Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[Rookiescot]

14 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Says who? "Memory loss" Sturgeon? She doesn't get to decide. 

The people who live in Scotland.

Or is it just up to Brexiteers and a right wing English nationalist tory government in Westminster.

[vogie]

40 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

That was before Brexit.

If you wanted Scotland to remain in the UK you should have voted to remain in the EU.

You can have Brexit or the UK. You cant have both. You chose Brexit.

I wanted the UK to leave the EU and also for Scotland to remain within our union as did most citizens of these isles. Both these issues were democratically voted on and the UK voted to exit the EU while Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Brexit had little or no effect on the SNP wanting to patition the UK, with or without the the EU referendum the SNP would always seek to leave the UK, am I right or am I right?

There is no logic what-so-ever in you saying we must have one or t'other. As proven we have indeed got both, that is the reality.

[JonnyF]

59 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The people who live in Scotland.

Or is it just up to Brexiteers and a right wing English nationalist tory government in Westminster.

You already know the answer to that. Parliament is sovereign.

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I wanted the UK to leave the EU and also for Scotland to remain within our union as did most citizens of these isles. Both these issues were democratically voted on and the UK voted to exit the EU while Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Brexit had little or no effect on the SNP wanting to patition the UK, with or without the the EU referendum the SNP would always seek to leave the UK, am I right or am I right?

There is no logic what-so-ever in you saying we must have one or t'other. As proven we have indeed got both, that is the reality.

Most citizens, as you say, did not want that.

 

You have both because you wont allow them to decide for themselves.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Sujo

[JonnyF]

59 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Most citizens, as you say, did not want that.

 

You have both because you wont allow them to decide for themselves.

We let them decide, just not every 5 minutes or every time the wind direction changes.

Ultimately we live in a Parliamentary Democracy and as the Remainers loved to tell us when it was a Remainer Parliament, Parliament is sovereign.

Following the 2019 General Election they don't seem to repeat that mantra so often. 

Anyway, Parliament will decide if and when there is another referendum. Not some Amnesiac Scottish politician.

[Sujo]

9 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

We let them decide, just not every 5 minutes or every time the wind direction changes.

Ultimately we live in a Parliamentary Democracy and as the Remainers loved to tell us when it was a Remainer Parliament, Parliament is sovereign.

Following the 2019 General Election they don't seem to repeat that mantra so often. 

Anyway, Parliament will decide if and when there is another referendum. Not some Amnesiac Scottish politician.

Thats the whole point, you let them. You shouldnt have a say.

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Thats the whole point, you let them. You shouldnt have a say.

We did. They had their say. 55% wanted to Remain in the UK, unfortunately.

The vocal fanatical nationalist minority screaming from the rooftops doesn't change that.

[Sujo]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

We did. They had their say. 55% wanted to Remain in the UK, unfortunately.

The vocal fanatical nationalist minority screaming from the rooftops doesn't change that.

Again, you let them, you shouldnt have a say. They voted to stay in the uk that was in the eu. They should not have to beg for a vote on staying in the uk that is not in the eu.

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Again, you let them, you shouldnt have a say. They voted to stay in the uk that was in the eu. They should not have to beg for a vote on staying in the uk that is not in the eu.

So you think they should just be able to have a vote as often as they like until they finally win one, and then leave?

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

So you think they should just be able to have a vote as often as they like until they finally win one, and then leave?

It doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

We have general elections every 5 years or even sooner if it suits the tory government in power at the time.

Why do we do that? Because people are allowed to change their minds in a democracy.

What you want is to deny people a say on their future simply because you dont like your chances of being able to convince them to your side of the argument.

How is that democracy?

[JonnyF]

8 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

We have general elections every 5 years or even sooner if it suits the tory government in power at the time.

Why do we do that? Because people are allowed to change their minds in a democracy.

What you want is to deny people a say on their future simply because you dont like your chances of being able to convince them to your side of the argument.

How is that democracy?

So if there was a Remain vote in Brexit you'd be pushing for another referendum to leave the EU? I don't think so. You just can't accept losing.

As you know, my side of the argument is the same as yours in as much as I would like Scotland out of the union. Devolution has set them on the path to becoming a banana republic and it has become embarrassing for the rest of the UK to be associated with. The latest sexual harassment claims on the back of Sturgeons publicly funded vendetta against Salmond and subsequent coverup and amnesia are unbecoming of a member of the UK and I'd like Scotland out.

However, the fact remains that you voted to Remain.

Scandal after scandal for the SNP. And you call the Tories the nasty party? ????

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/10/snp-chief-whip-steps-down-sexual-harassment-complaint-patrick-grady

 

 

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So if there was a Remain vote in Brexit you'd be pushing for another referendum to leave the EU? I don't think so. You just can't accept losing.

As you know, my side of the argument is the same as yours in as much as I would like Scotland out of the union. Devolution has set them on the path to becoming a banana republic and it has become embarrassing for the rest of the UK to be associated with. The latest sexual harassment claims on the back of Sturgeons publicly funded vendetta against Salmond and subsequent coverup and amnesia are unbecoming of a member of the UK and I'd like Scotland out.

However, the fact remains that you voted to Remain.

Scandal after scandal for the SNP. And you call the Tories the nasty party? ????

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/10/snp-chief-whip-steps-down-sexual-harassment-complaint-patrick-grady

 

 

As a suposed ally, your posts don't really convey the message that you are on the same side. They seem just to be filled with snide insults and weak attacks which, even the most cursory of glances prove to be laughable.

 I mean, let's be honest - the UK's name has been tarnished by the stupidity of Brexit and the election of, arguably the most incompetent PM of any of our years. Add to that the blatant corruption of our cabinet and the disaster they have created in the post Brexit period and do you really think that Scotland looks bad? Do we also need to start to list the many, many sexual deviants within the Nasty Party? You are aware, I presume, of the In-Out list? I can share it with you if you want to see the truth about your party of choice.

Your constant insults of Scots, your attacks on Scotland and on our institutions betray your own insecurity. Don't worry - it is nothing personal that the majority of Scots want  to break free, and that the Welsh and NI are increasingly moving to that decision too.

[JonnyF]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As a suposed ally, your posts don't really convey the message that you are on the same side. They seem just to be filled with snide insults and weak attacks which, even the most cursory of glances prove to be laughable.

 I mean, let's be honest - the UK's name has been tarnished by the stupidity of Brexit and the election of, arguably the most incompetent PM of any of our years. Add to that the blatant corruption of our cabinet and the disaster they have created in the post Brexit period and do you really think that Scotland looks bad? Do we also need to start to list the many, many sexual deviants within the Nasty Party? You are aware, I presume, of the In-Out list? I can share it with you if you want to see the truth about your party of choice.

Your constant insults of Scots, your attacks on Scotland and on our institutions betray your own insecurity. Don't worry - it is nothing personal that the majority of Scots want  to break free, and that the Welsh and NI are increasingly moving to that decision too.

You should be glad you have an ally. I know you love to push the narrative the we're all devastated that you want to leave but the truth is that many of us aren't. Many of us are sick of the constant sniping at the English (sorry I mean Westminster) and bitter, corrupt infighting/backstabbing and would be more than happy to watch as you slip into a decade of isolationism, recession and austerity, begging the EU to let you join their corrupt protectionist racket. The antics of the SNP in the last 2 years is more becoming of a banana republic than a member of the UK.

Keep going with your nationalist rhetoric if you like, but just drop all this "Scotland was the price of Brexit" nonsense because as far as I and many others are concerned it is not only a price worth paying but more of a 2 for 1 Special Offer.

My only issue with you leaving is that 55% of Scots voted to Remain. 

[Rookiescot]

57 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So if there was a Remain vote in Brexit you'd be pushing for another referendum to leave the EU? I don't think so. You just can't accept losing.

As you know, my side of the argument is the same as yours in as much as I would like Scotland out of the union. Devolution has set them on the path to becoming a banana republic and it has become embarrassing for the rest of the UK to be associated with. The latest sexual harassment claims on the back of Sturgeons publicly funded vendetta against Salmond and subsequent coverup and amnesia are unbecoming of a member of the UK and I'd like Scotland out.

However, the fact remains that you voted to Remain.

Scandal after scandal for the SNP. And you call the Tories the nasty party? ????

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/10/snp-chief-whip-steps-down-sexual-harassment-complaint-patrick-grady

 

 

 

So if there was a remain vote in Brexit you would not be pushing for another referendum?

Aye right.

The rest of your post is just the usual trolling and baiting.

[JonnyF]

13 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

So if there was a remain vote in Brexit you would not be pushing for another referendum?

Aye right.

The rest of your post is just the usual trolling and baiting.

No I wouldn't be pushing for another one. Same as I am not pushing for Scottish Indyref2 even though I'd like Scotland to leave.

Referendums are not general elections that happen every 4 years. They are typically once in a generation (where have I heard that before?).

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

You should be glad you have an ally. I know you love to push the narrative the we're all devastated that you want to leave but the truth is that many of us aren't. Many of us are sick of the constant sniping at the English (sorry I mean Westminster) and bitter, corrupt infighting/backstabbing and would be more than happy to watch as you slip into a decade of isolationism, recession and austerity, begging the EU to let you join their corrupt protectionist racket. The antics of the SNP in the last 2 years is more becoming of a banana republic than a member of the UK.

Keep going with your nationalist rhetoric if you like, but just drop all this "Scotland was the price of Brexit" nonsense because as far as I and many others are concerned it is not only a price worth paying but more of a 2 for 1 Special Offer.

My only issue with you leaving is that 55% of Scots voted to Remain. 

Scotland was the price of Brexit? Hardly - Brexit has cost a lot more than that... the reputation of the UK as being an honest country to deal with; the reputation of the British people as being, well, not nasty and bitterly racist; the opportunity for our young people to be supported to study abroad; the opportunity for freedom of movement, work and residence across the EU; then there is the massive financial cost, which has already exceed to total sum of UK contributions to the EU, and also the cost of all the jobs being lost because of a small minority of angry xenophbes. That is barely the start of the list of the cost of Brexit. 

I find it interesting that you assume a reaction against Westminster is a reaction against the English and only England. It is almost as if you think that the UK is England with some peripherals. Odd, that...

Edited March 11, 2021 by RuamRudy

[JonnyF]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Scotland was the price of Brexit? Hardly - Brexit has cost a lot more than that... the reputation of the UK as being an honest country to deal with; the reputation of the British people as being, well, not nasty and bitterly racist; the opportunity for our young people to be supported to study abroad; the opportunity for freedom of movement, work and residence across the EU; then there is the massive financial cost, which has already exceed to total sum of UK contributions to the EU, and also the cost of all the jobs being lost because of a small minority of angry xenophbes. That is barely the start of the list of the cost of Brexit. 

I find it interesting that you assume a reaction against Westminster is a reaction against the English and only England. It is almost as if you think that the UK is England with some peripherals. Odd, that...

Nice rhetoric, but it's a bit early to be concluding whether Brexit was a success or not, we only left the withdrawal period a few weeks ago.

Ignoring the lack of facts and the childish name calling in your alarmist post, the early signs are promising. The pound climbing steadily against the Euro, trade deals being struck left, right and centre. The UK under no pressure to partake in the disastrous EU vaccination scheme and therefore massively outperforming the cumbersome EU in vaccinating the population. A great start for Post Brexit, Global Britain.

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Nice rhetoric, but it's a bit early to be concluding whether Brexit was a success or not, we only left the withdrawal period a few weeks ago.

Ignoring the lack of facts and the childish name calling in your alarmist post, the early signs are promising. The pound climbing steadily against the Euro, trade deals being struck left, right and centre. The UK under no pressure to partake in the disastrous EU vaccination scheme and therefore massively outperforming the cumbersome EU in vaccinating the population. A great start for Post Brexit, Global Britain.

 

 

Name calling? All fact based, every single point - sadly, there are mountains of evidence if you wish me to link you to it. 

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Name calling? All fact based, every single point - sadly, there are mountains of evidence if you wish me to link you to it. 

That would be great. Please provide mountains of evidence that the reputation of British people is now that they are nasty and bitterly racist, as you claimed.

Also that the 52% of people that wanted Brexit were a small minority of angry xenophobes, as you claimed.

That evidence would be great, because frankly, I don't think it is the Brexiteers that appear nasty, bitter and angry here.????

PS unemployment was down significantly from 2016 to the start of COVID19.

 

[RuamRudy]

44 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

That would be great. Please provide mountains of evidence that the reputation of British people is now that they are nasty and bitterly racist, as you claimed.

Also that the 52% of people that wanted Brexit were a small minority of angry xenophobes, as you claimed.

That evidence would be great, because frankly, I don't think it is the Brexiteers that appear nasty, bitter and angry here.????

PS unemployment was down significantly from 2016 to the start of COVID19.

 

Do you really need me to google that which you must surely know to be true? I can, if you like, but the simple act of typing 'Brexit Racism' will bring up many reports, articles and research papers highlighting the connection.  Page after page, these are both domestic and international in origin.

If you stay on the Google results page and click on the Images link at the top, you will see the visual evidence that racism was a primary motivation for many, many people. You will also see the Vote Leave propaganda that played on that innate racism and amplified the message all through the brexit campaign and beyond.

Not all Brexiteers are racist and not all racists are Brexiteers, but the overlap is significant. 

52% of those who turned out were only 37% of the electorate. That is your small minority. The majority did not - and do not - support Brexit. 

[Surelynot]

58 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Please provide mountains of evidence that the reputation of British people is now that they are nasty and bitterly racist

The only amendment I would make to this sentence is the word 'now'......rather superfluous.

[Surelynot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

That would be great. Please provide mountains of evidence that the reputation of British people is now that they are nasty and bitterly racist, as you claimed.

Also that the 52% of people that wanted Brexit were a small minority of angry xenophobes, as you claimed.

That evidence would be great, because frankly, I don't think it is the Brexiteers that appear nasty, bitter and angry here.????

PS unemployment was down significantly from 2016 to the start of COVID19.

 

 

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Do you really need me to google that which you must surely know to be true? I can, if you like, but the simple act of typing 'Brexit Racism' will bring up many reports, articles and research papers highlighting the connection.  Page after page, these are both domestic and international in origin.

If you stay on the Google results page and click on the Images link at the top, you will see the visual evidence that racism was a primary motivation for many, many people. You will also see the Vote Leave propaganda that played on that innate racism and amplified the message all through the brexit campaign and beyond.

Not all Brexiteers are racist and not all racists are Brexiteers, but the overlap is significant. 

52% of those who turned out were only 37% of the electorate. That is your small minority. The majority did not - and do not - support Brexit. 

Is that your idea of linking to hard evidence?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Is that your idea of linking to hard evidence?

As I said, I can if you wish, but it is like trying to prove to someone that water is wet. It seems somewhat pointless when the reality is universally recognised.

Here's the Washington Post:

In the heated atmosphere before the election, the lines between anti-immigration rhetoric and pure racism became blurry. Just a week before the election Farage, who was not a member of the official "leave" campaign but ran his own movement, unveiled an advertising campaign that showed a crowd of refugees and migrants. Many critics noted that it resembled propaganda put out by Nazi Germany. 

 

Here's Nature:

We argue that recent evidence suggests that levels of prejudice towards ‘others’ was a factor in the Brexit vote and that the attitudes underlying this vote must be explored in greater detail through cross-disciplinary scientific research, with legitimate concerns recognised and fallacies challenged.

 

Here's Andolu Agency:

British police is investigating a racist Brexit poster that demands residents of a council block to speak no other languages but English or leave the country.

...

 

“As we finally have our great country back we feel there is one rule to that needs to be made clear to residents,” the notice said under the title “Happy Brexit Day.”

“We do not tolerate people speaking other languages than English in the flats. We are now our own country again and the Queen's English [sic.] is the spoken tongue here,” it said.

It said: “If you do want to speak whatever is the mother tongue of the country you came from, then we suggest you return to that place and return your flat to the council so they can let British people live here and we can return to what was normality before you infected this once great island.

“It is a simple choice, obey the rule of the majority or leave. You won’t have long till our government will implement rules that will put British first. So, best evolve or leave,” it added.

 

Then, there are all the racist headlines of the Daily Mail and Express, as posted by Surelynot. But you keep denying what everyone knows to be true if you like.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

When you've run out of all ideas and arguments, scream Racist. Well Done. ????

An alternative perspective may be that if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, you can be pretty confident it's a duck. 

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

No I wouldn't be pushing for another one. Same as I am not pushing for Scottish Indyref2 even though I'd like Scotland to leave.

Referendums are not general elections that happen every 4 years. They are typically once in a generation (where have I heard that before?).

 

 

How many referendums does Switzerland have every year?

Of course Switzerland is a far more democratic country than the UK though.

Democracy Index - Wikipedia

[JonnyF]

51 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Where did I protest? ????. That would be playing your game. The tired old tactic is to put me on the defensive to defend myself against completely unfounded allegations and therefore move the discussion away from the argument that you are losing. 

It reminds me of when I played tournament snooker as an amateur. As soon as my opponent started muttering about luck I knew I had them. Same with people of your ilk, as soon as you move away from the topic at hand and start branding everyone a Racist I know I am winning the argument.????

Now, back to the subject in hand. Why are so convinced that Scotland is the belle of the ball? That everyone in the UK would be so upset if you left? Because many people I speak to would quite like you to leave because the more powers we devolve, the more you descend into something that resembles a banana republic. The latest sexual abuse allegations against the SNP just heap more shame on them.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/new-sexual-harassment-claim-rocks-snp-3157850

 

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Where did I protest? ????. That would be playing your game. The tired old tactic is to put me on the defensive to defend myself against completely unfounded allegations and therefore move the discussion away from the argument that you are losing. 

It reminds me of when I played tournament snooker as an amateur. As soon as my opponent started muttering about luck I knew I had them. Same with people of your ilk, as soon as you move away from the topic at hand and start branding everyone a Racist I know I am winning the argument.????

Now, back to the subject in hand. Why are so convinced that Scotland is the belle of the ball? That everyone in the UK would be so upset if you left? Because many people I speak to would quite like you to leave because the more powers we devolve, the more you descend into something that resembles a banana republic. The latest sexual abuse allegations against the SNP just heap more shame on them.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/new-sexual-harassment-claim-rocks-snp-3157850

 

Ha.......dear oh dear....sexual abuse scandals? The Tories are the home of sexual abuse scandals.......not an area I would have chosen to highlight for sure.

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Because many people I speak to

You are seriously posting that as evidence to support your argument.........555

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Ha.......dear oh dear....sexual abuse scandals? The Tories are the home of sexual abuse scandals.......not an area I would have chosen to highlight for sure.

Lovely deflection but this is a thread about Scottish Nationalism. A cause that appears to being lead by a party full of liars and sexual deviants.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19143768.snp-worker-accuses-two-snp-mps-inappropriate-touching-sexual-misconduct/

It's a real shame you lot lost in 2014. The shame that the SNP has heaped on the rest of the UK in the last 2 years is immeasurable. I really wish you had a mandate for Indyref2 but alas...