11 minutes ago, vogie said:

But without Sturgeon I think it would be an uphill struggle.

I don't know if you have seen this sworn affidavit from Craig Murray, but if only a tenth of it is true it will be enough (or should be) to remove Sturgeon.

 

17. It had been impossible to follow the judicial review case without concluding that a very unfair process had been undertaken against Alex Salmond, and that it was impossible this could have happened without the knowledge and approval of Nicola Sturgeon. That was a shocking realisation to an Independence supporter like myself. But what Alex Salmond was now telling me went further, which was that Nicola Sturgeon was involved in the orchestration of fake complaints against him. This was fairly astonishing on first hearing.

18. I asked what the motive could be. Alex replied that he did not know ; perhaps it lay in King Lear. He said that he had genuinely intended to quit politics and had lined up a position as Chairman of Johnstone Press, which had fallen because of these allegations. But he had retired from the party leadership before, and then come back, and perhaps Nicola had concluded he needed a stake through the heart. He had made plain to her that he was not happy with her lack of progress towards an Independence referendum following the Brexit vote.

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

 

 

Again, I am not interested in the personal ambitions or machinations of individuals. The SNP is best placed as an entity to deliver independence. After that, they can implode in a machiavelian hissy fit of backstabbing if that's their destiny. The real objective will already have been achieved. 

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

But the Scottish Parliament voted for this to happen this way, they even included 16 and 17 year olds hoping it would boost their chance of a separation, I just fail to see your beef with it. The only guarantee is to only have SNP members voting if you had a indy2.

 

I have no beef with it. My beef is with the failure of Westminster to deliver on the promises they made in the run up to the referendum, and their further descent into corruption and gross incompetence. 

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Again, I am not interested in the personal ambitions or machinations of individuals. The SNP is best placed as an entity to deliver independence. After that, they can implode in a machiavelian hissy fit of backstabbing if that's their destiny. The real objective will already have been achieved. 

You used to be interested, you appear at last to be slightly back peddling and at least disassociating yourself from the SNP, they are going to hurt big time if these allegations become a reality and will blow a big hole in their party, problem being there is no other party to fill that void.

Which ever way you look at it, it is a problem that should never have happened, can you just imagine the leader of a political party trying to get someone jailed for a crime that they did not commit, the story if at all true is dynamite, with Sturgeon gone you can say goodnight Vienna to your independence.

2 hours ago, transam said:

As I said before, I would hate to see them fall via Scot shield beaters......????

Just as Europeans hated to see the British fail via brexit?

20 hours ago, sandyf said:

Obviously GDP per capita means little to you.

 

WRT the debate at hand, Malta's GDP per capita is irrelevant but I am very happy that they are doing so well under the EU's wing and all that. I just chose to entertain your wee digression. Scotland, as part of the United Kingdom has left that party. Scotland leaving the Union won't magically undo that.

 

On 1/27/2021 at 10:47 AM, RuamRudy said:

 

We are not proposing a Khmer Rouge style resetting of our economy to year zero. We already have a thriving, developed and multi faceted economy which outperforms most other parts of the UK. Why would this not factor into your post independence scenario? 

 

Neither am I but why can't the SNP just hang tight for a few more years to see how the UK fares now that Europe has cast her adrift? The lessons learned would be of inestimable value to any country wishing to follow independence. The SNP give all the signs of being in a bit of a panic about all this. Why?

 

Now look at what you've made me do? It looks like I've given Brexit the 'significant change' in referendum-enabling circumstances that the SNP claims it is.

 

I haven't and it isn't.

 

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you really so arrogant as to suggest that without the support of the English, we would not survive? 

No, the support of the UK numbers.

It is strange that everywhere I read or watch stuff from all over, the message is that Scotland will stuff itself for many a year on its own..

I would rather take notice of that than a shield beater....

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I have no beef with it. My beef is with the failure of Westminster to deliver on the promises they made in the run up to the referendum, and their further descent into corruption and gross incompetence. 

 

Before we throw "corruption and gross incompetence" brickbats at Westminster, let's not forget the closer to home CalMac ferry fiasco.

 

Of course the SNP's Minister for Energy, Connectivity and the Islands has chosen to ignore the findings of Holyrood’s own Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee. I guess he just wants this to go away before the May elections.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/26/anger-snp-rubbishes-damning-report-ferries-fiasco/

 

How does a £97 m contract for two Scottish island ferries for delivery in 2018 soar to near £200 m with the first ferry now scheduled for delivery in 2023?

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

A deficit widely derided as meaningless in that it emanates from the wasteful and corrupt black hole that is Westminster. 

 

Also dont forget, independence is about shaking off all the corruption and incompetence that your tory party. We don't want to do what is being done but because it hasn't worked for decades. 

I expected a reply like that, more Nationalist waffle....

Now tell me about Sturgeons mismanagement of funds.....

54 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Just as Europeans hated to see the British fail via brexit?

Not the case, to this day they are trying to stuff the UK in different ways. Brits have taken note of what their future would have been in the U.S. of G.

A few EU members, and a couple of Brits here have stated they want to see the UK crash, you know who they are.....????

22 minutes ago, transam said:

No, the support of the UK numbers.

It is strange that everywhere I read or watch stuff from all over, the message is that Scotland will stuff itself for many a year on its own..

I would rather take notice of that than a shield beater....

 

Yes, the said the same about Malta, Singapore, Malaysia etc. You are falling for the same propaganda that has been employed for decades. 

 

But if you are right, maybe you can explain just why Scotland is incapable of functioning like a normal country? 

 

If you could do that without tacking on schoolboy insults to your answer, that would appreciated. 

25 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Before we throw "corruption and gross incompetence" brickbats at Westminster, let's not forget the closer to home CalMac ferry fiasco.

 

Of course the SNP's Minister for Energy, Connectivity and the Islands has chosen to ignore the findings of Holyrood’s own Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee. I guess he just wants this to go away before the May elections.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/26/anger-snp-rubbishes-damning-report-ferries-fiasco/

 

How does a £97 m contract for two Scottish island ferries for delivery in 2018 soar to near £200 m with the first ferry now scheduled for delivery in 2023?

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

Everyone seems obsessed with the SNP's performance. 

 

I don't want an SNP future; I want an independent future in a country that is well managed and not hobbled by a class system so kakistocratic that we have no chance to change things. 

 

The SNP might get us there but I would drop them in a heartbeat if there was a better alternative. 

1 hour ago, vogie said:

You used to be interested, you appear at last to be slightly back peddling

Nonsense. Don't invent history to suit your current narrative. I have made it repeatedly clear that I have not been a member of the SNP since the mid 90s.

 

I will defend their results against the plethora of lies and misinformation but I have never been behoven to them in the way, for instance, that you slavishly and repeatedly defend Johnson. 

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Neither am I but why can't the SNP just hang tight for a few more years to see how the UK fares now that Europe has cast her adrift? The lessons learned would be of inestimable value to any country wishing to follow independence. The SNP give all the signs of being in a bit of a panic about all this. Why?

 

Scots made it abundantly clear in 2015 that they do not want the narrow minded, xenophobic isolationism of Brexit. Since then our objections have only increased. Nothing that has emanated from Brexit has changed our minds, whether it be the shafting of our farmers or the sell out of our fishing industry. If the rest of the UK is happy to continue to be fooled by a small bunch of incredibly rich people with very selfish interests then so be it, but Scots don't want that as a future. The path chosen by England and Wales is not one we want to take - if there is a means of escaping from this downward trajectory, they why would we not take it?

 

 

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

 

WRT the debate at hand, Malta's GDP per capita is irrelevant but I am very happy that they are doing so well under the EU's wing and all that. I just chose to entertain your wee digression. Scotland, as part of the United Kingdom has left that party. Scotland leaving the Union won't magically undo that.

 

 

Neither am I but why can't the SNP just hang tight for a few more years to see how the UK fares now that Europe has cast her adrift? The lessons learned would be of inestimable value to any country wishing to follow independence. The SNP give all the signs of being in a bit of a panic about all this. Why?

 

Now look at what you've made me do? It looks like I've given Brexit the 'significant change' in referendum-enabling circumstances that the SNP claims it is.

 

I haven't and it isn't.

 

 

At this week's PMQs, Christine Jardine, MP for Edinburgh West, asked a question of the PM about her constituency. As per his usual tack, he ignored her question entirely and started ranting about the SNP and about Scotland, and how the union benefits Scotland, how Scots had a referendum etc etc etc. Then he sat down and the next MP was called

However Jardine is not an SNP MP - she is a LibDem, fighting to save the union. But we see the arrogance and incompetence of our PM in that he doesn't even know what is going on in Scotland, doesn't know who represents Scotland's constituencies and isn't even interested in listening to the points raised. The PM does not serve Scotland or its people.

 

 

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

At this week's PMQs, Christine Jardine, MP for Edinburgh West, asked a question of the PM about her constituency. As per his usual tack, he ignored her question entirely and started ranting about the SNP and about Scotland, and how the union benefits Scotland, how Scots had a referendum etc etc etc. Then he sat down and the next MP was called

However Jardine is not an SNP MP - she is a LibDem, fighting to save the union. But we see the arrogance and incompetence of our PM in that he doesn't even know what is going on in Scotland, doesn't know who represents Scotland's constituencies and isn't even interested in listening to the points raised. The PM does not serve Scotland or its people.

 

 

I totally agree. Johnson's an oxygen waster but sadly, any Scottish independence referendum is forever linked to the SNP and thus forever tainted. I could see myself getting onboard if it wasn't for their "narrow minded, xenophobic isolationism."

 

Oh, wait...

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Nonsense. Don't invent history to suit your current narrative. I have made it repeatedly clear that I have not been a member of the SNP since the mid 90s.

 

I will defend their results against the plethora of lies and misinformation but I have never been behoven to them in the way, for instance, that you slavishly and repeatedly defend Johnson. 

Nobody is inventing anything. I don't care whether or not you are a member or not, you don't have to be in The Royal Navy to sail a boat.

 

5 hours ago, transam said:

As I said before, I would hate to see them fall via Scot shield beaters......????

Scotland has already fallen to flag flying brexiteers.

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

WRT the debate at hand, Malta's GDP per capita is irrelevant

 

The relationship between the 2 countries GDP per capita was in my post, but you ignored that and went off at a tangent with some obscure reference to location.

Are  you trying to say that It would be irrelevant to EU membership should Scotland become independent.

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

I totally agree. Johnson's an oxygen waster but sadly, any Scottish independence referendum is forever linked to the SNP and thus forever tainted. I could see myself getting onboard if it wasn't for their "narrow minded, xenophobic isolationism."

I was about to agree and then realised you were not referring to the last referendum.

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Everyone seems obsessed with the SNP's performance. 

 

I don't want an SNP future; I want an independent future in a country that is well managed and not hobbled by a class system so kakistocratic that we have no chance to change things. 

 

The SNP might get us there but I would drop them in a heartbeat if there was a better alternative. 

Reads like you are looking for something that isn't there, reads like you think UK's gov are all crooks.

Tell me your perfect country that's out there....?

25 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Scotland has already fallen to flag flying brexiteers.

Do you really think there are no Union Jack wavers in Scotland, or Scots that never voted for Brexit.......?   ????

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

We had an independence referendum in 2014 where the majority of Scots voted in favour of leaving the UK, but were defeated by the votes of incomers.

 

Not relevant to my point about the periodicity of referendums and their validity, but to address your point directly: If either party - unionist or nationalist - was unhappy with 'the rules', then they could have withheld their endorsement of the process.

 

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Also, the multiple promises made to voters to reject independence were ignored and nothing promised was delivered. 

 

We've had this discussion before. It's still unclear to me what specific promises were made (and broken). However, whether one believes that the pledge to devolve 'extensive new powers' to Holyrood post-2016 has been met is obviously a matter of opinion.

 

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So now we ask for a third. Nobody is taking about endless toing and froing. We are demanding that our right to determine the manner of government best suited to our needs is honoured. It's as simple as that. 

 

Rather than being as "simple as that", I'd suggest that resolving the question of Scottish independence 'once and for all' is fiendishly complex.

I assume that the demand for another referendum rests upon the premise that 1) polls suggest that popular opinion in Scotland now appears to support independence and/or 2) Brexit has changed the political landscape to such a degree that the result of the 2014 referendum should be considered null and void.

 

If 1) is a valid justification then I don't see what prevents the possibility of "endless toing and froing"? Assuming a referendum held in 2021 delivered a 'Leave' result, then if opinion polls suggested that Scots favoured rejoining the UK, in say 2028,  presumably you would accept the need for another referendum? Ditto 2035 if opinion changes back again, etc.?

 

Re 2): That Brexit is a major event is surely non-contentious whatever one's political leanings? Given that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, then it is argued that the 2014 result can no longer be considered to have validity. Imo this is the stronger argument however, in this case the referendum question will have to read something like: "Should Scotland be an independent nation, and apply to rejoin the EU?". If the second clause is not added then the question is identical to 2014 and, imo, 7 years is too soon to be asking exactly the same question.

 

On a related point. You have inferred that the relative frequency of referendums is a 'non-problem' and that you can never have too much democracy (my words). I disagree. 

 

Firstly, if Scotland were to become independent, would it be 'just' to hold another referendum (in say, 2028) before many of the consequences of independence were felt? 'No' is obvious answer, but then what about public opinion if it supported rejoining a union with the UK at that time?

 

Secondly - for me personally the more important issue - divorces are not without consequences for the passive party; in this case the rest of the UK. One need only look at the time, effort and resources that the EU has expended during the Brexit negotiations to realise this. (The EU was consumed by Brexit in the second half of 2016 and in 2017 to the extent that it considered little else):  I suspect that if Scotland were to vote 'Leave', then (ironically) Westminster would end up in the EU's position. As a 'one off' event, this might be acceptable - even desirable - if it drew a line under the issue however, like Brexit, I doubt that this would prove to be the case. 

 

As an Englishman, I do not want Westminster consumed by the topic of Scottish independence. I imagine that you might view this as another example of English arrogance, and disregard for Scotland. That is not the case. The topic of Scottish independence is important, requires debate and resolution (although this latter desire might not be possible). However, there has to be some proportionally. Scotland accounts for <10% of the UK population and generates <10% of the GDP, therefore imo the question of Scottish independence should not be allowed to dominate Westminster to the detriment of all other issues over the remainder of this parliament.

43 minutes ago, transam said:

Reads like you are looking for something that isn't there, reads like you think UK's gov are all crooks.

Tell me your perfect country that's out there....?

 

You demonstrate an attitude that is pretty common everywhere, I believe. This collective apathy is the reason there are so many failings in the world today. You are right, of course, governments generally cannot be trusted - but is that a reason not to try to make things better? Is that a reason to throw your hands in the air and say to your children and grandchildren that they needn't try to improve things, because nothing is perfect, and that's the reason you didn't try? Sorry, I don't subscribe to such defeatism. 

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

their "narrow minded, xenophobic isolationism."

Wanting to rejoin a union of 27 equal partner countries is narrow minded, xenophobic isolationism? 

 

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Always somebody elses fault.

Vogie, very naughty. You know that's my line. My lawyers will be in touch????

5 hours ago, vogie said:

So who are you trying to pin this on, excuse after excuse. Always somebody elses fault.

 

11 minutes ago, RayC said:

Vogie, very naughty. You know that's my line. My lawyers will be in touch????

Gracious me, I didn't realize either of you were from Liverpool!

42 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You demonstrate an attitude that is pretty common everywhere, I believe. This collective apathy is the reason there are so many failings in the world today. You are right, of course, governments generally cannot be trusted - but is that a reason not to try to make things better? Is that a reason to throw your hands in the air and say to your children and grandchildren that they needn't try to improve things, because nothing is perfect, and that's the reason you didn't try? Sorry, I don't subscribe to such defeatism. 

But folk do try, they can vote for change, the UK has tried different parties over the years for change, the Germans tried to change us and failed, Communist USSR decided to change, after their revolution forcibly changed their lives which was a failure, now they are a free capitalist country.

But, I can see no reason to change the UK, just because you S. Nationalists want to go it alone doesn't mean the UK is a failure, it was heading that way but Brexit should see fixes for the way we were heading, being controlled by others.

 

Seems that is what you want though, be controlled by others across the channel instead of standing shoulder to shoulder with your 300 year partners, how daft is that....

.

18 minutes ago, transam said:

But folk do try, they can vote for change, the UK has tried different parties over the years for change, the Germans tried to change us and failed, Communist USSR decided to change, after their revolution forcibly changed their lives which was a failure, now they are a free capitalist country.

But, I can see no reason to change the UK, just because you S. Nationalists want to go it alone doesn't mean the UK is a failure, it was heading that way but Brexit should see fixes for the way we were heading, being controlled by others.

 

Seems that is what you want though, be controlled by others across the channel instead of standing shoulder to shoulder with your 300 year partners, how daft is that....

.

Thats what scotland wants to do, have a vote for change, but those not in scotland wont let them.

15 hours ago, RayC said:

As an Englishman, I do not want Westminster consumed by the topic of Scottish independence. I imagine that you might view this as another example of English arrogance, and disregard for Scotland. That is not the case. The topic of Scottish independence is important, requires debate and resolution (although this latter desire might not be possible). However, there has to be some proportionally. Scotland accounts for <10% of the UK population and generates <10% of the GDP, therefore imo the question of Scottish independence should not be allowed to dominate Westminster to the detriment of all other issues over the remainder of this parliament.

There is no dispute that your comments have some validity but the root cause of this current situation is what needs to be addressed irrespective of how Westminster would be impacted.

If David Cameron's referendum bill had treated the devolved nations with a bit more respect we wouldn't be in this situation. The bill was passed by Westminster which as you are well aware has an overwhelming number of English MPs. 

There is't another country in the world that holds referendums in the same manner as the UK. There has only ever been 3 national referendums and just because the first 2 were not contentious does not mean the format is right.

I seen an interview on BBC last night with an election analyst and she mentioned there had been talk of breaking up England into Scotland size chunks to create greater symmetry within the UK, effectively the United States of Britain. That would be one way of opening the door to a fairer referendum format.

At the end of the day the issue is not going to go away and something has to give.

16 hours ago, transam said:

Do you really think there are no Union Jack wavers in Scotland, or Scots that never voted for Brexit.......?   ????

Do you really think Scotland has not fallen to brexit?

 

Boris Johnson claims push for independence referendum ‘completely irrelevant’ to most Scots

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-scotland-independence-referendum-b1794195.html#comments-area

 

A better argument for the referendum than anything the SNP could come up with.