U.S. counterterrorism prosecutors probing Trump supporters' storming of Capitol

[onthedarkside]

Follow-up news report:

 

 

[Virt]

As each day passes by, new names are added to the list.

Just read olympic goldmedalist Klete Keller also entered the capitol, but didn't seem to be violent though.

 

How are they supposed to punish the violent protesters vs those not using violence.

Are they going to prosecute everyone that entered that building, or just those that they can prove used violence?

 

What is a fair solution?

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Virt said:

As each day passes by, new names are added to the list.

Just read olympic goldmedalist Klete Keller also entered the capitol, but didn't seem to be violent though.

 

How are they supposed to punish the violent protesters vs those not using violence.

Are they going to prosecute everyone that entered that building, or just those that they can prove used violence?

 

What is a fair solution?

Well, it wasn't just any building was it? And it wasn't just a time chosen at random, either? They were interfering with a vital function mandated by the Constitution. They should all face charges.

[Virt]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Well, it wasn't just any building was it? And it wasn't just a time chosen at random, either? They were interfering with a vital function mandated by the Constitution. They should all face charges.

Yeah that's what I would do too and give fines if non violent and jail if violent, but it's not going to be an easy task. 

 

They also have to find out what to do with those outside. 

 

I was just curious to see what people here thought would be a fair punishment. 

[Jeffr2]

20 minutes ago, Virt said:

As each day passes by, new names are added to the list.

Just read olympic goldmedalist Klete Keller also entered the capitol, but didn't seem to be violent though.

 

How are they supposed to punish the violent protesters vs those not using violence.

Are they going to prosecute everyone that entered that building, or just those that they can prove used violence?

 

What is a fair solution?

From what I've read, if you engaged in hand to hand combat with the police, you're potentially in jail for 20 years.  If you illegally entered the building, you're still in very deep doo doo.  They are not going to let those who entered get away with no charges.  From what I've read, but as we know, things are developing fast here.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Virt said:

Yeah that's what I would do too and give fines if non violent and jail if violent, but it's not going to be an easy task. 

 

They also have to find out what to do with those outside. 

 

I was just curious to see what people here thought would be a fair punishment. 

I don't think a fine is sufficient punishment given the gravity of the crime. Not a case of ordinary trespass. I do genuinely feel sorry for these deluded people. As I've pointed out elsewhere, many are believers in Qanon and thought their invasion of the Capitol would precipitate THE STORM. Trump could have scotched this nonsense simply by saying that it was nonsense. Instead he humored them and even retweeted some of their tweets. Michael Flynn is actually selling Qanon paraphernalia on his website. Clearly they helped lead these people on. Still, the rioters are adults. They didn't have to do this.

[mikebike]

21 hours ago, Jonnapat said:

One of the sadder aspects of this whole sorry saga is that police officers are now under investigation for possible aiding and abetting in the crime.

Why is that sad? Seems like a positive if true. It's not as though police depts haven't given cover to far right members in the past.

[cmarshall]

On 1/12/2021 at 8:46 PM, Hanaguma said:

Didn't look like much of an insurrection to me. No plan, no actual desire to overthrow the government.  Just a bunch of yahoos who got caught up in the idiocy of the moment.  For the ones who actually broke in and damaged/destroyed property, throw the book at them. From the footage I saw, the vast majority were just milling around like a group of tourists. Taking selfies and looking a little shocked that it was so easy to access the Capitol building itself. 

 

Compared to a typical evening in Portland or Seattle, it was positively sedate.

It wasn't a good plan, but it still might have worked.  Those of the puschists who were focused might have got into either the Senate or House chambers.  Had that happened it seems very possible that they would have killed some of the legislators or Pence.  Had that happened Trump would have declared martial law and from that point all bets are off.

 

Trump was never capable of planning anything much less a coup d'etat against the US govt, but he and his cronies did manage to insure that the Congress had only the minimal protection of the Capitol police (a maximum of 2000 men and the only security force under the control of the Legislative Branch) for hours.  It might have worked.

 

From another point of view had the Republicans had seven or eight more seats in the House they could have rejected the electoral votes from some of the states Biden won reducing his EV count below the required 270.  Then the House of Representatives would have elected the president with one vote per state, i.e. Trump would have been reelected.

 

So, it was close.  

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

It wasn't a good plan, but it still might have worked.  Those of the puschists who were focused might have got into either the Senate or House chambers.  Had that happened it seems very possible that they would have killed some of the legislators or Pence.  Had that happened Trump would have declared martial law and from that point all bets are off.

 

Trump was never capable of planning anything much less a coup d'etat against the US govt, but he and his cronies did manage to insure that the Congress had only the minimal protection of the Capitol police (a maximum of 2000 men and the only security force under the control of the Legislative Branch) for hours.  It might have worked.

 

From another point of view had the Republicans had seven or eight more seats in the House they could have rejected the electoral votes from some of the states Biden won reducing his EV count below the required 270.  Then the House of Representatives would have elected the president with one vote per state, i.e. Trump would have been reelected.

 

So, it was close.  

I agree. It could have potentially succeeded in overturning the democratic results of the election which would have meant the crowning of Mr. trump as an authoritarian dictator. The odds weren't high but it was definitely possible. In that sense it was a terrorist attack on American democracy. Some scholars are calling it an attempt at a self-coup but whatever we call it, the world saw what happened.

 

Another detail worth considering. What if the invading terrorists had succeeded in stealing the official certified electoral results of all the states from it's special box? That isn't written into the constitution. Getting the states to do that again could have meant some states would have reverted to partisan infighting to reverse the results and also time delays so that inauguration of Joe Biden couldn't happen as it must happen under the constitution on January 20.

 

In any case, to preserve the integrity of American democracy, all the criminals involved in planning for, inciting, and carrying out this attack must be fully prosecuted (and of course the current president impeached again). 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Keeping it real. 

Soldiers (national guard) are now using the U.S. Capitol as their barracks for the first time since the civil war. 

We can thank mr. Trump's private militias (Proud Boys and many other assorted radical right wing extremist flotsam and jetsam) for yet another darkly historic occurrence. 

[Salerno]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What if the invading terrorists had succeeded in stealing the official certified electoral results of all the states from it's special box?

 

There's secure copies.

[Credo]

There are some indications that the incursion was pre-planned.  It's going to take some time to ferret out who and what happened, but there are indications they had some command and control.   Even if it wasn't well-planned, evidence of pre-planning is serious.   

 

[Credo]

15 minutes ago, Salerno said:

 

There's secure copies.

There may be secure copies, but you can be assured that it would have only fueled more lies and speculation about ballot tampering.  

 

[shdmn]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

There are some indications that the incursion was pre-planned.  It's going to take some time to ferret out who and what happened, but there are indications they had some command and control.   Even if it wasn't well-planned, evidence of pre-planning is serious.  

 

I'm wondering if that is what they are investigating Don Jr. for?  There seems to be some buzz about that but no public statements yet.

Edited January 13, 2021 by shdmn

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Salerno said:

 

There's secure copies.

Really? Do you have a source for that?

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Credo said:

There are some indications that the incursion was pre-planned.  It's going to take some time to ferret out who and what happened, but there are indications they had some command and control.   Even if it wasn't well-planned, evidence of pre-planning is serious.   

 

Yes three congressmen have been named as helping with logistics on locations. They deny it of course.

[Salerno]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Really? Do you have a source for that?

 

Read it recently in a "what could have happened" article. Let me see if I can track it down again.

[Jingthing]

8 hours ago, Virt said:

As each day passes by, new names are added to the list.

Just read olympic goldmedalist Klete Keller also entered the capitol, but didn't seem to be violent though.

 

How are they supposed to punish the violent protesters vs those not using violence.

Are they going to prosecute everyone that entered that building, or just those that they can prove used violence?

 

What is a fair solution?

You're over thinking this. Different charges for different people depending on the evidence. Of course everyone charged has a right to defend herself. You know.  Rule of law. Normality. 

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, shdmn said:

I'm wondering if that is what they are investigating Don Jr. for?  There seems to be some buzz about that but no public statements yet.

Don Jr is almost definitely going to be pardoned by Daddy. On the other hand I doubt this will help his political ambitions.

[Salerno]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Really? Do you have a source for that?

 

Sorry, have read so many articles can't find the specific one I was thinking of but from an explanation of how it works written for us Antipodeans back in December:

 

Quote

The votes for president and vice-president are counted and the electors sign six "Certificates of the Vote".

Each certificate is paired with a certificate from the governor detailing the state's vote totals, with each pair then sent to various officials.

The most important copy is sent to the current President of the Senate — Vice-President Mike Pence. This is the copy that will be officially counted later.

Two copies go to the secretary of state in the elector's state, two are sent to the Archivist of the United States, and one is sent to the federal judge in the district where the electors have assembled.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-14/us-electoral-college-vote-joe-biden-donald-trump-president/12969538

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Salerno

[shdmn]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Don Jr is almost definitely going to be pardoned by Daddy. On the other hand I doubt this will help his political ambitions.

I don't think you can be pardoned for sedition.

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, shdmn said:

I don't think you can be pardoned for sedition.

I think you're wrong but I hope you're right. 

[watthong]

One characteristic of a Trumper (I'm using this word at the risk of getting my account suspended, as it has happened under similar circumstance when I called them the "Trumpettes") is the uncanny ease, second-nature almost with which they pivot from fact to counterfact that seem to have channeled down to them in their sleep from Mt. Sinai. Yeah, this is not sedition, not a coup, blahblahblah. On the other hand, the argument about "what if this were a BLM bunch of rioters..." that keeps popping up only helps to mask the true nature of what amounted to a coup d'etat happening in reverse (from inside out.) BLM is about race, this one is about sedition. It's comparing apples to oranges and it's the kind of deflection that has served Trump well. If this mob were all blacks, Trump would have embraced them as well a la "I love the uneducated." Unfortunately for him the black mob got together and kicked all the GOP off their seats, Trump included so he couldn't corral them the way he did with the "uneducated" (white) mob.

 

NJ Rep. Mikie Sherrill just posted a facebook video in which she draws a line against the insurgent side, in the process she denounced the congressmen who had given "recon" tours to the would be insurgents the day before (Jan 05). Earlier on I posted a link (quickly taken down by mod) to a Michael Moore podcast in which Rep Dan Kildee of Michigan also mentioned that on that day he saw a number of congressmen ("new and existing") giving tour inside the Capitol to some of the "red hats." Some of his colleagues witnessed the same incident and were concerned to the point of telling their staff not to come to work on Wednesday. 

[Jingthing]

9 hours ago, watthong said:

One characteristic of a Trumper
... 

 

TRUMPER (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

 

The evolution of words describing the fans of Mr. trump and his movement has interested me for a long time.

A number of these words are very widely used in speech and media and have already appeared in dictionaries but I think their future is in flux.

In other words, which of the many of them will become more dominant leaving the others to obscurity? 

There are also scads of more slang type words that serve similar functions that have also been widely used in the press. Such as "trumpy" as an adjective, for example to describe another politician, policy, or even style of dress, etc.

From my POV, it's normal and natural for language to evolve in this way. While I often use the phrase trump fans or the trump movement to serve these functions, one word would be much better.  Mr. trump, horrible as he has proven to be, is still without a doubt an extremely consequential president and the movement he has represented has become a major force in both American and world politics. Another example of this kind of thing is Peron of Argentina. To this day politicians there are still described as Peronist. 

 

TRUMPIST (adjective) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

 

TRUMPISM (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Jingthing

[Opl]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

TRUMPER (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

 

The evolution of words describing the fans of Mr. trump and his movement has interested me for a long time.

A number of these words are very widely used in speech and media and have already appeared in dictionaries but I think their future is in flux.

In other words, which of the many of them will become more dominant leaving the others to obscurity? 

There are also scads of more slang type words that serve similar functions that have also been widely used in the press. Such as "trumpy" as an adjective, for example to describe another politician, policy, or even style of dress, etc.

From my POV, it's normal and natural for language to evolve in this way. While I often use the phrase trump fans or the trump movement to serve these functions, one word would be much better.  Mr. trump, horrible as he has proven to be, is still without a doubt an extremely consequential president and the movement he has represented has become a major force in both American and world politics. Another example of this kind of thing is Peron of Argentina. To this day politicians there are still described as Peronist. 

 

TRUMPIST (adjective) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

 

TRUMPISM (noun) definition and synonyms | Macmillan Dictionary

 

+ "Trumpesque" or "Trump-esque"

Trumpesque rowdy diplomacy? (iol.co.za)

Far-right president Bolsonaro puts Trump-esque stamp on Brazil in first week - Hold na Mídia - Hold (holdassessoria.com.br)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Opl

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

+ "Trumpesque" 

Trumpesque rowdy diplomacy? (iol.co.za)

There are scads of such new words. However, from my reading, Trumpist has become the most dominant. 

[heybruce]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There are scads of such new words. However, from my reading, Trumpist has become the most dominant. 

I was using Trumpets until it I was warned off by the moderator.

[Opl]

Trump name has become a banner 

House Republicans Fear Trump Terrorists Will Kill Them If They Vote To Impeach (politicususa.com)

[placeholder]

Another surprise coming from Trump:

Scoop: Trump falsely blames Antifa for Capitol insurrection

Behind the scenes: In a tense, 30-minute-plus phone call this morning with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, Trump trotted out the Antifa line.

• McCarthy would have none of it, telling the president: "It's not Antifa, it's MAGA. I know. I was there," according to a White House official and another source familiar with the call.

https://www.axios.com/trump-falsely-blames-antifa-for-capitol-riot-bab4943c-d465-4d05-ae36-1e8d1437f168.html

 

OK, maybe not such a big surprise.

[Scott]

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