UK tells EU: back down by Sunday night or we'll walk

[Pattaya Spotter]

29 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

4 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Once the UK agreed to pay a £ 60B Brexit fee, they were toast.

 When did the UK agree to 60 billion? BS on that statement.

I believe the EU's original demand was about that amount...whatever the final amount, once May agreed to pay anything BEFORE having secured the exit terms, she lost all her leverage. The better sequence would have been to set the terms of trade, fishing, etc. first and then move on to the financial settlement. Bad exit terms...no to low financial payment.  

[Surelynot]

Just now, Pattaya Spotter said:

I believe the EU's original demand was about that amount...whatever the final amount, once May agreed to pay anything BEFORE having secured the exit terms, she lost all her leverage. The better sequence would have been to set the terms of trade, fishing, etc. first and then move on to the financial settlement. Bad exit terms...no to low financial payment.  

I think the UK was, again, the victim of being the small fry in this game.....they were told settle the financials before any negotiations could take place.....the were doomed from the start.

[CorpusChristie]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I believe the EU's original demand was about that amount...whatever the final amount, once May agreed to pay anything BEFORE having secured the exit terms, she lost all her leverage. The better sequence would have been to set the terms of trade, fishing, etc. first and then move on to the financial settlement. Bad exit terms...no to low financial payment.  

 

   Those payments were for contracts the UK had already signed , we were legally obliged to pay them 

[Pattaya Spotter]

56 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

I think the UK was, again, the victim of being the small fry in this game.....they were told settle the financials before any negotiations could take place.....the were doomed from the start.

I agree...that's why it was necessary for the UK to use any and all leverage they had to it's maximum extent. The one big club they had was if they would pay a "Brexit tax" and if so, how much. When they agreed to the EU's demand to fix the amount before the final terms of their exit from the EU were settled, the EU basically just ignored them.

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 hour ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   Those payments were for contracts the UK had already signed , we were legally obliged to pay them 

If they were legal contracts and the UK obliged to pay them, why was there the need to negotiate over them? The UK also provided extensive defence services to the EU over their decades of membership...they could have demanded billions in reimbursement for them (again more negotiation leverage they threw away). 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Pattaya Spotter

[wabothai]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:46 AM, vogie said:

We will eat pebbles and drink mud before we capitulate to the EU.

Bon appetit

[Hi from France]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:17 PM, vinny41 said:

In my book 40% for EU fishing  is better than nothing , Boris has already told the EU 25% is unacceptable

first @vinny41 we need to be careful with %; it's a hell more complicated : there are different locations, different species, the fact that fish population change and their location too makes it very complicated.

 

nonetheless what I understand is Barnier offered to return around 25 percent of the current EU fishing catch in British waters to the UK. While that was originally 15%.

 

It probably means the EU keeps the lion's share of the catches (like 75% ?), but even then the UK will be responsible for putting plenty of fishermen out of business.

 

• This will cause a lot of resentment against the UK. The same coastal communities are the ones who work day-to-day with English and Scottish fishermen.
• So the sons and families you ruin are the custom officers who will be responsible for the new border, they are the cops patrolling the beaches against immigrants, they are also the guys buying british fish and then selling it to the rest of the EU.

 

 

 

You do not need divining skill to know that some of these small fishermen "boats under ten meters" will be forced to come into british waters, were they will be met by british gunboats and we'll get another series of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars

 

so in the future there will be a lots of tensions and sanctions and counter sanctions. And the present deal will end in seven years;

 

So if the fish wars are avoided, in seven years this brexit circus will start all over again

 

 

What do you think?

 

.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Hi from France

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

first @vinny41 we need to be careful with %; it's a hell more complicated : there are different locations, different species, the fact that fish population change and their location too makes it very complicated.

 

nonetheless what I understand is Barnier offered to return around 25 percent of the current EU fishing catch in British waters to the UK. While that was originally 15%.

 

It probably means the EU keeps the lion's share of the catches (like 75% ?), but even then the UK will be responsible for putting plenty of fishermen out of business.

 

• This will cause a lot of resentment against the UK. The same coastal communities are the ones who work day-to-day with English and Scottish fishermen.
• So the sons and families you ruin are the custom officers who will be responsible for the new border, they are the cops patrolling the beaches against immigrants, they are also the guys buying british fish and then selling it to the rest of the EU.

 

 

 

You do not need divining skill to know that some of these small fishermen "boats under ten meters" will be forced to come into british waters, were they will be met by british gunboats and we'll get another series of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars

 

so in the future there will be a lots of tensions and sanctions and counter sanctions. And the present deal will end in seven years;

 

So if the fish wars are avoided, in seven years this brexit circus will start all over again

 

 

What do you think?

 

.

 

I think the number that the EU should be starting with is 5X to get an agreement with the UK

it would appear that the EU is not ready for Brexit, You would have thought that EU fisherman knowing for the past 4 years that you can't have the same access outside the EU club would have sought out alternative places to fish. France has the largest eez zone in the world.

Personally I favour sealed bids where both sides submit their best offer and if both offers are within a 10% margin they should continue talking if either of the sealed bids are more than 10% apart they should simply walk way

I think both Barnier and Frost are skilled negotiators so they both know the contents of both sealed bids without opening them

[Hi from France]

17 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 I agree with UNICEF giving food aid to those who are need in need, regardless of their origin. And I (still) don’t understand why anyone would agree that UK kids should get preferential access to food aid over African kids. 

I agree with you and remind everyone that we are in the lasts days to make donations for 2020 

[Hi from France]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I think the number that the EU should be starting with is 5X to get an agreement with the UK

it would appear that the EU is not ready for Brexit,

Fishermen are not any more brexit ready than the rest of industries, services and governments, we are days away and no one know where this is heading. Small businesses are in the worst situation

 

this is why I really hope there is a deal now and ... and a real transition phase.

 

transition means you know where you go. The present period is called "transition" but no one really knows where to, so this is just political speak.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You would have thought that EU fisherman knowing for the past 4 years that you can't have the same access outside the EU club would have sought out alternative places to fish.France has the largest eez zone in the world.

This is not possible, maybe for industrial fleets but the family fisherman won't sail to the Kerguelen Islands to fish his lobster or scallop.

 

Anyway France on its own could do fine, but I guess you know where Dutch and Belgian fishermen are going to fish if barred from fishing where the have been fishing for centuries. It will be either the british gunboats or the Bay of Biscay 

 

 

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Personally I favour sealed bids where both sides submit their best offer and if both offers are within a 10% margin they should continue talking if either of the sealed bids are more than 10% apart they should simply walk way

I think both Barnier and Frost are skilled negotiators so they both know the contents of both sealed bids without opening them

I do not know how they are negotiating in practice. If you have sources...

[vinny41]

37 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Fishermen are not any more brexit ready than the rest of industries, services and governments, we are days away and no one know where this is heading. Small businesses are in the worst situation

 

this is why I really hope there is a deal now and ... and a real transition phase.

 

transition means you know where you go. The present period is called "transition" but no one really knows where to, so this is just political speak.

 

 

 

This is not possible, maybe for industrial fleets but the family fisherman won't sail to the Kerguelen Islands to fish his lobster or scallop.

 

Anyway France on its own could do fine, but I guess you know where Dutch and Belgian fishermen are going to fish if barred from fishing where the have been fishing for centuries. It will be either the british gunboats or the Bay of Biscay 

 

 

I do not know how they are negotiating in practice. If you have sources...

I suspect that the message that EU fisherman and businesses have been given is nothing will change the UK has to make all the changes which is clearly incorrect.

Everything  I have read indicates the French fisherman say that can manage if French waters are restricted to French Fisherman only 

Personally I think the factory fishing trawlers should be banned from UK and EU waters

I don't know how they are negotiating I suspect they are not using sealed bids as both sides are so far apart

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Personally I think the factory fishing trawlers should be banned from UK and EU waters

Yeah, we forget fishing resources are over-exploited, fishes could end up being the big winners here...  ????

Edited December 21, 2020 by Hi from France

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Yeah, we forget fishing resources are over-exploited, fishes could end up being the big winners here...  ????

In the EU they are over-exploited, It would appear the EU doesn't follow its own laws

EU Fisheries Council fails to ensure sustainable exploitation of fish stocks

Despite deadlines in EU law and United Nations’ commitments to end overfishing by 2020, ministers failed to set fishing limits that would ensure all fish resources are exploited within sustainable levels.

https://www.eureporter.co/frontpage/2020/12/18/eu-fisheries-council-fails-to-ensure-sustainable-exploitation-of-fish-stocks/

[Hi from France]

14 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In the EU they are over-exploited, It would appear the EU doesn't follow its own laws

I'm not a specialist of fishing but that's likely the EU and indeed members countries conservation policy are not good enough. Fishing lobbies are very active.

 

eg You remember France had to take unilateral action to protect the scallops in the Bay of Seine

 

Then, ironically smaller french boats were barred from fishing on conservation grounds while big English scallopers boats were using their big fishing dredges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel_scallop_fishing_dispute

 

 

 

My view is that in the past the UK did not care much for fishing (and quite rightly so), developing instead its industries and banking thanks to the European market. The UK made huge profits out of it. 

 

 

Now everything you want to talk about is fishing ???? because the UK got an extended EEZ in the 80'

 

 

 

Of course the brits being brits, they find it normal to have full access to the EU banking industry of 27 countries while denying these 27 countries access to their fishing EEZ. 

 

 

 

 

 

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I'm not a specialist of fishing but that's likely the EU and indeed members countries conservation policy are not good enough. Fishing lobbies are very active.

 

eg You remember France had to take unilateral action to protect the scallops in the Bay of Seine

 

Then, ironically smaller french boats were barred from fishing on conservation grounds while big English scallopers boats were using their big fishing dredges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel_scallop_fishing_dispute

 

 

 

My view is that in the past the UK did not care much for fishing (and quite rightly so), developing instead its industries and banking thanks to the European market. The UK made huge profits out of it. 

 

 

Now everything you want to talk about is fishing ???? because the UK got an extended EEZ in the 80'

 

 

 

Of course the brits being brits, they find it normal to have full access to the EU banking industry of 27 countries while denying these 27 countries access to their fishing EEZ. 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I am aware the UK is not denying the EU countries access to the UK waters, but it should be for the UK to decided on the type of boats, number of boats, where those boats  can fish and how much fish they can catch and for how many years they can fish before having a review for further discussions.

Without having a sensible fishing management program in place soon there will be no fish like some of your EU neigbours where they have fished their waters to virtually extinction

[Hi from France]

16 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

As far as I am aware the UK is not denying the EU countries access to the UK waters, but it should be for the UK to decided on the type of boats, number of boats, where those boats  can fish and how much fish they can catch and for how many years they can fish before having a review for further discussions.

Without having a sensible fishing management program in place soon there will be no fish like some of your EU neighbors where they have fished their waters to virtually extinction

indeed

 

now the problem is the same in whomever waters : on one side you have the scientists who try to optimize the production rate, which means limiting fishing in the short term to gain in the medium term.. and then on the other side the fishermen who want to make the most money now no matter what.

 

add to that different countries, different fishing methods..

 

albeit imperfect the EU is a much better manager than the rest of the world, the Asian seas are ravaged by China https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/30/china-beijing-fishing-africa-north-korea-south-china-sea/

 

 

 

 

Back to Brexit, the UK wanting to go at it alone risks turning fishing in Europe in a lose-lose game: large schools of fish move anyway, so without coordination and a common conservation policy each country will grab what it can as soon as the fish enters his own zone, a classic example of prisoner's dilemma

[vinny41]

19 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

indeed

 

now the problem is the same in whomever waters : on one side you have the scientists who try to optimize the production rate, which means limiting fishing in the short term to gain in the medium term.. and then on the other side the fishermen who want to make the most money now no matter what.

 

add to that different countries, different fishing methods..

 

albeit imperfect the EU is a much better manager than the rest of the world, the Asian seas are ravaged by China https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/30/china-beijing-fishing-africa-north-korea-south-china-sea/

 

 

 

 

Back to Brexit, the UK wanting to go at it alone risks turning fishing in Europe in a lose-lose game: large schools of fish move anyway, so without coordination and a common conservation policy each country will grab what it can as soon as the fish enters his own zone, a classic example of prisoner's dilemma

As you have said yourself there is a very powerful fishing lobby in the EU, I think the best country to manage UK fishing waters and Uk fishing stock is the UK

[Hi from France]

43 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

As you have said yourself there is a very powerful fishing lobby in the EU, I think the best country to manage UK fishing waters and Uk fishing stock is the UK

That's why you are a Brexiteer!

 

I disagree : The best way to manage a common resource is to manage it together 

[vinny41]

17 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

That's why you are a Brexiteer!

 

I disagree : The best way to manage a common resource is to manage it together 

We will have to see if it was managed by both the UK and the EU it would have to be on a 52% UK 48% EU management basis

The United Kingdom has, as a sovereign country, an absolute and undisputed right to a 200 miles EEZ, or the median line, under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

Or the UK can follow UNCLOS advice or choose to ignored it

https://globalvisionuk.com/history-will-judge-brexit-on-how-the-fisheries-issue-is-settled/

[evadgib]

More Red Meat to keep the board busy overnight:

New trade barriers service launched to help British businesses export internationally

Key Paragraph:

Quote

“I am committed to doubling down on tackling trade barriers, so that we can add to the 175 barriers across 61 countries we have already removed and make it easier for our great British businesses to trade globally.”

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by evadgib

[bkkcanuck8]

13 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   Those payments were for contracts the UK had already signed , we were legally obliged to pay them 

I would not necessarily call them contracts, but they do include outstanding commitments as at the end of december 2020 (the annual amount tapers off up to 2024 then becomes nominal proportionally).  A not so insignificant portion of the settlement is for the accrued pension liabilities yet to be paid for EU staff employed (up to end of december 2020) [including UK citizens]. 

 

[candide]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

As you have said yourself there is a very powerful fishing lobby in the EU, I think the best country to manage UK fishing waters and Uk fishing stock is the UK

Most species which are not already dominantly under the UK quota are migrating between several national fishing waters. They are not UK fishing stock as they don't reside permanently in British waters. A national system to manage this stock would be clearly sub-optimal.

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

We will have to see if it was managed by both the UK and the EU it would have to be on a 52% UK 48% EU management basis

I do not care much about the details of the arrangement as long as they are an improvement over selfish idiocy ....and the EU has become expert at convoluted decision mechanisms

 

 

Quote

The United Kingdom has, as a sovereign country, an absolute and undisputed right to a 200 miles EEZ, or the median line, under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

Or the UK can follow UNCLOS advice or choose to ignored it

https://globalvisionuk.com/history-will-judge-brexit-on-how-the-fisheries-issue-is-settled/

again Brexiteers politicians keep on repeating this mantra that as if it was an issue.

 

this is not an issue, the EU keeps repeating that absolutely no one disputes the 200 miles EEZ. And France would never do such a thing .... for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

 

@vinny41 the only thing that surprises me in this mantra is how Britain went from "we are a world power" to repeating over and over "we are an independent coastal state".

 

 

The UK could me much a tad bit more ambitious: vying for the "independent coastal state" status is already acknowledging a serious decline don't you think?

 

.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Hi from France

[vinny41]

10 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I do not care much about the details of the arrangement as long as they are an improvement over selfish idiocy ....and the EU has become expert at convoluted decision mechanisms

 

 

again Brexiteers politicians keep on repeating this mantra that as if it was an issue.

 

this is not an issue, the EU keeps repeating that absolutely no one disputes the 200 miles EEZ. And France would never do such a thing .... for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

 

@vinny41 the only thing that surprises me in this mantra is how Britain went from "we are a world power" to repeating over and over "we are an independent coastal state".

 

 

The UK could me much a tad bit more ambitious: vying for the "independent coastal state" status is already acknowledging a serious decline don't you think?

 

.

Imagine if all the wine produced in France was held in UK bonded warehouses in France and the UK Government then dictated to the French people how much wine they are allowed to drink each year

I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to the people of France

In the same way the EU dictating to the British people how much fish they are allowed to fish in UK waters is clearly unacceptable

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Imagine if all the wine produced in France was held in UK bonded warehouses in France and the UK Government then dictated to the French people how much wine they are allowed to drink each year

I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to the people of France

In the same way the EU dictating to the British people how much fish they are allowed to fish in UK waters is clearly unacceptable

 

Yes. Clearly unacceptable. And the UK will never accept anything less than...uh oh

 

No 10 fishing offer to EU raises hopes of Brexit deal before Christmas

Downing Street has made a major counter-offer on fishing access for EU fleets in British waters to break the Brexit trade talks deadlock, raising hopes of a deal before Christmas.

After a difficult period of negotiations, with both sides seemingly entrenched, the UK’s chief Brexit negotiator, David Frost, is understood to have tabled a proposal that could unlock the troubled talks.

According to EU sources, the British demand for a 60% reduction in the catch by value in British waters had been reduced to 35%, far closer to the 25% reduction that Frost’s EU counterpart, Michel Barnier, had said he would be prepared to accept.

No 10 fishing offer to EU raises hopes of Brexit deal before Christmas | Brexit | The Guardian

[Laughing Gravy]

51 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Imagine if all the wine produced in France was held in UK bonded warehouses in France and the UK Government then dictated to the French people how much wine they are allowed to drink each year

I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to the people of France

All that wine could just about cover and be used for fish and chips. That is all it is good for anyway????

[Laughing Gravy]

9 hours ago, Hi from France said:

You do not need divining skill to know that some of these small fishermen "boats under ten meters" will be forced to come into british waters, were they will be met by british gunboats and we'll get another series of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars

Great news. Where do I sign up.

[Bruntoid]

8 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

All that wine could just about cover and be used for fish and chips. That is all it is good for anyway????

Problem with french wine now ? Some of the finest in the world ? 
 

I guess Tizer is more to the Sun readers taste ? 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Great news. Where do I sign up.

Look likes you may not have to. Just stick to scrutining the heavens for any signs of  the Luftwaffe.

Boris Johnson Makes Last-Ditch Push for Brexit Deal With Offer on Fish

 

Johnson Makes Last-Ditch Push for Brexit Deal With Fish Move - Bloomberg

[Bruntoid]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Look likes you may not have to. Just stick to scrutining the heavens for any signs of  the Luftwaffe.

Boris Johnson Makes Last-Ditch Push for Brexit Deal With Offer on Fish

 

Johnson Makes Last-Ditch Push for Brexit Deal With Fish Move - Bloomberg

Loiner will not be happy, some of his precious fish just given away !