Just now, JonnyF said:

Lovely deflection but this is a thread about Scottish Nationalism

Oh! So it's not about sexual abuse.......my bad.......so who brought that up?

6 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

You are seriously posting that as evidence to support your argument.........555

Where did I claim it was evidence that everyone wants Scotland out? Of that's right, I didn't. ????

I'd give that strawman 4/10.

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Oh! So it's not about sexual abuse.......my bad.......so who brought that up?

It's about Scottish Nationalists and their party (the SNP) which appears to have more than their fair share of sexual scandals.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-worker-accuses-two-mps-23625660

Makes you wonder what their supporters see in them ????.

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

It's about Scottish Nationalists and their party (the SNP) which appears to have more than their fair share of sexual scandals.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-worker-accuses-two-mps-23625660

Makes you wonder what their supporters see in them ????.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2017/11/06/5-tory-sex-scandals-broke-last-48-hours/

555

23 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Ha.......dear oh dear....sexual abuse scandals? The Tories are the home of sexual abuse scandals.......not an area I would have chosen to highlight for sure.

Here is the infamous In-Out list which was maintained by the Nasty Party whips. Admittedly it is a bit out of date so no little tinpot generals on it, or former Tory MPs for Aberdeen, for example. No doubt that there are plenty fresh names on the list. Are these the sort of people who are somehow better than the SNP?

Leaked list of Conservative Party sex pest sleaze published, shaming THIRTY SIX current Tory MPs

 

Edited March 11, 20215 yr by RuamRudy

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Here is the infamous In-Out list which was maintained by the Nasty Party whips. Admittedly it is a bit out of date so no little tinpot generals on it, or former Tory MPs for Aberdeen, for example. No doubt that there are plenty fresh names on the list. Are these the sort of people who are somehow better than the SNP?

Leaked list of Conservative Party sex pest sleaze published, shaming THIRTY SIX current Tory MPs

 

Now that really is Project Fear.....555

52 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It's about Scottish Nationalists and their party (the SNP) which appears to have more than their fair share of sexual scandals.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-worker-accuses-two-mps-23625660

Makes you wonder what their supporters see in them ????.

makes me wonder why you care. One can support leaving without supporting snp.

I dont particularly think they should leave. But that is an issue for the scots to decide without having to ask another country for permission.

45 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Here is the infamous In-Out list which was maintained by the Nasty Party whips. Admittedly it is a bit out of date so no little tinpot generals on it, or former Tory MPs for Aberdeen, for example. No doubt that there are plenty fresh names on the list. Are these the sort of people who are somehow better than the SNP?

Leaked list of Conservative Party sex pest sleaze published, shaming THIRTY SIX current Tory MPs

 

Makes you wonder who was on the list of sex offenders and pedophiles that the tory party "lost". 

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

How many referendums does Switzerland have every year?

Of course Switzerland is a far more democratic country than the UK though.

Democracy Index - Wikipedia

Also in the US many states have initiatives and referendums every election that is held.  You might have heard things like California Proposition <number>.  Those are effectively referendums (binding) that are added to the ballot each year by either the legislature or by petition by ordinary citizens. 

In Canada, Quebec can hold a referendum whenever they want (they held one in 1976 and 1995 I believe - it is not limited but even a separatist parties in power they don't push it -- unless something has changed and they think it is possible to win).  I am surprised that there have been none since 1995 since it was very close (49/51). 

IMHO, if you live by democracy then you should be prepared for the country as a whole to end by democracy...  and elections and referendums should have no special (once in a generation) restrictions.... (i.e. you can only vote once in a generation).

 

Edited March 11, 20215 yr by bkkcanuck8

18 hours ago, Sujo said:

makes me wonder why you care. One can support leaving without supporting snp.

I dont particularly think they should leave. But that is an issue for the scots to decide without having to ask another country for permission.

I care because it presents issues of trust for the Sexually Nefarious Party. If sturgeon can't be trusted to tell the truth or remember just about anything, and the MP's are sexually abusing people then it makes me wonder about their their integrity, how can I believe their other claims?

I agree it is for the Scots to decide. They did that it 2014. Unfortunately they decided to Remain. Another vote could be held in a few years, but let's see how Brexit pans out first, early signs are very encouraging but 6 weeks since leaving the withdrawal agreement is obviously not enough time to make an informed judgement. Holding a referendum in the middle of a pandemic is not the most responsible thing to do either.

But sturgeon wants to do it now, before Project Fear has been comprehensively debunked. Before the full extent and the full consequences of the EU's failed vaccination program becomes clear.

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I care because it presents issues of trust for the Sexually Nefarious Party. If sturgeon can't be trusted to tell the truth or remember just about anything, and the MP's are sexually abusing people then it makes me wonder about their their integrity, how can I believe their other claims?

I agree it is for the Scots to decide. They did that it 2014. Unfortunately they decided to Remain. Another vote could be held in a few years, but let's see how Brexit pans out first, early signs are very encouraging but 6 weeks since leaving the withdrawal agreement is obviously not enough time to make an informed judgement. Holding a referendum in the middle of a pandemic is not the most responsible thing to do either.

But sturgeon wants to do it now, before Project Fear has been comprehensively debunked. Before the full extent and the full consequences of the EU's failed vaccination program becomes clear.

You dont have to believe snp or vote at all. Nice of you to decide when its ok for the scots to decide what they want for there own country and when they should be allowed.

10 minutes ago, Sujo said:

You dont have to believe snp or vote at all. Nice of you to decide when its ok for the scots to decide what they want for there own country and when they should be allowed.

The SNP are the ones driving Independence. They are the ones telling everyone how awful the English (sorry I mean Westminster) are and how it's going to be nothing but sunny uplands should you be allowed into the EU in a decade or so. They are the ones telling everyone how Scotland will be better off isolated for a decade in the North Sea, with no trade deal with the UK/EU and little control over the monetary policy before possibly (but not necessarily) being allowed into the EU to hand power over to Brussels.

If they cannot be trusted, why should anyone believe these frankly ludicrous claims? Why should they not suspect that this is simply political ambition by sturgeon to strengthen her grip over the country while it goes swirling down the bowl?

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The SNP are the ones driving Independence. They are the ones telling everyone how awful the English (sorry I mean Westminster) are and how it's going to be nothing but sunny uplands should you be allowed into the EU in a decade or so. They are the ones telling everyone how Scotland will be better off isolated for a decade in the North Sea, with no trade deal with the UK/EU and little control over the monetary policy before possibly (but not necessarily) being allowed into the EU to hand power over to Brussels.

If they cannot be trusted, why should anyone believe these frankly ludicrous claims? Why should they not suspect that this is simply political ambition by sturgeon to strengthen her grip over the country while it goes swirling down the bowl?

Its all about sovereignty. Taking back control. There will be no downsides to independence. The UK needs us more than we need them. Unelected bureaucrats in a foreign country telling us what to do. Fish.  

We send 66 billion to Westminster, lets fund the Scottish NHS instead.

16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Its all about sovereignty. Taking back control. There will be no downsides to independence. The UK needs us more than we need them. Unelected bureaucrats in a foreign country telling us what to do. Fish.  

We send 66 billion to Westminster, lets fund the Scottish NHS instead.

Whilst I understand that your post was an attempt at humour, like most jokes there is an element of truth in it.

It is indeed ironic that pretty much everything that you said was bad about Brexit, you now want for Scotland. What's more ironic is that you think it's totally different when Scotland wants it. That Brexiteers are stupid but Scottish nationalists are the height of sophistication. 

Amusing... ????

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Whilst I understand that your post was an attempt at humour, like most jokes there is an element of truth in it.

It is indeed ironic that pretty much everything that you said was bad about Brexit, you now want for Scotland. What's more ironic is that you think it's totally different when Scotland wants it. That Brexiteers are stupid but Scottish nationalists are the height of sophistication. 

Amusing... ????

But it was good enough for you and the other Brexiteers wasn't it?

16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But it was good enough for you and the other Brexiteers wasn't it?

I understood that were would be some disadvantages to Brexit. I was prepared to accept them to get away from the EU. Now I am pointing out that there will be some disadvantages (in my opinion more serious consequences than the UK leaving the EU) for Scotland if they leave the UK. I believe this is consistent and rational.

You on the other hand have spent 5 years calling Brexiteers stupid, racist, uneducated, bigoted, little Englanders etc. and yet now you want the same thing for Scotland.

Like I said, ironic. And amusing.

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

I understood that were would be some disadvantages to Brexit. I was prepared to accept them to get away from the EU. Now I am pointing out that there will be some disadvantages (in my opinion more serious consequences than the UK leaving the EU) for Scotland if they leave the UK. I believe this is consistent and rational.

You on the other hand have spent 5 years calling Brexiteers stupid, racist, uneducated, bigoted, little Englanders etc. and yet now you want the same thing for Scotland.

Like I said, ironic. And amusing.

Of course there will be issues with independence. But I am confident a country like Scotland will be able to overcome them.

You on the other hand believe Scotland is utterly incapable of running itself. You constantly try to belittle Scotland because being an English nationalist you think its your god given right to lord it over other countries.

You cant give valid or convincing reasons for remaining in the union so stopping Scotland having a referendum is the only plan you guys have. Which is pathetic.

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Of course there will be issues with independence. But I am confident a country like Scotland will be able to overcome them.

You on the other hand believe Scotland is utterly incapable of running itself. You constantly try to belittle Scotland because being an English nationalist you think its your god given right to lord it over other countries.

You cant give valid or convincing reasons for remaining in the union so stopping Scotland having a referendum is the only plan you guys have. Which is pathetic.

So you do take back all the petty insults from the past 4 years given that you guys want exactly the same thing as we did?

Yes I believe Scotland will struggle once it loses all it's trade deals and control of it's monetary policy. But as I've said many times (your memory seems about as good as sturgeon's on this), if you want to leave then be my guest I certainly won't miss you and I have no desire for England to lord over you.

My only concern is for the 55% of Scots who voted to Remain in 2014. Re-running referendums as often as possible until you get the result you want, and then declaring the subject settled is not a great example of Democracy in my opinion.

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So you do take back all the petty insults from the past 4 years given that you guys want exactly the same thing as we did?

Yes I believe Scotland will struggle once it loses all it's trade deals and control of it's monetary policy. But as I've said many times (your memory seems about as good as sturgeon's on this), if you want to leave then be my guest I certainly won't miss you and I have no desire for England to lord over you.

My only concern is for the 55% of Scots who voted to Remain in 2014. Re-running referendums as often as possible until you get the result you want, and then declaring the subject settled is not a great example of Democracy in my opinion.

So you admit that you decided to ignore the UK losing its trade deal with its biggest market and voted for Brexit but Scotland is unique in that it cant function without the same?

If you dont care if Scotland leaves then why stand in the way of a referendum? That makes no sense. If the union is so popular then remain will win. No matter how many referendums there are.

 

11 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So you admit that you decided to ignore the UK losing its trade deal with its biggest market and voted for Brexit but Scotland is unique in that it cant function without the same?

If you dont care if Scotland leaves then why stand in the way of a referendum? That makes no sense. If the union is so popular then remain will win. No matter how many referendums there are.

 

Yes I didn't think you would apologize, it takes a big man to do that.

As you know (or is sturgeon amnesia back again?) I was perfectly happy with a WTO exit and stated the fact many times. It could still happen IMO, the EU are dragging their feet ratifying the trade deal we struck. If they don't ratify I am perfectly OK with No Deal.

Scotland will suffer more since it will lose its trade deal with both the UK and the EU. It will literally be isolated up there. It's economy is a fraction of the UK economy. You don't have your own currency. We have also seen in recent months that your government is not fit for purpose. So yes, I believe it will be much worse for Scotland than it was for the UK.

I don't care about Scotland leaving - I care about Democratic principles. You can't keep re-running referendums until you win and then stop. But we saw with the Remainer parliament and calls for second referendums that your ilk are happy to reject votes and stomp over Democracy if it means getting your own way.

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So yes, I believe it will be much worse for Scotland than it was for the UK.

Worse than this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-uk-goods-exports-covid-b1813860.html

The findings show that the UK suffered a 14.7 per cent fall in goods exports – one of the largest of any major country – and also saw a slower recovery as other nations took market share in key export destinations.

Researchers at Aston University’s Centre for Business Prosperity said "considerable post-Brexit challenges" threatened to derail any recovery from the pandemic.

6 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Worse than this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-uk-goods-exports-covid-b1813860.html

The findings show that the UK suffered a 14.7 per cent fall in goods exports – one of the largest of any major country – and also saw a slower recovery as other nations took market share in key export destinations.

Researchers at Aston University’s Centre for Business Prosperity said "considerable post-Brexit challenges" threatened to derail any recovery from the pandemic.

Worse? Well that would depend if they left at the start of a global pandemic and the worst global economic crisis in decades.

Or are you suggesting that Covid19 had nothing to do with those figures? ????

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Worse? Well that would depend if they left at the start of a global pandemic and the worst global economic crisis in decades.

Or are you suggesting that Covid19 had nothing to do with those figures? ????

Ha......I could have written that reply......."thank god for the covid pandemic"......the Tory Brexiteer's mantra.

17 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Ha......I could have written that reply......."thank god for the covid pandemic"......the Tory Brexiteer's mantra.

Actually it's most inconvenient. I would have loved to have debunked all of the doomsday predictions but now due to Covid19 ripping through the global economy I've only got the EU's inept vaccine rollout scheme to ridicule.

Vexing.

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I've only got the EU's inept vaccine rollout scheme to ridicule.

Life can be a beach at times.........hope the AZ blood clot situation gets resolved quickly.

1 hour ago, Surelynot said:

Ha......I could have written that reply......."thank god for the covid pandemic"......the Tory Brexiteer's mantra.

Your link wrote that reply, the very first sentense if you would care to check. I should imagine that most, if not all world economies have taken a hit.

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Yes I didn't think you would apologize, it takes a big man to do that.

As you know (or is sturgeon amnesia back again?) I was perfectly happy with a WTO exit and stated the fact many times. It could still happen IMO, the EU are dragging their feet ratifying the trade deal we struck. If they don't ratify I am perfectly OK with No Deal.

Scotland will suffer more since it will lose its trade deal with both the UK and the EU. It will literally be isolated up there. It's economy is a fraction of the UK economy. You don't have your own currency. We have also seen in recent months that your government is not fit for purpose. So yes, I believe it will be much worse for Scotland than it was for the UK.

I don't care about Scotland leaving - I care about Democratic principles. You can't keep re-running referendums until you win and then stop. But we saw with the Remainer parliament and calls for second referendums that your ilk are happy to reject votes and stomp over Democracy if it means getting your own way.

What do I have to apologise for?

Perfectly happy with no deal? The country is in a tail spin even with Johnsons half baked oven ready deal. And you think no deal would be OK?

How do you know we will lose our access to the EU? If Brexit has shown anything its that the EU has bent over backwards to try and accommodate the UK's exit. Pretty sure the EU would be more than happy to keep trading or indeed improve the terms just as a big <deleted> to Brexitland.

Closing the border in England to Scottish trade? You understand that trade goes both ways. So you think Brexitland would isolate itself? You might want to note the Scotland exports electricity to England. Want to sit around in the dark? Hell we could switch off the supply 5 minutes before the next England game was due to start on the telly ????.

Have referendums until you get the result you want then stop? Thats exactly what you guys are doing right now. 

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

......., but let's see how Brexit pans out first, early signs are very encouraging.......

Ha. ha ha, ha bloody ha.

 

Yes Brexit got done, but Britain got done too.

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Ha. ha ha, ha bloody ha.

 

Yes Brexit got done, but Britain got done too.

Its still not done. Many things are still to be negotiated. As for freight movement. Full restrictions in accordance with Johnsons agreement have still not started. Indeed the UK is asking for another extension till next year.

UK forced to delay checks on imports from EU by six months | Brexit | The Guardian

On 3/12/2021 at 11:36 AM, Rookiescot said:

Its still not done. Many things are still to be negotiated. As for freight movement. Full restrictions in accordance with Johnsons agreement have still not started. Indeed the UK is asking for another extension till next year.

UK forced to delay checks on imports from EU by six months | Brexit | The Guardian

 

It's done in the sense that it has happened - it will not be finished for years and years though, I  doubt  in my lifetime.

So much is left unresolved, undefined and for future negotiation. Indeed there are 21 committees who will decide on and adjudicate on the future relationship. 

Europe will be around for a long time yet  and still a big influence in UK politics.

And the good ol' oven ready deal has left the UK in a position of weakness - we will see who really owns all the cards in the coming years!

 

Edited March 13, 20215 yr by tebee
wrong word