.

I never see more then a few groups when we play not sure how they are staying open.

Any new owner would have to renov. the clubhouse and course to get it up to the standards of many others.

It is the same crab grass type fairways, but overall it is an 18 hole course better then nothing.

[scubascuba3]

40 minutes ago, topt said:

Good layout but probably the worst changing/shower area in Thailand...........

They did up some of the blocks of accommodation they had on site about 2 years ago but I have not played there for well over a year.

Yes shower rooms are poor, I recall they used to hand you a small bar of soap on the way in, but no point trying to buy a course in great condition all round, you want a course on it's knees, making year on year losses

Edited January 3, 2021 by scubascuba3

[smylee52]

I found that I have lost my mojo for playing golf more than once a week but would cheerfully support a semi private club that used it's status to make caddies optional for daily play . No problem paying 1000 baht for green fee and 500 for buggy . 

Mountain Shadow would be my suggestion as a likely candidate for purchase . I am a variety hound like many but I could easily play Mountain Shadow on a regular basis due to it's length and challenging layout . 3 well laid out par 5's that could be improved  by leveling the fairways from 150 yards in so you don't have downhill lies for approach shots over water .  Taking down or severely trimming the tree at 16 that virtually blocks the green from the fairway would be a welcomed improvement as well . In short not much work required to get it up to snuff .  

 

 

 

[topt]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:01 PM, smylee52 said:

Taking down or severely trimming the tree at 16 that virtually blocks the green from the fairway would be a welcomed improvement as well .

It is such a short hole that i think that tree serves a good purpose. You need to consider a little more where to play your tee shot and with what club. Take the tree out and it becomes 3 wood/driver and a lob wedge.......

[keithsimmonds]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:25 PM, tgw said:

could anyone forward me the details of Crystal Bay's and Mountain Shadow's management please?

Kings Naga just closed until further notice.....over to you.

[tgw]

8 hours ago, keithsimmonds said:

Kings Naga just closed until further notice.....over to you.

 

King's Naga was never on the radar. it's just a PITA to drive to.

[keithsimmonds]

12 hours ago, tgw said:

 

King's Naga was never on the radar. it's just a PITA to drive to.

Okay just lets us know when a course to your liking becomes available then

[scubascuba3]

53 minutes ago, keithsimmonds said:

Okay just lets us know when a course to your liking becomes available then

I agree, the choice is King's Naga, Crystal Bay or Mountain Shadow. Maybe @tgw can approach King Naga and just suggest they offer green fee 400-600 baht, everything else optional and they will clean up

[keithsimmonds]

4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

I agree, the choice is King's Naga, Crystal Bay or Mountain Shadow. Maybe @tgw can approach King Naga and just suggest they offer green fee 400-600 baht, everything else optional and they will clean up

Don,t sell yourself short...400baht is good enough for Greenwood so 300baht is good enough for Naga..after all Plutaluang is 300baht ?

Caddie(fee/tip) which is optional 300baht excellent money for a max 5 hours  working walking or riding, when jobs in Patts are 250 to 300 for 12 hour shifts.   About time to be realistic no ones getting 75baht to the pound any more....wake up Thailand!!!

Cart price 200 baht for 9 holes 300 18 ?

18 holes all in including tip 900 baht.

 

Knock down one of those eyesore apartment blocks and put in a helicopter pad...for those who find the drive apita

[scubascuba3]

21 minutes ago, keithsimmonds said:

Don,t sell yourself short...400baht is good enough for Greenwood so 300baht is good enough for Naga..after all Plutaluang is 300baht ?

Caddie(fee/tip) which is optional 300baht excellent money for a max 5 hours  working walking or riding, when jobs in Patts are 250 to 300 for 12 hour shifts.   About time to be realistic no ones getting 75baht to the pound any more....wake up Thailand!!!

Cart price 200 baht for 9 holes 300 18 ?

18 holes all in including tip 900 baht.

 

Knock down one of those eyesore apartment blocks and put in a helicopter pad...for those who find the drive apita

The Sattahip 9 hole courses are 250/300 baht so 400 baht for a full size course is reasonable and an incentive for them to make money, they know that you'd save 700ish on caddy. I tried calling King Naga, no answer.... I emailed them to pass on my gold advice.... no response so far, probably too late for them

[keithsimmonds]

19 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

The Sattahip 9 hole courses are 250/300 baht so 400 baht for a full size course is reasonable and an incentive for them to make money, they know that you'd save 700ish on caddy. I tried calling King Naga, no answer.... I emailed them to pass on my gold advice.... no response so far, probably too late for them

There latest price on PSC said 800baht gf+c+c all day weekdays..i take that as though you could have played at least 36 holes for that price....and yet they were still forced into closing.

You could try Psc for any personnel phone numbers and contacts that they might have?