Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[Sujo]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Where in my post did I say it does?

Great, glad you agree they should be allowed to vote for what they want.

[youreavinalaff]

8 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Great, glad you agree they should be allowed to vote for what they want.

I do agree, yes. So did everyone else. Hence the 2014 referendum. Did you hear about that? I believe they voted "NO". 

[sharksy]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I appreciate that this is the concept being floated, but coastal states extend 12 nautical miles from their coast. After that, the mass of the neighbouring states come into play. Scotland is not massive by any means, but it is significantly larger than the shetland. 

 

Fair enough.

 

But 2/3 of the North Sea oil is within Shetlands coastal waters, according to below.  And they don't seem too keen on the SNP telling them what to do.   Ummm, that sounds somewhat familiar.

 

Will you give your full support for their independence from Scotland, if they so wish?

 

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/03/18/tavish-baits-salmond-with-its-wir-oil-claim

Edited February 2, 2021 by sharksy

[transam]

14 hours ago, Sujo said:

Its nice to see people living in centuries gone by.

Could be, personally I don't, though I may have if I had moved to the Isle of Wight as planned. But history, that is a different matter, if it wasn't for history we would not have what we have today....????

[transam]

10 hours ago, Sujo said:

That is so last century.

 

btw, one doesnt just read history books, one is taught to comprehend the issues. Someone that just reads is not educated.

Really, well that must be the daftest thing I have read all week, note, I said "read".....????

If a bloke goes to university, why are they asked ..."What are you  reading"...?

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

 

Fair enough.

 

But 2/3 of the North Sea oil is within Shetlands coastal waters, according to below.  And they don't seem too keen on the SNP telling them what to do.   Ummm, that sounds somewhat familiar.

 

Will you give your full support for their independence from Scotland, if they so wish?

 

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/03/18/tavish-baits-salmond-with-its-wir-oil-claim

 

Oil - the Schrödinger's Cat of the independence debate.

 

On the one hand, a frequent unionist refrain is that oil is finished thus you will have nothing from which to develop your currently feudal economy. 

 

On the other hand, Shetland wants independence, they say, and will take all your lovely oil with them, so you will have nothing from which to develop your currently feudal economy. 

 

Personally, I am more aligned to the cornucopian than malthusian theory of oil provenance. I have worked in the oil industry for over 30 years with half of that spent in the North Sea. I continue to keep an eye on the region and still see regular investment from the majors plus the rise to dominance of the independents. One thing I rarely saw no matter what platform I was on, however, was the Shetland coastline. 

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, sharksy said:

 

Fair enough.

 

But 2/3 of the North Sea oil is within Shetlands coastal waters, according to below.  And they don't seem too keen on the SNP telling them what to do.   Ummm, that sounds somewhat familiar.

 

Will you give your full support for their independence from Scotland, if they so wish?

 

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/03/18/tavish-baits-salmond-with-its-wir-oil-claim

 

To answer your question, however... 

 

I believe it moot in the extreme. Why choose Shetland rather than, say, Methil? 

 

There is no drive for separation in Shetland. There is an utter joke of a man who stood at the last GE on a shetland independence ticket and got less than 1% of the vote. 

 

Check him out - he has a Wikipedia page : Captain Calamity

 

I am all for welcoming people from all over the world if they wish to settle in Scotland and contribute to its future, but if I was in charge I would make a point of deporting this troublemaker back to England, sorry. 

 

But I digress... 

 

It becomes a challenging matter when you try to say what entities should or should not have the right to secede from a greater entity. 

 

In respect to a notional idea that Shetland would want to go, I would fully expect all the questions posed in Scotland's independence being posited - currency, defence, administration etc. 

 

But there is still the question of how small can you go. Shetland has never been a country in itself. It was formerly part of Norway, and looking at how the Norwegians managed to prosper with the riches of oil, rather than gift it to tory friends and donors, I can fully understand that they feel peeved with the entire situation. But it was London that squandered and wasted the benefits of oil. Are they really likely to say that they want more of that? 

 

But would I support it? How could I not respect the wishes of the islanders of their desire was separation?

 

What I hope, however, is that the independent Scotland we create has a far greater degree of devolved power. The objective is to break away from the status quo and create something that is more cognisant of the people of all parts of the country. 

 

Our form of government should be developed in conjunction with all areas of the country, and it should recognise and respect the wishes of all. 

 

This would, I hope, assuage any fears of simply replacing London with Edinburgh. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by RuamRudy

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Really, well that must be the daftest thing I have read all week, note, I said "read".....????

If a bloke goes to university, why are they asked ..."What are you  reading"...?

You dont need libraries to read.

[Sujo]

4 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

I do agree, yes. So did everyone else. Hence the 2014 referendum. Did you hear about that? I believe they voted "NO". 

And since there is nothing in the agreement giving a timeline they should be free to vote again as they wish.

[RayC]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Its not evasive at all. If you want me to spell out every nuance of every facet of a referendum, sorry but maybe it's so obvious that I expect you to be able to fill in the blanks yourself. 

 

I am not, and never have asked you, to spell out "..every facet <etc.>..."; in fact, the exact opposite, my points are generic.

 

What have I have asked you to do is 1) acknowledge that Westminster has an important role to play in the complete independence process, and that it is not simply a matter for Scotland to decide unilaterally what, when and how the process works, and 2) that the results of referendums have some 'time validity'/ periodicity/ call it what you will which all parties agree to.

 

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But just how much consideration should we give the rest of the UK?

 

At least enough so that Westminster is satisfied with the process. 

 

(No, I can't detail every facet and nuance either).

 

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Should we drop the idea entirely because it has consequences elsewhere?

 

To invert your statement: Should we accept that the question of Scottish independence takes precedence over all other issues which Westminster has to deal with?

 

My answer is both cases is 'No'.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, transam said:

.. history, that is a different matter, if it wasn't for history we would not have what we have today...

 

2 hours ago, transam said:

 

If a bloke goes to university, why are they asked ..."What are you  reading"...?

 

I'm struggling to think of another time when I've agreed with any of the contents of your posts, but these are two profound statements.

 

I'll use them myself in future if you don't mind.

[youreavinalaff]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I am all for welcoming people from all over the world if they wish to settle in Scotland and contribute to its future, but if I was in charge I would make a point of deporting this troublemaker back to England, sorry. 

Troublemaker for wanting independence? That's a new stance from you.

 

I thought people had the right to their own future????

[Phulublub]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Oil - the Schrödinger's Cat of the independence debate.

 

On the one hand, a frequent unionist refrain is that oil is finished thus you will have nothing from which to develop your currently feudal economy. 

 

On the other hand, Shetland wants independence, they say, and will take all your lovely oil with them, so you will have nothing from which to develop your currently feudal economy. 

 

Personally, I am more aligned to the cornucopian than malthusian theory of oil provenance. I have worked in the oil industry for over 30 years with half of that spent in the North Sea. I continue to keep an eye on the region and still see regular investment from the majors plus the rise to dominance of the independents. One thing I rarely saw no matter what platform I was on, however, was the Shetland coastline. 

Oil is, for me, a total red herring, and was in 2014 too. 

 

It is not "Scotland's Oil" (or Shetland's Oil for that matter) .  North Sea blocks were auctioned off to the highest bidder who then had a right to prospect for oil and gas and then, if they chose, to develop any finds and produce from them.  Government exchequers rceieved the payments for the auctions and duties/taxes from sale.  Local economies benefit (hugely in some cases) from activity. 

 

PH

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

Troublemaker for wanting independence? That's a new stance from you.

 

I thought people had the right to their own future????

 

So if someone comes to England from, say, Scotland, and tries to create upheaval where there is none, and agitates for the break up of your country, you would ok with that? 

[Sujo]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So if someone comes to England from, say, Scotland, and tries to create upheaval where there is none, and agitates for the break up of your country, you would ok with that? 

Of course not.

 

Some on here dont even want scotland to have a say in what it wants.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Sujo said:

 

Some on here dont even want scotland to have a say in what it wants.

 

Unfortunately, you are probably correct.

 

However, there are also some on here who don't want Westminster to have any say in a process which has major implications for the other members of the UK.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

Unfortunately, you are probably correct.

 

However, there are also some on here who don't want Westminster to have any say in a process which has major implications for the other members of the UK.

 

I don't know to whom you are referring, but I have stated many times in the past that the best separation is an amicable and fair one that has the least amount of disruption and is executed with the most civility possible. 

 

In order for that to happen, there would need to be the intent on both sides to accomplish that. 

 

I may not want my country governed by yours, but it does not mean that I wish your country any ill will. Quite the opposite - I would like to see rUK flourish and thrive after we leave. You will find from me none of the nasty, bitter wishes expressed by some of your countrymen towards an independent Scotland. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

This guy gets my full support. 

 

UK should 'stop sending money to Scotland' says political expert

 

 

[sharksy]

On 1/26/2021 at 4:29 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

The UK has the highest covid death toll in the world. There is absolutely nothing that the UK has done that I would want an independent Scotland to replicate. 

Not even the Covid vaccination rates?

I see England is offering to help out Scotland, who is doing the worst out of the 4 nations.

 

I would support an independent Scotland, just not yet.  I think there is a lot of work to do in several areas to show that the SNP can govern well.  I know you say, the SNP is effectively, a one-trick pony, to get independence.

But I can't see a decent political part to choose from after independence.  Scottish Labour Party maybe?

 

[RuamRudy]

42 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Not even the Covid vaccination rates?

I see England is offering to help out Scotland, who is doing the worst out of the 4 nations.

 

I would support an independent Scotland, just not yet.  I think there is a lot of work to do in several areas to show that the SNP can govern well.  I know you say, the SNP is effectively, a one-trick pony, to get independence.

But I can't see a decent political part to choose from after independence.  Scottish Labour Party maybe?

 

 

You are assuming that the strategy of the Westminster government re: vaccination is the correct one. If they have, indeed, chosen the correct strategy then it is a first for them in this crisis. 

 

The Scottish government is pursuing a different approach - care home residents, over 70s, full time carers etc. Their efforts with covid in general have not been world class but have been better than in England. I trust their thinking in the vaccine rollout more than I do Hancock's. 

[NiceGuyEddy]

10 hours ago, Sujo said:

Of course not.

 

Some on here dont even want scotland to have a say in what it wants.

They had a say on independance in 2014. A 'once-in-a-generation' referendum. The nationalists lost 55/45. END OF STORY (for a generation anyway)

[tebee]

2 hours ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

They had a say on independance in 2014. A 'once-in-a-generation' referendum. The nationalists lost 55/45. END OF STORY (for a generation anyway)

It's now the new post-brexit generation....

[youreavinalaff]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:56 AM, RuamRudy said:

 

So if someone comes to England from, say, Scotland, and tries to create upheaval where there is none, and agitates for the break up of your country, you would ok with that? 

What about if they were Scottish in Scotland? Would that mean they had rights?

 

Shetland Islands recorded the fourth-highest No vote in the country in the 2014 independence referendum, at 64%. 

 

On September 9, 2020, Shetland Council voted 18-2 (with two members absent) to support a motion to explore options for achieving “financial and political self-determination” for the islands.

[RuamRudy]

37 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

What about if they were Scottish in Scotland? Would that mean they had rights?

 

 

That is the thrust of the independence movement. It is also wholly irrelevant. Here we have a man who moves to a community in another country and immediately starts causing consternation and discord. He has been imprisoned because of his behaviour and he has proven himself to be nothing but a troublemaker. I know that the Express loves him as the voice of Shetland independence, but they never seem to have enough column inches to print just little backing he has from Shetlanders.

 

41 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

On September 9, 2020, Shetland Council voted 18-2 (with two members absent) to support a motion to explore options for achieving “financial and political self-determination” for the islands.

 

And rightly so. Like the rest of Scotland, Shetland has been fleeced dry by successive Westminster governments. I am sure you are aware that North Sea oil is not restricted to the waters around Shetland. One of the first commercial platforms in the North Sea, the Auk, is still going strong 45 minutes east of Dundee - so it is not just the Shetlanders who feel incredible umbrage at how their bounty was stolen to line the pockets of tory cronies.

 

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, independence for me will include a wholesale ripping up of the structure of cronyism of the current establishment. It has served to the benefit of only a very small number of people in any of the 4 countries of the UK for generations. 

[NiceGuyEddy]

12 hours ago, tebee said:

It's now the new post-brexit generation....

Brexit has nothing to do with it. The cult of the SNP nationalists are like children just stamping their feet because they didn't get their own way in 2014.

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That is the thrust of the independence movement. It is also wholly irrelevant. Here we have a man who moves to a community in another country and immediately starts causing consternation and discord. He has been imprisoned because of his behaviour and he has proven himself to be nothing but a troublemaker. I know that the Express loves him as the voice of Shetland independence, but they never seem to have enough column inches to print just little backing he has from Shetlanders.

 

 

And rightly so. Like the rest of Scotland, Shetland has been fleeced dry by successive Westminster governments. I am sure you are aware that North Sea oil is not restricted to the waters around Shetland. One of the first commercial platforms in the North Sea, the Auk, is still going strong 45 minutes east of Dundee - so it is not just the Shetlanders who feel incredible umbrage at how their bounty was stolen to line the pockets of tory cronies.

 

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, independence for me will include a wholesale ripping up of the structure of cronyism of the current establishment. It has served to the benefit of only a very small number of people in any of the 4 countries of the UK for generations. 

That is you most evasive post so far. By trying to dissect my post to your benefit and to fit your reply, you have changed the meaning of my posts.

 

My "what about Scottish in Scotland" refers to Shetland Islanders. Not Mr. Calamity.

 

They voted 64% remain. Does that mean that they can stay in UK in the event of Scottish independence? By the look of your rants throughout this thread in relation to self determination, you answer can only be affirmative.

 

The Shetland council voted on “financial and political self-determination”  from Scotland. Not Westminster.

 

My post had nothing to do with Westminster or "Tory cronies". You know that but could not make a valid point against it and, thus, made you own little story.

 

That, in itself, speaks volumes.

[transam]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That is the thrust of the independence movement. It is also wholly irrelevant. Here we have a man who moves to a community in another country and immediately starts causing consternation and discord. He has been imprisoned because of his behaviour and he has proven himself to be nothing but a troublemaker. I know that the Express loves him as the voice of Shetland independence, but they never seem to have enough column inches to print just little backing he has from Shetlanders.

 

 

And rightly so. Like the rest of Scotland, Shetland has been fleeced dry by successive Westminster governments. I am sure you are aware that North Sea oil is not restricted to the waters around Shetland. One of the first commercial platforms in the North Sea, the Auk, is still going strong 45 minutes east of Dundee - so it is not just the Shetlanders who feel incredible umbrage at how their bounty was stolen to line the pockets of tory cronies.

 

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, independence for me will include a wholesale ripping up of the structure of cronyism of the current establishment. It has served to the benefit of only a very small number of people in any of the 4 countries of the UK for generations. 

All of that and we had two Scot Prime Ministers for over a decade running the UK......

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

All of that and we had two Scot Prime Ministers for over a decade running the UK......

 

Don't forget, 47% of Scots voted to remain in the UK in 2014. 

 

Also, Blair was not really pushing the whole Scottish thing; not something that particularly resonated with him as far as I could tell. 

 

And Brown, for all his faults, is not a unionist with a capital U. I think he genuinely believes in the tenets of L'Internationale.

Edited February 4, 2021 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

That is you most evasive post so far. By trying to dissect my post to your benefit and to fit your reply, you have changed the meaning of my posts.

 

My "what about Scottish in Scotland" refers to Shetland Islanders. Not Mr. Calamity.

 

They voted 64% remain. Does that mean that they can stay in UK in the event of Scottish independence? By the look of your rants throughout this thread in relation to self determination, you answer can only be affirmative.

 

The Shetland council voted on “financial and political self-determination”  from Scotland. Not Westminster.

 

My post had nothing to do with Westminster or "Tory cronies". You know that but could not make a valid point against it and, thus, made you own little story.

 

That, in itself, speaks volumes.

 

Can you converse in a normal manner without the need to throw in unfounded insinuations and veiled insults? If so, then I am happy to continue, otherwise let's just agree to disagree. 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Don't forget, 47% of Scots voted to remain in the UK in 2014. 

 

Also, Blair was not really pushing the whole Scottish thing; not something that particularly resonated with him as far as I could tell. 

 

And Brown, for all his faults, is not a unionist with a capital U. I think he genuinely believes in the tenets of L'Internationale.

But those in charge of the UK in Westminster for years were Scottish. They had years to sort stuff that you Nationalists complain about, your own countrymen..