Doctor Recommends Vaccine Purchase from China, Russia

[hotchilli]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

 

The WHO was busy alleviating concern as China clandestinely was buying up the world's mask supply. More like a blunt instrument than a spear.

 

Again my favourite story. Thailand had already sequenced the SARS-2 genome from it's first patient by the time China decided to release it to the world. Obviously China knew they had a serious problem long before.  And where was WHO?

 

The WHO chairperson was being wined & dined by Xi... in China, who was telling him there was little or no infection.

Maybe next time he'll forget who backed him to get his position and do the right thing instead of sucking up..

 

[WaveHunter]

Personally speaking, I'd be very concerned about choosing the Chinese "one-shot" vaccine over western two-dose vaccines.  Even one of the Chinese two-shot vaccine has an incredibly low efficacy rate ( SInocac at 50.3%)

 

Most troubling to me are lower efficacy rates of Chinese vaccines, and the lower transparency of the Chinese developers related to testing and safety. 

 

The Chinese developers have disclosed far less safety and testing information than Western front-runners such as Biontech/Pfizer and Moderna (mNRA based vaccines) and AstroZenica and Johnson & Johnson (vector-based vaccines)

 

As for the one-shot vaccines, the Chinese developer,  CanSino's  coronavirus vaccine has an efficacy rate of 65.7% at preventing symptomatic cases based on an analysis from late-stage trials, compared to much higher efficacy rates of western counterparts.

 

Of course, CanSino’s data seems at first glance lower than the 95% protection rate provided by shots from Pfizer Inc. and Moderna Inc BUT it only requires just one shot, not two, and this is what makes it so attractive to less developed nations like Thailand, I think.

 

The primary advantage of the one-shot approach is that it is cheaper, and the logistics of delivery are simpler since, unlike Western two-dose shot approach, CanSino's one-shot approach does not require deep freezing and risk spoiling if thawed too quickly, and only half as many injections are required.

 

So, while it may be cheaper and easier for a country like Thailand to administer, is it really effective enough to allow re-opening the country to the world, and just how safe is it...really?

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by WaveHunter

[Selatan]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Personally speaking, I'd be very concerned about choosing the Chinese "one-shot" vaccine over western two-dose vaccines.  Even one of the Chinese two-shot vaccine has an incredibly low efficacy rate ( SInocac at 50.3%)

 

Most troubling to me are lower efficacy rates of Chinese vaccines, and the lower transparency of the Chinese developers related to testing and safety. 

I think Sinovac made the blunder of running the Brazilian trials with mostly medical workers, which resulted in their "lower efficacy" results being unfairly compared with others that use ordinary participants.

Sinovac official defends vaccine’s effectiveness
 

Quote

The Sinovac vaccine's overall efficacy rate in Phase 3 trials in Brazil was found to be just slightly over 50% because the clinical trial was conducted on health workers at high risk of infection, the company’s senior director, Yin Veydong, said at a press conference in Beijing, according to Bloomberg.

Yin noted that participants in clinical trials of vaccines that achieve high rates of effectiveness, such as the vaccine developed by BioNTech-Pfizer, are mostly ordinary citizens with a relatively low risk of infection.

The safest vaccines so far are the Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines - tens of millions of people have taken these 2 vaccines and not a single death has been attributed to these two inactivated vaccines so far. Also, very few reports of adverse events. Compare that to the many adverse events and deaths linked to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

[WaveHunter]

43 minutes ago, Selatan said:

I think Sinovac made the blunder of running the Brazilian trials with mostly medical workers, which resulted in their "lower efficacy" results being unfairly compared with others that use ordinary participants.

Sinovac official defends vaccine’s effectiveness
 

The safest vaccines so far are the Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines - tens of millions of people have taken these 2 vaccines and not a single death has been attributed to these two inactivated vaccines so far. Also, very few reports of adverse events. Compare that to the many adverse events and deaths linked to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

You may very well be correct about Sinovac.  This whole debate about the different vaccines is so highly motivated by geo-political bias more than it is about the actual science, which makes it very frustrating to know who or what to believe. 

 

Personally I feel like the geo-political fallout surrounding Covid is far more dangerous than the virus itself.

Edited February 11, 2021 by WaveHunter

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Selatan said:

The safest vaccines so far are the Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines - tens of millions of people have taken these 2 vaccines and not a single death has been attributed to these two inactivated vaccines so far. Also, very few reports of adverse events. Compare that to the many adverse events and deaths linked to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

Tens of millions and not a single death, wow must be the safest vaccines in the world.

 

How do you know this?

 

Because the Chinese told you so or because they've just not reported any side effects or deaths?

 

Perhaps Turkey, Indonesia or the Philippines will be better at reporting adverse reactions, or not?

[Selatan]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Tens of millions and not a single death, wow must be the safest vaccines in the world.

 

How do you know this?

 

Because the Chinese told you so or because they've just not reported any side effects or deaths?

 

Perhaps Turkey, Indonesia or the Philippines will be better at reporting adverse reactions, or not?

When a participant of the Sinovac trial in Brazil died, the Western media went all ape-crazy with the news about how dangerous China's vaccines were. Even the anti-China Brazilian president expressed his joy with the news. Turned out to be a non-event because the participant had committed suicide.

The UAE was the first country outside China to roll out Sinopharm's vaccine with around 40% of the population vaccinated already so if there were any death or severe adverse event, don't you think the very biased Western media would have seized the opportunity to badmouth China?

Many countries have started their vaccination programs with Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines. Yesterday, Mexico approved Sinovac's and Cansino's vaccine. CanSino uses the same method as AstraZeneca and Gamaleya (developer of Sputnik V).

[Selatan]

5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

You may very well be correct about Sinovac.  This whole debate about the different vaccines is so highly motivated by geo-political bias more than it is about the actual science, which makes it very frustrating to know who or what to believe. 

 

Personally I feel like the geo-political fallout surrounding Covid is far more dangerous than the virus itself.

It's a well known fact that flu vaccines with efficacy level as low as 30% gets approved for use each year in the US. So obviously a vaccine with 50% efficacy is considered good already. But too bad, as you have said, the science has been sidestepped by geo-political bias.

China's state-owned pharmaceutical giant Sinopharm couldn't even produce enough vaccine in one year for the whole population of China, so it doesn't need to bother about the export market. But because the situation in China is under control, it only exports to countries that asked for China's help. That's why you see Cambodia, Laos and some Arab, African and European countries received Sinopharm vaccines rather quickly, some in the form of donation.

Whereas Sinovac is not state-owned so countries that ordered the vaccine from this company may have chosen not to ask China for any favour. 

[Bkk Brian]

41 minutes ago, Selatan said:

The UAE was the first country outside China to roll out Sinopharm's vaccine with around 40% of the population vaccinated already so if there were any death or severe adverse event, don't you think the very biased Western media would have seized the opportunity to badmouth China?

Many countries have started their vaccination programs with Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines. Yesterday, Mexico approved Sinovac's and Cansino's vaccine. CanSino uses the same method as AstraZeneca and Gamaleya (developer of Sputnik V).

There four vaccines in the UAE for use on eligible individuals against the COVID-19 infection: one by Sinopharm, the other by Pfizer-BioNTech, the third by Sputnik V and the latest by Oxford-AstraZeneca. They've not reported any deaths from any of the vaccine brands.

 

I've seen the list of other countries who have purchased Chinese vaccines in the Global Times, China's state run propaganda outlet who by the way also say that the Sinovac's COVID-19 vaccine had an overall efficacy of just 50.4. In that list by far the majority have also purchased other western and Indian vaccines. 

[Solinvictus]

As an American, I actually feel more willing to trust Russia's vaccine and good will than corporations just trying to push it out too quickly.

[zhounan]

"vaccination already showed widespread effects in the countries where many people were inoculated. In Britain and the United States where so many people were receiving vaccines, daily new COVID-19 cases noticeably dropped from their levels during the New Year"

 

No, Mr.Yong, they only regulated the mass media.When we need more fear we increase journalistic terrorism, when we need calm we let public opinion take care of something else.

 

Let's stop giving the microphones to these lab experts and give them to the real doctors who are in contact with patients.

Edited February 11, 2021 by zhounan

[sanuk711]

Iranian cleric says Covid-19 vaccine turns people gay

Daily Mail

• Ayatollah Abbas Tabrizian made the claims on messaging platform Telegram 

• 'Don't go near those who have had the COVID vaccine,' he wrote 

• Homosexuality is a crime in Iran and is punishable by execution .

 

[polpott]

43 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

Iranian cleric says Covid-19 vaccine turns people gay

 

Daily Mail

 

• Ayatollah Abbas Tabrizian made the claims on messaging platform Telegram 

   

• 'Don't go near those who have had the COVID vaccine,' he wrote 

   

• Homosexuality is a crime in Iran and is punishable by execution .

   

 

If you're gay and take the vaccine do you become straight?

[Selatan]

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

There four vaccines in the UAE for use on eligible individuals against the COVID-19 infection: one by Sinopharm, the other by Pfizer-BioNTech, the third by Sputnik V and the latest by Oxford-AstraZeneca. They've not reported any deaths from any of the vaccine brands.

 

I've seen the list of other countries who have purchased Chinese vaccines in the Global Times, China's state run propaganda outlet who by the way also say that the Sinovac's COVID-19 vaccine had an overall efficacy of just 50.4. In that list by far the majority have also purchased other western and Indian vaccines. 

Here, just like what Prof Dr Yong had recommended, a lesson for all countries from Serbia:

Covid: How Serbia soared ahead in vaccination campaign
 

Quote

"Whether [vaccines] come from China, the US or EU - we don't care as long as they're safe and we get them as soon as possible," Prime Minster Ana Brnabic tells the BBC.

"For us, vaccination is not a geopolitical matter. It is a healthcare issue."

Also, whatever efficacy level of whatever vaccine did not matter already - too many variants have appeared. A vaccine with efficacy result of 95% 6 months ago may get a 5% efficacy rate with a new variant 6 months from now. So, just vaccinate the whole population with whatever you can get your hands on quickly to prevent new variants from appearing.

[Selatan]

Covid: How Serbia soared ahead in vaccination campaign

 

Quote

At least one EU country, Hungary, is following Serbia's example by procuring Chinese and Russian vaccines. Others may take the same approach.

For once, Serbia can enjoy showing the rest of the continent how things should be done.

 

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, Selatan said:

Here, just like what Prof Dr Yong had recommended, a lesson for all countries from Serbia:

Covid: How Serbia soared ahead in vaccination campaign
 

Also, whatever efficacy level of whatever vaccine did not matter already - too many variants have appeared. A vaccine with efficacy result of 95% 6 months ago may get a 5% efficacy rate with a new variant 6 months from now. So, just vaccinate the whole population with whatever you can get your hands on quickly to prevent new variants from appearing.

Couldn't agree more, my debate with you was asking you to explain why you think the Chinese vaccine is so much better and where you conclude that after 10 million doses there have never been any deaths with it?

[Selatan]

6 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Couldn't agree more, my debate with you was asking you to explain why you think the Chinese vaccine is so much better and where you conclude that after 10 million doses there have never been any deaths with it?

I think Sinopharm's and Sinovac's vaccines are much better because they are inactivated vaccines.

In theory, an inactivated vaccine produces an immune response just like a normal infection, so the antibodies produced may target more than one protein segment of a virus, which means it can potentially better protect against variants. Not to mention the far easier and cheaper distribution and storage requirements of this type of vaccine. No need to worry about vaccines being wasted after taken out of a fridge.

The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired.

China and other countries that have started using Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines on their people have not reported a single death involving the vaccines. As a biased farang, you can say China is not telling the truth, but what about other countries? Are they not telling the truth too?

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Selatan said:

I think Sinopharm's and Sinovac's vaccines are much better because they are inactivated vaccines.

In theory, an inactivated vaccine produces an immune response just like a normal infection, so the antibodies produced may target more than one protein segment of a virus, which means it can potentially better protect against variants. Not to mention the far easier and cheaper distribution and storage requirements of this type of vaccine. No need to worry about vaccines being wasted after taken out of a fridge.

The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired.

China and other countries that have started using Sinopharm and Sinovac vaccines on their people have not reported a single death involving the vaccines. As a biased farang, you can say China is not telling the truth, but what about other countries? Are they not telling the truth too?

Read what you've said and see who is the biased one.

[onebir]

3 hours ago, Selatan said:

I think Sinopharm's and Sinovac's vaccines are much better because they are inactivated vaccines.

In theory, an inactivated vaccine produces an immune response just like a normal infection, so the antibodies produced may target more than one protein segment of a virus, which means it can potentially better protect against variants

I don't think this makes sense a priori: AFAIK, the mRNA vaccines all use an in-host produced segment of the spike protein. This has to fit the host's ACE2 receptor for it to replicate, so it can't change much. People vaccinated with them will only produce antibodies against that.

 

By contrast, someone vaccinated with an inactivated virus vaccines will potentially produce antibodies against all of its surface proteins. Many of these can change without altering the virus' functioning much. This part of the immune response generated could be rendered irrelevant by arbitrary mutations, which, precisely because they don't affect the functioning of the virus much, aren't even considered to be separate variants or strains.

 

Unfortunately I don't think we get to find out which of these strategies, which I guess could be summarized as conserved region vs whole-genome, works best until the vaccines have been in use side-by-side for a while. (And that's assuming the politics doesn't muddy the waters.)

[Selatan]

5 hours ago, onebir said:

I don't think this makes sense a priori: AFAIK, the mRNA vaccines all use an in-host produced segment of the spike protein. This has to fit the host's ACE2 receptor for it to replicate, so it can't change much. People vaccinated with them will only produce antibodies against that.

 

By contrast, someone vaccinated with an inactivated virus vaccines will potentially produce antibodies against all of its surface proteins. Many of these can change without altering the virus' functioning much. This part of the immune response generated could be rendered irrelevant by arbitrary mutations, which, precisely because they don't affect the functioning of the virus much, aren't even considered to be separate variants or strains.

 

Unfortunately I don't think we get to find out which of these strategies, which I guess could be summarized as conserved region vs whole-genome, works best until the vaccines have been in use side-by-side for a while. (And that's assuming the politics doesn't muddy the waters.)

Depending too much on targeting just the spike protein has produced a casualty already - the AstraZeneca vaccine, designed by placing the spike protein fragment into an adenovirus, had failed against the South African variant, which has mutated spike proteins.

Seven things to know about COVID-19 variants in Africa
 

Quote

Currently, most COVID-19 vaccines target the spike protein. There are some vaccines such as inactivated virus vaccines developed in China that target the whole virus. Mutations may reduce vaccine efficacy directed against the spike protein but will not obliterate their effects. As explained, this is because the immune responses they induce target more than a single part of the spike protein. Inactivated vaccines target an even greater array of viral proteins, inducing several protective immune responses. This instils redundancy in the protective immune responses.

Antibodies do not just work by blocking viruses from entering cells. They also mark infected cells for destruction, so because an inactivated vaccines produces more than one antibody, it has a higher chance against variants.