UK QROPS Pension

[saminoz]

I moved my service pension from the UK to Gibraltar under QROPS, took the max draw down, built a house and all was well.

Then I noticed my annual payments going down and down, largely due to the pension fund managers taking $4 for every $6  paid to me!!!

When the rules changed to allow you to completely withdraw the full amount, I decided to do that as I can generate more income with ti than I was getting.

However, you couldn't withdraw the full amount in Gibraltar, for some reason, so I had to transfer the fuill amount to a new scheme in malta.

Long story short, they paid out within 72 hours of the fund arriving in Malta but witheld 35% due to there being no double taxation agreement with Thailand (I have been non-resident in the UK for 20 years).

Is it possible to get a Tax residence Certificate here in Thailand when on a retirement extension (have been for years).

We don't pay tax on income earned abroad and don't pay tax on pensions incoming.

If I was working here, I would pay tax.

Just asking.

Advice appreciated.

[KannikaP]

I moved my private UK Pensions to a QROPS based in Guernsey on the advice of a Financial Advisor based in Pattaya. What a rip off merchant.

He made £1000s,

My funds kept falling in value, exhorbitant on-going charges, and I cannot shut the policy down until it is almost worthless. 

[Tuvoc]

My managed SIPP is still sitting in the UK and that is where it will stay. No need to move it. My IFA says he has several clients who have retired to Thailand.  Once I retire permanently to Thailand my IFA says he will obtain something from HMRC on my behalf to give to the pension provider so that no tax is deducted at source in the UK on drawdowns.  When brought to Thailand,  they are not taxed here either. (great exemption, overseas earnings are only taxed here if brought into Thailand same year as earned). 

[topt]

10 minutes ago, Tuvoc said:

Once I retire permanently to Thailand my IFA says he will obtain something from HMRC on my behalf to give to the pension provider so that no tax is deducted at source in the UK on drawdowns. 

Presumably however that depends on your overall income in the year you take the drawdown as I thought only the first 25% was free of tax? 

[Tuvoc]

2 hours ago, topt said:

Presumably however that depends on your overall income in the year you take the drawdown as I thought only the first 25% was free of tax? 

 

No, no tax deducted even after the first 25% is what I was told. The IFA didn't give me the exact details, but  I assume that the double-tax treaty between UK and Thailand passes the obligation on to Thailand to tax it if you're resident there and not resident in UK. So  I assume the HMRC certificate is a zero tax code to confirm your non-resident status and that removes the obligation for the pension fund to deduct tax at source.  I haven't permanently left the UK yet though so it isn't relevant for me yet. Not sure how a part-year is handled.

 

I was told a few months ago that I can also get the entire pot tax free by relocating to New Zealand and transferring it there, and then it can be withdrawn free of tax there. But my future is in Thailand, not there. And the rules change so fast around pensions, that might have changed.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Tuvoc

[glegolo]

26 minutes ago, Tuvoc said:

 

No, no tax deducted even after the first 25% is what I was told. The IFA didn't give me the exact details, but  I assume that the double-tax treaty between UK and Thailand passes the obligation on to Thailand to tax it if you're resident there and not resident in UK. So  I assume the HMRC certificate is a zero tax code to confirm your non-resident status and that removes the obligation for the pension fund to deduct tax at source.  I haven't permanently left the UK yet though so it isn't relevant for me yet. Not sure how a part-year is handled.

 

I was told a few months ago that I can also get the entire pot tax free by relocating to New Zealand and transferring it there, and then it can be withdrawn free of tax there. But my future is in Thailand, not there. And the rules change so fast around pensions, that might have changed.

This "talk" about pensions from UK is obviously over my head... But can mention that what regards paying taxes for pension in Thailand. The double-tax-agreement between Sweden and Thailand clearly says that "where money is earned is where tax is to be paid" Very easy. So there is NEVER a slight chance in hell that we pay taxes in Thailand on our swedish pension even if we are citizens or having resedence in Thailand.

 

glegolo

[topt]

27 minutes ago, Tuvoc said:

The IFA didn't give me the exact details, but  I assume that the double-tax treaty between UK and Thailand passes the obligation on to Thailand to tax it if you're resident there and not resident in UK. So  I assume the HMRC certificate is a zero tax code to confirm your non-resident status and that removes the obligation for the pension fund to deduct tax at source.

The DTA between UK and Thailand specifically excludes pension income - other than certain govt pensions and that does not mean the State pension.

See page 34 and comments on right - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

I am sure we have discussed this previously?

 

If not deducted at source than unless below the personal allowance I would have thought you would have had to submit a tax return as from what I have read I don't think, unless going QROPS, you can get away with it untaxed. Even then I think since 2017 HMRC take 25% if you move it offshore.

 

From this guide which may or may not be accurate.........

https://www.expertsforexpats.com/expat-pensions/sipp-for-british-expats/

 

Quote

Thirdly, when drawing an income from your SIPP, while you will be subject to the UK personal allowance and the 25% pension commencement lump sum, you will still be subject to UK income tax when drawing funds from your pension. As previously mentioned, if you no longer live in the UK, your income may also be subject to tax in your country of residence as well so it’s important to understand the local tax rules, as well as those in the UK before making a decision about how to draw an income from a SIPP.

So if this is wrong and you find you can avoid any tax legally then please let us know as i think many posters on here would be interested ????

[topt]

7 hours ago, saminoz said:

Is it possible to get a Tax residence Certificate here in Thailand when on a retirement extension (have been for years).

If you mean a TIN (Tax ID no.) then yes. Go along to your local revenue office (with a Thai speaker if you don't speak Thai) and say you want one for reclaiming tax on bank interest.

If you want something more than that there have been a few topics on here and from memory mixed success. Again go to your local revenue office and enquire about what you can get to satisfy the Maltesers.......  

[UKresonant]

The UK and QROPS don't mix well, though there no doubt some companies that are regulation in order.

 

The people that have transferred to a QROPS, which was then found to be dodgy as far  as HMRC  regulation, loosing most of their pension AND owing HMRC 55% penalty charge of the amount transferred, is just to scary. ????

 

Wishing all well, that they may recover their positions.

Edited March 27, 2021 by UKresonant

[Andycoops]

I have kept things simple and was told by HMRC that as my company pension arises in the UK, I have to pay UK income tax as I will on my state pension next year.

I was declared non resident and not ordinarily resident after 2 years of retiring here.

I initially sent in annual forms but as my status tax wise remained unchanged, I asked for it to be stopped and they agreed and haven't sent in a tax form for 9 years now.

[Tuvoc]

7 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

I have kept things simple and was told by HMRC that as my company pension arises in the UK, I have to pay UK income tax as I will on my state pension next year.

 

I'll take professional advice on it when the time comes to make sure. At the moment I'm relying on my IFA who says he has a number of clients who have retired to Thailand and he knows how the tax is handled (supposedly). I might be wrong but I think there may be a difference between an occupational pension that pays you a fixed monthly sum, and drawdowns from a SIPP investment pension.

[Sophon]

Yes, it is possible to get a certificate of tax residency from the Thai Revenue department even when on a retirement extension (I have done so several times). However, one of the requirements is that you have filed an income tax return but it is enough if you just file a return for interest income from your Thai bank account(s).

 

Here are the requirements:
The Revenue department

[fulhamster]

22 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I moved my private UK Pensions to a QROPS based in Guernsey on the advice of a Financial Advisor based in Pattaya. What a rip off merchant.

He made £1000s,

My funds kept falling in value, exhorbitant on-going charges, and I cannot shut the policy down until it is almost worthless. 

I was approached by a couple of QROPS reps, they used to move around the Pattaya golf groups,

All sounded great, until I worked out that it would take a massive percentage of any returns to get a liveable income.

Loads of hidden costs, 1% here, 1% there, fixed fees etc

 

When I started to ask questions, they soon disappeared off to another golf group.

Still see one of them occasionally, he leaves as soon as he is seen

[dabhand]

Might be worth contacting Fry Group. They are a long established UK company that advise on such issues. They have an office in Singapore. Their name has been mentioned by posters on Thavisa a few times in the past, including from me. My contact with them was attended to very professionally and I had no complaints. Depending on the amount involved, they may be worth a shot. But, as with all such matters, caveat emptor.