Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Artisi]

Hi guys, anybody knows the answer to questions in the post above?

There is no complicated outcome - you can hold dual citizenship which implies 2 passports if you require them.

[clockworkorange]

Hi guys, anybody knows the answer to questions in the post above?

There is no complicated outcome - you can hold dual citizenship which implies 2 passports if you require them.

That's right - two passports are quite OK - I've never had any questions asked by either the airline or Thai immigration. All you have to do is:

When leaving Thailand: Show show whatever non Thai passport you have to the airline at check in so that they can verify that you don't need a visa to go to your destination, then use your Thai passport to pass through Thai immigration, then use your non Thai passport to pass through immigration at your destination

When entering Thailand, the process is reversed: Thai passport at check in, foreign passport at departure immigration, Thai passport at Thai immigration on arrival

It's really very easy.

Some people have reported Thai immigration insisting that a foreign passport be used to enter Thailand (trying to refuse the Thai one). This has never happened to me, and if it did I would ask to see a supervisor because there is no legal way that Thai immigration can deny entry to a Thai passport holder.

[MacWalen]

Thank you for the answer! Sounds good, I presume that if you already have 2 passports having a third would not make a difference.

[clockworkorange]

Thank you for the answer! Sounds good, I presume that if you already have 2 passports having a third would not make a difference.

No difference at all.

One caveat: If you are naturalising, keep your original name. While switching passports between departure and arrival is easy, I've never tried switching names and I'm not quite sure how that would work because I have the same name in both my Thai and non-Thai passports.

[Arkady]

I'm coming up on my 3 years in Thailand so hubby & I started getting our papers together for my citizenship app.

However we've been absolutely stone-walled at the Amphur trying to get a yellow tabian baan. The Amphur staff said my visa class makes me ineligible. According to them I need to enter Thailand on a visa based on marriage. I am currently on a company visa because I my employer transferred me to work here.

There aren't too many cases of farang women with Thai husbands in our country Isaan Amphur, so I'm inclined to think they gave me the 'easy answer' rather than the 'correct answer'. There was no consultation of any regulations and the woman at the desk just stared at hubby disdainfully and waved him away when he asked if she could double-check with her superior.

Unfortunately our district office is small with only a handful of staff. So we aren't likely to see anyone different if we go back and try again... where the heck can we go to check this info?

P.S. Although the original posts in this thread were about men applying for PR/citizenship, this thread is invaluable for women married to Thai men & researching Thai citizenship as the whole system works differently for us. Wonder if the mods would consider renaming this thread something like 'Thai citizenship info for western women married to Thai man' and pinning it at the top of the forum?

Under Section 21 of the Civil Registration Act of 2008 district offices are now supposed to issue tabien baan for any foreigners who are legally in Thailand:

Section 21. Section 38 of the Civil Registration Act B.E. 2534 shall be

repealed and replaced by the following:

“Section 38. The district or local registrar shall issue a household registration

for persons without Thai nationality having been permitted to stay temporarily and

those having been giving leniency for temporary residence in the Thai Kingdom as a

special case in accordance with law on immigration and the declaration of the Cabinet

and their children born within the Thai Kingdom. In a case of permission of

temporary residence overdue, the registrar shall immediately dispose of such persons.

The Director of Central Registration shall make profile registration for persons

without Thai nationality besides those under paragraph one in accordance with the

declaration of the Cabinet.

Registrations under paragraph one and two shall lie in the manner prescribed

in the regulations under the discretion of the Director of Central Registration.”

This seems to be broad enough even to include tourists which is obviously not the intention. On the other hand it is clearly intended to include stateless persons like hill tribe people but I have seen reports of them being rejected by district officers who deny the existence of this new provision. It also seems to include those on non-immigrant, marriage or retirement visas.

BTW you could get a marriage visa which also entitles you to have a work permit, if you don't mind having to get your husband to accompany you to Immigration for all extensions.

Dealing with obtuse and ignorant district office officials seems to be a problem as many don't know the law and/or prefer to make up their own rules which are usually not beneficial to foreigners. They are allowed a lot of freedom and I don't know of any appeals procedure from their arbitrary decisions. Maybe you can go the Local Administration Dept in the Interior Ministry, the dept responsible for district offices, and find some one who can advise you how to get a tabien baan, in the light of the 2008 Civil Registration Act. Alternatively you could go the marriage visa route when your non-immigrant visa and WP expire.

I have uploaded the 2008 Civil Registration Act in English and Thai versions in case any one is interested.

Thailand_Civil_Registration_ActBE_2551No2_en_.pdf

Thailand_Civil_Registration_ActBE_2551No2_th_.pdf

Edited December 17, 2009 by Arkady

[Arkady]

My question is what if you said that you do have two passports! What would the immigration do? Also if you leave the country and they ask you where you go, you say you go to US and they ask you where is a US visa in your Thai passport? It is not hard to find out that you still hold two passports. If they do find out will they take your Thai passport away? What is the possible outcome?

This has been discussed earlier in this thread and elsewhere but it is still an interesting and important question. The Nationality Act is vague on this point but does nonetheless contain some apparently troubling provisions including the grounds for revocation of nationality of naturalized Thais:

"Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(1) The naturalisation was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information."

Para 2 provides the right to revoke nationality where there is evidence of using a former nationality. On the other hand neither the Act nor the ministerial regulations say that the former nationalilty should be surrendered after naturalisation as Thai has taken place, nor that dual nationality is prohibited, nor does it define what is meant by "making use of his former nationality". Travelling to another country without getting a visa in one's Thai passport is clearly making use of the former nationality in the broad sense but it has no impact on Thailand or its legal system and the naturalized Thai is technically only making use of the former nationality outside Thailand in that case. A naturalized Thai who used his former nationalilty to enter Thailand under a different name to avoid criminal or civil charges or military service on the other hand would clearly be using the former nationality within Thailand in a way that does impinge on the Thai legal system.

Current practice seems to be that Immigration officers often (but not always) ask dual nationals if they have another passport when they are leaving Thailand for a country for which Thais need to visa, although this seems to be only out of concern that they might be turned back if they need a visa.

The negative seems to be that the law is contradictory but does seem to provide a means for a change of attitude towards naturalized Thais. While the government may wish to do this to make things more difficult for dual national Malay Thais in the Deep South, the law doesn't actually provide for this. This is because the provisions for revocation of nationality apply only to naturalized Thais and those who are Thai by birth, i.e. born in Thailand to alien parents. There is no legal way to revoke the nationality of any one who is Thai by descent, i.e. has at least one Thai parent. Nearly all the Malay Thais in the South are Thai by descent and therefore it is not possible to use these provisions against them, although the Malaysians could deal with them, if they wanted to, as they have specific prohibitions against dual nationality.

While virtually anything is possible in Thailand, including a crack down on naturalized Thais exiting Thailand on route for the US without US visas in their Thai passports, I see this as unlikely. This is because a crack down of this nature would net a large number of dual nationals who are Thai by descent, including thousands of look krung, and can't be penalized. Having put naturalized Thais through such detailed application and vetting procedures, but not required them to show evidence of former nationality after naturalization (as some countries do) it would be odd to strip their nationality on an ambiguous point of law.

What cannot be discounted is a future change of The Nationality Act that might specifically make dual nationality illegal. To be meaningful and have an impact on the security situation in the South this provision would have to apply to dual nationals who are Thai by descent as well, i.e. acquiring or holding another nationalitly would automatically made the Thai nationality invalid. I think there would be resistance to this, since it would make life difficult for many dual national hi-so Thais, as well as the thousands of look krung with Thai mothers who became entitled to Thai nationalilty as a result of The Nationality Act of 1992. The trend on nationality in the 1992 and 2008 Acts has been creeping liberalization and there is obviously an influential body of opinion that favours this. A more draconian approach towards nationality would reminiscient of Revolutionary Decree 337 in 1971 which suddenly stripped citizenship from thousands of Thais of Chinese, Indochinese and other origins born in the Kingdom to alien parents and prevented Thai women from passing on their nationality to their offspring. I believe that many Interior Ministry bureaucrats believe that this legislation was shameful and, since the early 90s they have been advising successive governments to repeal the decree bit by bit. The Nationality Act of 2008 effectively repealed the last remnants of Revolutionary Decree 337, i.e. the right to Thai nationality for those born in the Kingdom to alien parents, even though this seems to be retroactive in practice only for those born in Thailand up till 1992. It is nonetheless a big step for many stateless people, if they can figure out how to persuade district officers to issue them with ID cards in accordance with the law.

Opinion amongst farang naturalized Thais seems divided. I know some who get visas to travel to Western countries to play safe or (expensively and tediously) avoid the issue by flying via Hong Kong or Singapore, while others seem to breeze through Suwarnaphumi with a visaless Thai passport without problems. The loophole for Brits to get certificates of entitlement (permanent UK residence) stamped in their Thai passports is now closed, as these are no longer issued to British dual nationals. It is a decision for all to make when they get their Thai nationality, if they plan to visit Western countries directly from Thailand.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Arkady

[clockworkorange]

Arkady - you are quite right and this is a very illuminating view on the word of the law and its interesting ambiguities, such as what constitutes 'use of a foreign nationality.' As a dual national myself, I have never used my foreign nationality in Thailand, but use it out of the country as it facilitates travel without the need to apply for visas. While in Thailand, I only use my Thai nationality, and I have never had even the smallest hint of a problem using two passports for travel in the way that I described earlier in this thread. I travel frequently on both a regional and long-haul (to the western world) basis. Apart from raised eyebrows, jokes, and on one occasion being asked to show my UK passport by Thai immigration on departure (I was travelling to the US), I always breeze through Thai immigration in both directions.

As you say, a certificate of entitlement is no longer issued by the UK authorities, yet the only dual nationals I know who go to all the trouble getting foreign visas in their Thai passports are those who have a Thai name that differs from their original name. When I applied for Thai nationality, the requirement to take a Thai name was no longer in force, so I kept my original name and would advise others who wish to travel on two passports to do likewise.

Of course, Thailand could change the rules and ban dual nationality altogether, potentially leaving people like me with a hard choice to make, but it hasn't done so yet nor is there any move that I can see to make this happen. This is Thailand, and anything can happen, but nothing has happened yet.

The Thai Nationality Act, with its provisions to strip nationality makes rather scary reading, but the way it is and has been implemented is straightforward and reasonable. I don't know anyone who has been the subject of any scrutiny, yet alone lost their Thai citizenship. The ambiguous provision to strip Thai nationality for using another nationality is likely there for the reasons you stated: to prevent criminals from hiding behind another identity. Any other use of this ambiguous paragraph 2 to revoke nationality would seem unlikely (we have heard of none), misinterpreted (they never intended it to include use of a foreign nationality while abroad) and/or there only to be invoked only in the most extreme circumstances where national security is at stake.

Like you say there are various hi-so cases of dual nationals who would likely stall any move to abolish the practice.

Edited December 18, 2009 by thaiphoon
No need to quote post above - Use Fast Reply - thaiphoon

[samran]

Arkady,

excellent analysis as always.

Like you say there are various hi-so cases of dual nationals who would likely stall any move to abolish the practice.

I suspect, that given the current Thai PM and Finance Minister would both qualify for British Nationality by birth, you'd find very little momentum for a change from this administration on that front.

On the other side of politics, Thaksin's son was born in the US and is a US citizen.

Add to that, numerous influential Thai's with dual nationality, and I don't think there will be any real momentum to ban dual nationaity. As Arkady said, the trend for the past 2 decades has been liberalisation.

[Arkady]

Another curious aspect of The Nationality Act in this area is that a woman who obtains Thai nationality as a result of being married to Thai man cannot have her nationality revoked under Section 19. Her Thai nationality can only be revoked if the information provided about her marriage turns out to be false. In fact the nationality of a foreign women who obtains Thai nationality through marriage to a Thai man who is Thai through naturalization or through birth in Thailand to alien parents seems theoretically more secure than that of her husband!

[Arkady]

As you say, a certificate of entitlement is no longer issued by the UK authorities, yet the only dual nationals I know who go to all the trouble getting foreign visas in their Thai passports are those who have a Thai name that differs from their original name. When I applied for Thai nationality, the requirement to take a Thai name was no longer in force, so I kept my original name and would advise others who wish to travel on two passports to do likewise.

Naturalized Thais I know who get visas to go to the US etc got their nationality in the days when you had to take a Thai name. That must be an additional consideration for them as you say. I once met an American lawyer who had reclaimed her Thai nationality by birth in Thailand and had managed to take a Thai name only one or two letters different to her American name. She said she had successfully switched passports on trips to the US without problem but she said she was going to get an affidavit from the American Embassy that she was the same person as the holder of her Thai passport to avoid potential problems. I haven't seen her since then and I don't know if an affidavit would help people who have completely different Thai names in all cases.

I would think that, if they really wanted to prevent the use of former nationalities by naturalized Thais they wouldn't allow them to keep their original names. The Special Branch people who handle the nationality applications told me they understand that applicants prefer to keep their own names these days for convenience of travel overseas.

Clockwork Orange, can you tell what happens to middle names, if you want to keep your own name. Do you keep those too or do you shorten your Thai name to just your first name and family name. Obviously the middle names are all there in Thai on your alien book, tabien baan etc when you are a PR. The problem I find is that Thais get confused as which one is the family name and you have to use all of them for bank accounts etc. Thai civil registration law recently allowed Thais to register a middle name but only one I think and many foreigners have several. The idea is that you are supposed to have a unique family name, so middle names are not really necessary.

[Arkady]

I have just read something troubling in the literature I picked recently from Special Branch. The hand out listing the documents required to apply for Thai nationality has had one item added so that there are now 18 points. Point 17 now reads in my own translation, "Affidavit from embassy or consulate confirming the applicant’s intention to renounce his current nationality when his application for Thai nationality is approved." The Special Branch website does not incorporate this significant change yet and is still showing the previous list of documents with only 17 points. Perhaps the "creeping liberalisation" has now come to end, at least in the case of naturalized Thais, or perhaps it was just wishful thinking. Since the 2008 Nationality Act theoretically opened the way for foreign men married to Thais to apply for Thai nationality without five years' residence or knowledge of the Thai language, this may be the subtle backlash from the bureaucrats against the lawmakers to prevent a flood of thousands applicants with Thai wives. Special Branch's handouts still make no mention of any relaxed requirements for male applicants with Thai wives and still require permanent residence documents for all males but perhaps the Interior Ministry saw the writing on the wall.

I am not sure how this new documentary requirement will work. Will embassies provide such a document? They are not really in a position to certify what intentions their citizens may have and may refuse. On the other hand, most are quite happy to provide a certificate of freedom to marry, as required by the Thai authorities, even though it is usually just an affidavit by the citizen and the embassy is not interested in checking marital records at home to ensure the citizen is single. It might at any rate take embassies some time to find out about this new citizenship requirement and decide how to deal with it which could involve delays for those who still wish to apply. Countries, such as Norway and maybe other Scandinavian countries, that don't allow dual citizenship actually follow up to ensure that naturalized citizens really cancel their former nationalities after they have been naturalized. Maybe Thailand will do the same. Some countries allow citizens to reclaim their nationality (once in the case of the UK) after renouncing it to gain another citizenship but this is an onerous and probably costly process that few would want to go through and would also involve a period without the former nationality while waiting to get it back again. I don't know what the ramifications will be for those who have already been naturalized - whether things might be made more difficult for them or just for those who have signed the affidavit. As we know the law contains an ambiguous clause allowing revocation of nationality from naturalized Thais using their former nationality. Even those willing to get visas to travel might not be able to do so to visit their home countries, if they retain their former nationality. The British COE loophole is now closed, as mentioned above, although I suppose the embassy might issue a tourist visa to a British citizen in his Thai passport, if he really wanted it. The US will not issue visas to its citizens, since it requires them to enter and leave the US on their US passports. The US Embassy and maybe others make no concessions to dual Thai/ Western nationals applying for visas in their Thai passports. They are told that, if they want a visa as a Thai citizen, they must pass the same scrutiny as any other Thai and could be rejected, even though they could still visit the US under the visa waiver program using their other passport. Finally, is paper trail following going to something that Immigration will start doing. Countries like Malaysia and Zimbabwe are known to scrutinise passports of any one they don't like the look of likely to have a second passport (i.e. Chinese in Malaysia and whites in Zimbabwe) to see if they can find evidence of a gap in travel in the passport that might indicate use of another passport. This makes

I am beginning to wonder, if I procrastinated a few years too many and if it is now worth applying for.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Arkady

[Maestro]

…Point 17 now reads in my own translation, "Affidavit from embassy or consulate confirming the applicant’s intention to renounce his current nationality when his application for Thai nationality is approved

…

I am not sure how this new documentary requirement will work. Will embassies provide such a document? They are not really in a position to certify what intentions their citizens may have and may refuse…

I think it would be an affidavit written by the applicant for Thai citizenship, not by the consulate, on which the consulate authenticates the signature but does not certify the contents.

Still, it is a noteworthy development and I wonder if there was a Ministerial Regulations to that effect published in the Royal Gazette. I doubt that Special Branch (Royal Thai Police) has the legal authority to introduce such new requirement on its own. From the Nationality Act:

Section 12. Any person being desirous of applying for naturalisation as a Thai, shall file an application with the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

--

Maestro

[Arkady]

Maestro, it is a new ministerial regulation from the Interior Ministry dated 14 October 2009, a two page document updating the guidelines on applications for naturalization and the list of documents required. The new requirement is included in the guidelines with the same wording as point 7, as well as being point 17 in the list of documents. I post a scan but my scanner is on the blink. (The only other change I spotted compared to the old regulations that are still up on Special Branch’s website is that the minimum salary for those with Thai wives or children has been increased from 30,000 per month to 40,000.)

As you say, there is no document that an embassy could provide other than an affidavit that the applicant intends to renounce his citizenship after his Thai citizenship is granted, certified that it was signed in front of the consul. None of them would allow their citizens to formally renounce citizenship without evidence that the new citizenship is granted or will be granted immediately after the renunciation. I suppose consulates will certify signatures on most affidavits that appear above board and happily collect their fees, as they do with the pointless “freedom to marry” affidavits. The questions this new requirement brings to mind are:

1. Will they follow up and require proof of renunciation within a certain period after they issue the certificate of naturalization, or even before it can be issued?

2. Will they require affidavits and/or proof of renunciation from applicants awaiting approval who applied under the previous regulations?

3. Will Immigration be instructed to try to catch naturalized Thais using another passport?

[clockworkorange]

Clockwork Orange, can you tell what happens to middle names, if you want to keep your own name. Do you keep those too or do you shorten your Thai name to just your first name and family name. Obviously the middle names are all there in Thai on your alien book, tabien baan etc when you are a PR. The problem I find is that Thais get confused as which one is the family name and you have to use all of them for bank accounts etc. Thai civil registration law recently allowed Thais to register a middle name but only one I think and many foreigners have several. The idea is that you are supposed to have a unique family name, so middle names are not really necessary.

Middle names are a constant source of confusion in Thailand, and I have two of them which makes matters worse.

When I applied for Thi citizenship, I had to choose a Thai name at the Ampher, but was never made to use it because the regulations were changed so that no name change was included in the naturalisation process. I did ask Special Branch to drop my middle names but they wouldn't do it, insisting that my name should remain identical through the process but that I could change it any time after natualisation.

I ended up with an ID card and a passport bearing my middle names, which I have kept ever since although I could easily get my middle names deleted at the Ampher I suppose.

It still causes confusion but I live with it.

[clockworkorange]

I can understand someone wanting to hold a Thai passport, though I cant grasp why anyone would attempt to be considered Thai, cause ultimately, that's never going to happen. Neither Farangs nor Thais are likely to ever think of a blue eyes American chap being 'Thai' , rather an American chap who happens to hold a Thai passport.

Not true. As a Thai citizen I enjoy all the rights that the Thais do. Most people are flattered and amused that a farang would want to be a Thai, and are very nice about the whole thing.

If you go around with a chip on your shoulder, you stand more chance of being discriminated against.

[clockworkorange]

1. Will they follow up and require proof of renunciation within a certain period after they issue the certificate of naturalization, or even before it can be issued?

2. Will they require affidavits and/or proof of renunciation from applicants awaiting approval who applied under the previous regulations?

3. Will Immigration be instructed to try to catch naturalized Thais using another passport

This is indeed very bad news for anyone considering to apply, and we will have to see how these new rules are actually implemented. Certainly this will be a big disappointment to many people, who will no doubt be deterred from applying at the thought of having to renounce their original nationality.

More interesting, as you point out, will be the mechanism by which embassies handle this new requirement, and what effect (if any) it will have on pending applications.

On your question of whether immigration will be instructed to catch dual nationals, there are so many Thais in high places that would be affected ....

[Arkady]

1. Will they follow up and require proof of renunciation within a certain period after they issue the certificate of naturalization, or even before it can be issued?

2. Will they require affidavits and/or proof of renunciation from applicants awaiting approval who applied under the previous regulations?

3. Will Immigration be instructed to try to catch naturalized Thais using another passport

This is indeed very bad news for anyone considering to apply, and we will have to see how these new rules are actually implemented. Certainly this will be a big disappointment to many people, who will no doubt be deterred from applying at the thought of having to renounce their original nationality.

More interesting, as you point out, will be the mechanism by which embassies handle this new requirement, and what effect (if any) it will have on pending applications.

On your question of whether immigration will be instructed to catch dual nationals, there are so many Thais in high places that would be affected ....

Thanks for your interesting reply about middle names. I also have two which guarantees confusion. One of them was spelled by Immigration with a mai ek that probably shouldn't be there in my residence book and I often have to ask for documents to be corrected to be in line with the official Thai spelling of my name.

I also doubt that this will be implemented strictly by Immigration, unless there are more specific legal changes, but it would be a sword of Damocles hanging over anyone who has been made to pledge to renounce his former nationality as part of the naturalization process. Without a change in the Nationality Act, the Thais in high places should not be materially affected because there is no way their nationality can be revoked, if they are Thai by descent from Thai parents, although they and thousands of look krung might get harrassed by Immigration. Since COEs are no longer available, I wonder if Brits can get multiple year tourist visas in their Thai passports with minimum hassle.

I expect many people will lose interest in applying, as soon as they see the new requirement and the intention may well be to appear more liberal and less discriminatory towards women through the letter of the statutory law, while in practice using the small print of ministerial regulations as a means to raise the bar very significantly and discourage applications. As you say, we will have to see how embassies respond. It might end up being a catch 22 where Special Branch won't accept the application without a binding renunciation document that embassies refuse to provide without a letter confirming that Thai citizenship has been approved subject only to this last document. Then the application process would have been successfully shut down. More likely though some kind of non-binding affidavit will be available at most embassies that will be acceptable to the Interior Ministry, since only evidence of the intention to renounce is required, and. Then, if any one still has a mind to proceed, we will have to see if another regulation comes out requiring an official renunciation certicate before the Thai naturalization certificate can be issued, or soon afterwards.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Arkady

[clockworkorange]

Then the application process would have been successfully shut down. More likely some kind of non-binding affidavit will be available at most embassies that will be acceptable to the Interior Ministry and, if any one still has a mind to proceed, we will have to see if another regulation comes out requiring an official renunciation certicate before the Thai naturalization certificate can be issued.

To put this into context one only has to consider recent events. Since 2006, before the military coup, no PR applications have been approved - people are applying and being held in limbo, but are not getting PR. In addition, the age-old practice of visa running has become all but impossible, back-to-back tourist visas are being phased out and a varety of new regulations governing foreign ownership of businesses has been introduced.

I think it's a shame. As you say, the requirement to renounce original nationality will effectively shut down the application process. Most people I know like yourself who were procrastinating applying for Thai citizenship were expecting it to get easier, when in fact the opposite has happened.

Just an aside, and just my opinion, I always find it rather ironic to see so many farangs in favour of the new government, when that very same government makes it so historically difficult for them to remain in Thailand.

[clockworkorange]

The right to vote illustrates another example of patchy implementation of the Thai Nationalty Act, which states that a naturalised Thai is not entitled to vote until he or she has held Thai citizenship for five years.

I was rather surprised to find that my name was placed in the electoral roll by my Ampher, effectively giving me the vote. The Ampher, it seems, either does not know the rules, or there is no mechanism to query the Ampher database in a way that prevents the names those Thais who have been Thai for less than five years from being transferred to the electoral roll.

[GarryP]

Why the distinction between naturalised Thais and Thais by birth? If you have dual citizenship the law should apply equally. The new regulation is clearly discriminatory and I would suggest in conflict with the Constitution.

[Arkady]

Why the distinction between naturalised Thais and Thais by birth? If you have dual citizenship the law should apply equally. The new regulation is clearly discriminatory and I would suggest in conflict with the Constitution.

Thais by birth (in Thailand to two alien parents - most were born before the change in the law in 1971) and naturalized Thais are actually in the same boat in that their Thai nationalilty can be revoked under the Nationality Act. The law makes no provision for revocation of nationality of Thais by descent (born to a Thai parent or parents anywhere in the world). Many people have pointed out that this inconsistent with the constitution which provides for equal treatment of all Thai citizens. But the constitution itself is flawed in this respect as it doesn't allow naturalized Thais to vote for their first five years or hold public office ever. NGOs, in particular, have complained that the Thai citizenship grudgingly handed out to hill tribe people born in Thailand is a second class citizenship at variance with the constitution because it can be revoked at the discretion of the minister without judicial process for vague things like behaviour endangering public morality or national security. Hill tribe people are particularly vulnerable as they are often forced by poverty to do things like prostitution that would clearly fit the bill. The Nationality Act has I think since the first one had the provisions for revocation of nationality, including the clause about use of a former nationality. So it will be argued that they have not changed the law but have just fine tuned the ministerial regulations to better enforce the law and protect national security. I happen to agree with you that countries should only have one class of citizenship but unfortunately discrimination against naturlized citizens is rather common throughout the world. The Philippines has recently enacted to permit dual citizenship to Filipinos born to Filipino parents but not for naturalized Filipinos and even the US does not permit a naturalized American to be president.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Arkady

[Arkady]

Then the application process would have been successfully shut down. More likely some kind of non-binding affidavit will be available at most embassies that will be acceptable to the Interior Ministry and, if any one still has a mind to proceed, we will have to see if another regulation comes out requiring an official renunciation certicate before the Thai naturalization certificate can be issued.

To put this into context one only has to consider recent events. Since 2006, before the military coup, no PR applications have been approved - people are applying and being held in limbo, but are not getting PR. In addition, the age-old practice of visa running has become all but impossible, back-to-back tourist visas are being phased out and a varety of new regulations governing foreign ownership of businesses has been introduced.

I think it's a shame. As you say, the requirement to renounce original nationality will effectively shut down the application process. Most people I know like yourself who were procrastinating applying for Thai citizenship were expecting it to get easier, when in fact the opposite has happened.

Just an aside, and just my opinion, I always find it rather ironic to see so many farangs in favour of the new government, when that very same government makes it so historically difficult for them to remain in Thailand.

It really seems to be one step forward and 15 steps back. The only real improvements over the last decade or two are: the end of tax clearance to leave the country; multiple re-entry visas; the one-stop service (but now only for directors or heads of dept of large companies only); right of Thai women to pass nationality on to their children; right of Thai women married to foreigners to buy land. The last two are huge improvements and do indirectly benefit foreign men married to Thais but that was unintentional and there are now even signs of backtracking on the land issue. Against that we have: revival of an anachronistic revolutionary decree requiring 90 day reporting; reduction of transit visas to 14 days for surface arrivals; systematic plugging of all loopholes for visa runners; regular changes of the regulations for retirement and marriage visas that seem cynically designed for the sole purpose of catching people wrong-footed;400,000 baht required in bank account for renewal of non-imm visa (just reported by some one in TV, altho it might just be the work of a rogue official); syphilis tests for new work permit applications; various crack downs on part foreign owned companies that might be in contravention of the archaic Foreign Business Act and Land Code; and finally the pantomime of accepting PR applications for four years, subjecting them to ever more onerous requirements, including piles of notarized documents, a real language test, DNA tests for their Thai children etc, and just leaving them in limbo without any indication of when or if they might ever be approved. In addition, I haven't heard of any nationality applications have been approved since the Sarayudh government cleared the backlog in 2007. I am wondering if there is a connection between the new requirement for citizenship and the PR freeze. Both come from the top levels of the Interior Ministry which may well be happiest with a situation where both the PR and naturalization processes are effectively shut down but they can continue to pretend they still exist and smilingly hand out and receive back piles of meaningless bumpf from hopeful foreigners. An ideal solution for national security and public morality perhaps in their eyes.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Arkady

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted. This thread is a discussion about obtaining citizenship and the requirements to do so. Please do not clutter it up with off topic discussions regarding why anyone would want it, voting etc. Please feel free to PM someone or start another thread but lets keep this one on topic, cheers.

[Maestro]

Maestro, it is a new ministerial regulation from the Interior Ministry dated 14 October 2009, a two page document updating the guidelines on applications for naturalization and the list of documents required...

Thank you for this information. So it’s for real, from the Ministry.

Have you got a digital camera? With your scanner on the blink, photos of the pages of the Ministerial Regulation could serve as an interim measure.

--

Maestro

[TheChiefJustice]

This new development is very disturbing, indeed. I applied for Thai citizenship two years ago and am still waiting. I wonder whether this new requirement will apply to those who have already applied and who are still waiting, like me. Will they now require me to renounce my Australian citizenship. If so, this whole process has been a complete and utter waste of time!

[jamesthailand]

I also applied for Thai citizenship about two years ago and am still waiting. I just had my secretary ring up Special Branch to find out what this new requirement is all about. The answer she got was that it's nothing to worry about and it is not intended to change the status quo: you can hold Thai citizenship concurrently with the citizenship of any other country that allows dual citizenship. I didn't get a very clear answer about what the exact point of the new requirement is, but it seems to be aimed at citizens of countries that do not permit dual citizenship: if you get Thai citizenship, then Special Branch will so inform the embassy of the country of your existing citizenship.

[clockworkorange]

I haven't heard of any nationality applications have been approved since the Sarayudh government cleared the backlog in 2007. I am wondering if there is a connection between the new requirement for citizenship and the PR freeze. Both come from the top levels of the Interior Ministry which may well be happiest with a situation where both the PR and naturalization processes are effectively shut down but they can continue to pretend they still exist and smilingly hand out and receive back piles of meaningless bumpf from hopeful foreigners. An ideal solution for national security and public morality perhaps in their eyes.

My citizenship was one of the backlogged ones that was cleared by the post-coup Surayudh government in 2007. However, it had already been approved by the pre-coup Interior Minister (Kongsak Wanthana) and also sanctioned by HM the King before the coup took place. In considering what action the Surayudh government actually took, we have to bear in mind the major steps in the citizenship approval process. which are:

1) Approval by the Interior Minister <---- you get a letter telling you this

2) Sanctioning by HM the King <---- you are invited to take the oath once this step is complete

3) Enacting into law by the Interior Minister <---- This was the part only that Surayudh's post coup government did in clearing the backlog

Given the unheard of four-year wait for PR applications, and the fact that no citizenship applications that I am aware of have even passed the first step since 2007, I concur with you that it very much looks like the Interior Ministry does want to stall the PR and citizenship processes.

[Mario2008]

So basically it is only a notification that you are applying for the citizenship of Thailand.

Would be nice if someone can post a scan of, or link to, the new regulation.

[clockworkorange]

So basically it is only a notification that you are applying for the citizenship of Thailand.

Would be nice if someone can post a scan of, or link to, the new regulation.

I was in Siam Square today, and went to the Special Branch to see for myself the new set of (scanned and attached) requirements.

There is indeed an item 17 calling for a document from the embassy of original nationality, but when I asked the official what this actually meant, I got the following response:

1) The new checklist requirement came from the Interior Ministry, but does not reference any new regulations that they are aware of. As such, the Special Branch are still accepting applications without this embassy document, until such time as there is a change in the law itself that clarifies this matter. In a similar vein, there is a move to increase the application fee by the Interior Ministry to 10,000 (from 5,000) Baht, but since this has not appeared in the regulations yet the Special Branch are still charging the old rate (and it still appears on the checklist!)

2) Thai law does not forbid dual nationality, so the Special Branch have little idea why this new item appeared in the checklist. The Special Branch are of the opinion that the new item 17 may be there just to cover off the possibility of complaints from foreign countries in cases where Thailand grants nationality to a citizen of a country that does not permit it

3) As usual, the workings of the Interior Ministry are inscrutable to the Special Branch - as they always have been. While the Special Branch can accept applications without this embassy document, they can not guarantee that the Interior Ministry will process such applications. They see no reasion why not, because the regulations as they see them are unchanged, but they have no way of knowing for sure

4) The people at the Special Branch are of the opinion that applications that have already been submitted will not be affected.

All in all, a bit of a mess, and the Special Branch does not seen to know how applications that lack this embassy document will be viewed by the Interior Ministry.

Edited December 30, 2009 by clockworkorange

[Mario2008]

Thanks for posting and adding the scans.