Thailand Gets New Cyber Crime Law

[Phuket Dragon]

Regarding Ip adresses.

How they want go arround to find you on an IP address ?

99% of the Thai internet connections have not a fixed IP. If I look at my connection I have arround 100 different IP addresses from TOT, every time I login "supprise" I got a new IP address.

If you want a fixed IP adress I pay 8500 BHT with a speed of 256/128. No way to pay that sort of amount.

Im from the Netherlands and there have every body an fixed IP adres and pay 1500 BHT 20Mbps/4Mbps so you more easy to find.

[Kyosuken]

Hardly anything new in my book, i always thought the whole things was illegal anyway. I don't see that bill change anything though and the "arguements" are weaker than ever. Rapist will find ways to get to their prays as peadophiles still get what they want from Internet (eck i am pretty sure even on msn they can manage to find prays).

Censorship only lead to one thing : more underground mouvement, and more antilaw activities, but well mankind is stupid aint it, they never learn, it seems thought here more than anywhere else

Edit: About tracing IP, it's easier than ever don't be fooled by the always changing IPs, it's logged anyway : time/date and account name, plus for ToT for example your phone number is tied to your account, isn't it handy to e caught ?

The only thing very hard to proove is when you get IP spoofed, but then again at isp level it's pretty easy to know the flow of data (at least unencrypted) that went from a client (ie your IP).

Question is, knowing the high comptent way of dealing with computing engineering from these companies, do they keep log for a long time (because any "serious" investigations don't need 1 proof of suspect activities but loads of them) or not ? If yes then anything is possible, if not well they are screwed beyond recognition (because they will get loads of false positive unless they "make proof" where there aren't any).

Edited May 10, 2007 by Kyosuken

[Crow Boy]

All together now - "one step forward three steps back, one step forward three steps back"

rumors say "we got another year of INTERNET USE, then no more". It is the only way for the country to regain a cultural control from foreigner influence. Expect an overall ban on all foregneir websites.

On what are you basing that statement? Unsubstantiated rumour is dangerous and a waste of time.

A side issue this will be for those of us that get our access to the Net from our place of work. If one of our staff broke the law by using a proxy to access a banned site it could have serious consequences to the company.

This is a worrying trend

CB

[Crow Boy]

We have 570 users including george, reading this thread right now. Maybe soon he will post up an explanation of TVs position re postings deemed unacceptable or bringing Thailand into disrepute.

look forward to reading it

CB

Edited May 10, 2007 by Crow Boy

[stumonster]

"The bill regards as a crime the intention to withhold internet protocol (IP) addresses"

that would mean that using proxies to access banned sites is now illegal.

if you always use a proxy - how will you know a site is illegal to access from thailand ?

and what about https proxies , VPN's ?

China is light years ahead of Thailand in its attempts to control net access to their citizens , both technically and through propaganda and they still cannot do it to their satisfaction - The Thai IT minister needs to be put into a job where he understands what he is doing - some one hand the man a broom.

[ChiangMaiMike]

FYI: from the Wikipedia article mentioned on page 2:

Significant efforts have been made in Thailand to oppose sites that are representing illegal activities. Activities such as gambling, drug usage and pornography are strictly banned, using DNS control in Thailand and, more effectively, a transparent proxy. This makes the website appear to be inaccessible. Also, the government has banned sites that discuss circumventing Internet censorship.

?? So are there any forums on Thai Visa on how to circumvent censorship... or is that "self censored"..??

[george]

We have 570 users including george, reading this thread right now. Maybe soon he will post up an explanation of TVs position re postings deemed unacceptable or bringing Thailand into disrepute.

look forward to reading it

CB

Our legal team is looking into this issue. We will make a statement hopefully next week.

No worries, I guess we have a few options....

[TopDogger]

How will they know if someone is using a proxy? Is it really that easy for them to find out?

Yes, and the way certain ISP's are configured its also easy to track which sites people are trying to access with these proxys

[yeti]

FYI: from the Wikipedia article mentioned on page 2:

Significant efforts have been made in Thailand to oppose sites that are representing illegal activities. Activities such as gambling, drug usage and pornography are strictly banned, using DNS control in Thailand and, more effectively, a transparent proxy. This makes the website appear to be inaccessible. Also, the government has banned sites that discuss circumventing Internet censorship.

?? So are there any forums on Thai Visa on how to circumvent censorship... or is that "self censored"..??

That's officially censored, have a look at the rules.

[TopDogger]

Regarding Ip adresses.

How they want go arround to find you on an IP address ?

99% of the Thai internet connections have not a fixed IP. If I look at my connection I have arround 100 different IP addresses from TOT, every time I login "supprise" I got a new IP address.

If you want a fixed IP adress I pay 8500 BHT with a speed of 256/128. No way to pay that sort of amount.

Im from the Netherlands and there have every body an fixed IP adres and pay 1500 BHT 20Mbps/4Mbps so you more easy to find.

And every time u sit on an airplane your in a different seat, it doesnt mean the airline itself doesnt have an exact record of where each and every customer is sitting.

[rychrde]

"The bill regards as a crime the intention to withhold internet protocol (IP) addresses"

that would mean that using proxies to access banned sites is now illegal.

Get your own proxy server. And add a cheap website... that you obviously need to admin every day ... Even better, make it a staunchly pro-thai site.

I know, a little bit expensive and time-consuming, but may now be worth it.

rych

[Crow Boy]

We have 570 users including george, reading this thread right now. Maybe soon he will post up an explanation of TVs position re postings deemed unacceptable or bringing Thailand into disrepute.

look forward to reading it

CB

Our legal team is looking into this issue. We will make a statement hopefully next week.

No worries, I guess we have a few options....

Thanks very much for the reply George - this is very important to all of us. At work we are having legal advice on our options because we have staff access to the internet. The GMDs intitial and preferred option is to ban all access except for a very limited number of people and that the IT dept track and log all sites accessed to be passed up to management for review. It will be a nightmare if that is the option used - for a start access to Thai Visa will be banned.

CB

[dude007]

further consolidation of severe censorship!

Bah, junta! So afraid of some critics?

[John1012]

I sometimes wonder if those in power in Thailand realise that they live in a GLOBAL economy, with it's own rules for success and survival.Protect their people from what? Corruption ? Crime? Drugs? TRUTH? If the rulers of Thailand are not very careful, they will find themselves in a similar situation to Burma, isolated and only visited by tourists. Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam will become the dynamo's of this part of the world and Thailand will become a quaint tourist attraction.The main problems with this soon to be 'Third World Country' , is endemic CORRUPTION , a medieval ruling class and blantant racism. We the Farang have to live with this, we get by, albeit sometimes angrily.The ruling class is frightened of real democracy, where the poor can elect a government that is not made up of the 'elite', even a corrupt democracy is better than no democracy, (at least there is a chance of change). There have been NO major corruption charges made against anyone, I have not even read about minor ones., If the same people who are responsible for cleaning up the country are responsible for internet policing then hooray, no action. Can you see any country in the world where there is a modicum of democratic government acceding to those temporarily in power in Bangkok requesting information of internet users that publish the real truth about Thailand? Perhaps it would be better if these ICT functionaries,( labels on Elbow & Arse, just in case) employ some real IT professionals, from expat Thais or another country, to run their internet, increase their thru put, re model TOT & CAT., and whilst they are about it to employ REAL civil engineers, that don't need their dignity protected, to deliver properly built roads and airports.

[KireB]

Dear God, what is this country coming to?

So now when if I use one of those "ways of circumventing censorship" to view a site that they feel is unsuitable for me, i'm to expect a knock-knock on the door from the old dam ruad? Unbelievable!

I can't seriously imagine though how they intend to police this thing. There must be thousands if not millions of internet users in this country that use pr*xies to access banned sites; do they really have the technology infrastructure and the manpower to bring all those offenders to justice?

I am sure they'll use a couple of evil foreigners to set an example!

[andy1308]

We have 570 users including george, reading this thread right now. Maybe soon he will post up an explanation of TVs position re postings deemed unacceptable or bringing Thailand into disrepute.

look forward to reading it

CB

Our legal team is looking into this issue. We will make a statement hopefully next week.

No worries, I guess we have a few options....

Thanks very much for the reply George - this is very important to all of us. At work we are having legal advice on our options because we have staff access to the internet. The GMDs intitial and preferred option is to ban all access except for a very limited number of people and that the IT dept track and log all sites accessed to be passed up to management for review. It will be a nightmare if that is the option used - for a start access to Thai Visa will be banned.

CB

CB - I hope you'll keep us informed because this affects everyone in business in Thailand, or has the potential to at the very least. I'm getting legal advice too and will let you know what we're told.

[aznyron]

if a poster on thai visa posted comments about the government that were less than complimentary

and deemed to be defamatory , and the cyber police came knocking on georges door asking for the identity of the poster , what is the thai visa policy regarding this ?

would thai visa divulge the ip address of the poster ? ..... what is international law on this matter ?

From the Forum Rules:

We respects the privacy of all our visitors, members and clients. Any known information is kept strictly confidential. No information is ever sold or knowingly given out to any third party.

OK, but what if you were threatened with legal action?

Maybe T'land can become the censorship hub of SE Asia next

well if thailand want to deport me because I wrote some thing on the internet that they found as deflammatory then by all means do me a great big favor thailand DEPORT ME since I will not bow to censorship laws from any country Thaivisa feel free to give them my name and address I am sick of there bull shit and there in flatted baht I came here to relax and enjoy my last few years of life but it seems to be getting imposible for us senior citizens to enjoy life here now

[h90]

if a poster on thai visa posted comments about the government that were less than complimentary

and deemed to be defamatory , and the cyber police came knocking on georges door asking for the identity of the poster , what is the thai visa policy regarding this ?

would thai visa divulge the ip address of the poster ? ..... what is international law on this matter ?

From the Forum Rules:

We respects the privacy of all our visitors, members and clients. Any known information is kept strictly confidential. No information is ever sold or knowingly given out to any third party.

The only save way is to turn off the log files/deleted them frequently than no court can demand them.... Else you simply can't keep it confidential. If the men black/brown come you'll give the date no other choices....

[ThaiLover1]

Can someone please tell me this new Thailand law is another weird April 1st joke? --

I suspect not...

But seriously - regardless if this law will be enforced or not - has George given some thought to how he will respond when a Thailand court orders him to release private registration information about a member on ThaiVisa.com site? --

It is one thing for George (ThaiVisa.com) to be threatened with legal action, but it something else when a court of Thailand "orders" George to release private information - or else be in contempt of court.

I am not a lawyer, but I know that that being in contempt of court is not a good thing. In fact, you can end up being arrested and serving jail time for being in contempt of court.

Would George be a martyr and go to jail to protect the private information about members on this site!? Come on - I think George is more practical than that.

My guess is George will buckle and release confidential member information to the court when ordered by a Thailand court to do so. My guess he is a law-abiding man and will follow the law of the land (Thailand).

I would be interested to know what George thinks about this question.

The answer from George could affect all of us on this board, although we are just nice guys trying to get along and post nice comments about the leaders of Thailand -- right?

Edited May 10, 2007 by ThaiLover1

[deminister]

I think that the name Toxin has been cleared, the toxic part is coming from Sonthi. In the end even the Nation realizes that he adheres to double standards. That the military are insincere. This is not a cybercrime law but an attempt to stiffle the opposition. A very few people calling themselves the elite, had no trouble mulling the voice of the majority.

<snip>

It is all so much better now, TV stations have been slapped with absurd fines of a billion dollar, nobody is reporting seriously about Sonthi's Muslim friends in the South., It is much quieter in the South, divisions between people have healed, (75% simply are not allowed to speak up anymore) and all the corrrupt people from the Thaksin area have been punished, As far as they are not yet punished they have to be afraid because after 8 months of looking we have just extended the mandate to look even better.! The new constitution guarantees a fuyll pardon for the criminals. I understand that free speech is now a cybercrime.

I really thought it was only Toxins TRT party that came out with this anti internet crap. I can see they created the monster and the junta folk just want to make it grow and grow!

They obviously now know the ways and means to get around their oppressive laws, but can they detect and trace to the source of IP routing, its hard, even for the ISPs to detect. So I say bring it on!

Edited May 10, 2007 by Jai Dee
Comments about how to bypass government blocked websites deleted.

[Jai Dee]

?? So are there any forums on Thai Visa on how to circumvent censorship... or is that "self censored"..??

From the Forum Rules:

We do not allow discussions of proxies or other methods of bypassing government blocking of websites.

[rychrde]

Just to put this also into perspective, the wiki article likes to list the usual suspects. These are generally authoritarian regimes who are too weak outside their borders and so try to restrict access to the internet to their own people. But the article is less than truthful about how the USA patrols this issue. The US elite know that banning access is a public sledgehammer that would merely reveal how fragile their glorious democracy is. Instead the US goes after the actual website owners it does not like, irrespective of which jurisdiction said owners are in, and especially if there is money they can raid. US internet policy is exactly the same as their foreign policy - they do whatever they like until someone will stop them. Unfortunately, that 'someone' is more than likely China, who however, is more than happy to join the US in this policy.

And as always in human history, restricting something to the general public merely hands it over to organised criminals.... always.

Those who need to keep their noses clean, like TV, are the ones that suffer.

For many others however, red rag to a bull springs to mind.

rych

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If this continues, we may all have to start resorting to Cockney rhyme-slang in our forum communications.

We'd best hit the rubbidy and have a few pigs while we sort this

[Meerkat]

Lord knows why Thaksin felt the need to hire a PR company in the US to ridicule the junta. These guys would appear to be doing a sterling job all on their own...

[Acharn]

The only save way is to turn off the log files/deleted them frequently than no court can demand them.... Else you simply can't keep it confidential. If the men black/brown come you'll give the date no other choices....

Then the question becomes, "What does the law require of ISPs as regards retaining logs?" I know that in U.S. and Europe there are legal requirements for ISPs to retain certain information in their log files for specified lengths of time -- somewhere from two to five years!

This law is just another obstacle to Thailand entering the twentieth century, and people in the IT sector pointed out its shortcomings but were snowed under by the ultra-nationalists. You have to understand that the groups behind the coup and behind the junta were angry because they were losing power under Thaksin and are trying to find ways to prevent that from happening again. In the long run it won't work, but it can make life uncomfortable for a while.

[Old Man River]

Any unpopular policies by the current government can be expected to be reversed shortly after Thailand has a freely elected government.

The current government is not passing laws based on ill intent. They really think this is the way to go to protect the average Thai person. However, once the average person can speak for themselves via their votes, such laws will change.

[marquess]

If in 100 years time there is still the distinction of 1st world and 3rd World Countries, this country will be firmly in the 3rd world. At the moment they (the gov) seem to be doing their best to take things back to the dark ages, and I wish it was joke!

[Tony Clifton]

I may be getting some ''brownie'' points by posting this picture.

[Mid]

[Prakanong]

Any unpopular policies by the current government can be expected to be reversed shortly after Thailand has a freely elected government.

The current government is not passing laws based on ill intent. They really think this is the way to go to protect the average Thai person. However, once the average person can speak for themselves via their votes, such laws will change.

Until the next time the Junta steps in to remove a democratically elected person they think is gaining more power than them or their backers.

Its pretty cyclical in Thailand is this ;-))