Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[bdw]

I thought I was going to try for a citizenship application and it just never came to fruition, even after 15 years working in the LOS.

[Chippen Dong]

hmm you still get banned from thai visa with one of these. see OP.

i still got one question though, have yet to see any farang, ever called anything other than farang, does this still happen when you have thai citizenship? (actually not totally true, long ago met a thai wife who called her husband by his farang name, but none since then. perhaps unbeknown to me he had thai citizenship )

anyhow congrats to those who have succeeded, i can feel your big sense of achievement beaming off the page. for me it is not something i will be able to achieve in this life.

oh yeah one other thing, do you have to do military service?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chippen Dong

[Thanet]

hmm you still get banned from thai visa with one of these. see OP.

i still got one question though, have yet to see any farang, ever called anything other than farang, does this still happen when you have thai citizenship? (actually not totally true, long ago met a thai wife who called her husband by his farang name, but none since then. perhaps unbeknown to me he had thai citizenship )

anyhow congrats to those who have succeeded, i can feel your big sense of achievement beaming off the page. for me it is not something i will be able to achieve in this life.

oh yeah one other thing, do you have to do military service?

No need to do military service for naturalized Thais.

And, yes,we still get called farangs - naturalisation doesn't change our appearance

[Arkady]

I was going to go down to the Minorities and Nationality Group at the MOI late last month just to check on the status of my application and let them know I am still here and interested. The demonstrations put paid to that. I have postponed my visit to January 2014. Hopefully, things will be a little quieter then.

I also assume with the current unrest that there will be no stitting of the review committee this month and possibly until we have a new government. In its caretaker capacity the Minister of the Interior will not be signing any approvals.

Even the staff couldn't get into the MOI today.

[maccaroni man]

I started my wife's process for US legal status I wonder how long it will take her compared to me in LOS which after 12 yrs never happened

[samran]

I started my wife's process for US legal status I wonder how long it will take her compared to me in LOS which after 12 yrs never happened

what year did you apply for Thai citizenship?

[Arkady]

I started my wife's process for US legal status I wonder how long it will take her compared to me in LOS which after 12 yrs never happened

what year did you apply for Thai citizenship?

I rather suspect that maccaroni man has never applied for Thai citizenship. If he had applied for it 12 years ago, he would have needed PR first but actually he said "legal status" and it is unclear whether what type of legal status he wanted. Whether it was PR or citizenship, he would have got it some time ago, if he had applied in 2001 and was fully qualified. But "legal status" sounds more like an illegal immigrant seeking special permission to remain on humanitarian grounds.

[simon43]

I forgot to ask as an addendum to my previous post.

If I am no longer married to a Thai lady, then I understand that I cannot apply for citizenship on the basis of being married.

But what about the fact that I have a Thai son, born while I was still married? Does that provide grounds to apply for citizenship?

I think that my age, qualifications, language knowledge, charitable/volunteer work etc will get me enough points, still need to pay a bit more tax though

Simon

[Arkady]

I forgot to ask as an addendum to my previous post.

If I am no longer married to a Thai lady, then I understand that I cannot apply for citizenship on the basis of being married.

But what about the fact that I have a Thai son, born while I was still married? Does that provide grounds to apply for citizenship?

I think that my age, qualifications, language knowledge, charitable/volunteer work etc will get me enough points, still need to pay a bit more tax though

Simon

The exemption from having PR first under Section 11 of the Act only applies to the husband of a person of Thai nationality, not the father. You need to be currently married and the National Intelligence Agency will check the status of your marriage. Your wife needs to attend all interviews with you, including the interview at the MOI which may take place several years after your application. If your marriage is terminated or your wife passes away during the application process, you no longer qualify for the exemption.

The only concession to parents of Thai children who are not currently married to a Thai is that they need a salary of B40k, rather than 80k, but they must have PR.

[Arkady]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

[aidenai]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

Thank you very much for this update, Arkady.

Do you happen to have any links to the relevant documents on Ratchakitcha?

\

[aidenai]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

Thank you very much for this update, Arkady.

Do you happen to have any links to the relevant documents on Ratchakitcha?

\

I think I found the relevant documents. 21 October and 27 November lists in regards to males. Correct?

Thanks.

[Arkady]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

Thank you very much for this update, Arkady.

Do you happen to have any links to the relevant documents on Ratchakitcha?

\

I think I found the relevant documents. 21 October and 27 November lists in regards to males. Correct?

Thanks.

Yes, and there were a couple more earlier in the year. I don't know why the wives are announced one by one. Must be some ancient regulation.

[nontabury]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

How many of these naturalised Thais were farang, as opposed to simple foreigners?.

I ask this question because up to a few years ago according to the governments own figures, on average only 5 Farangs were successful in obtaining Thai citizenship per year.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Arkady]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

How many of these naturalised Thais were farang, as opposed to simple foreigners?.

I ask this question because up to a few years ago according to the governments own figures, on average only 5 Farangs were successful in obtaining Thai citizenship per year.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I am not sure if the non-farangs were simple or not. LOL. They were at least smart enough to figure out how to get Thai citizenship.

Nevertheless the numbers are not far out. On average less than 5% are farangs which reflects the small number of farangs who bother to apply. However, I doubt that the government has ever published the figures you refer to. The only details published by the government on naturalisations are the announcements that appear in the Royal Gazette. For some curious reason they give the nationality of women who apply to adopt the Thai nationality of their husbands under Section 9 but do not give the nationality of men and women who are naturalised under Section 10. For them, one can only surmise who might be a farang from their names. Even for the women we cannot always not know for sure if they are farangs, e.g. is Carol Lee of US citizenship a farang or of Chinese origin?

In my experience of applying for citizenship (still in process) they take everyone as they come on their merits without caring about racial origin. Most of the applicants seem to be Asians who have established SME businesses here and thus have strong motivation to go through all the hassles to get PR and then citizenship. Most also seem to have wives who are not Thai which gives even more motivation as they cannot put assets in a Thai wife's name and their children don't have Thai citizenship, even though Thailand is their home where they might have been born. Minor children can apply a parent on the same ticket and a foreign wife can apply later under Section 9. The balance may change as more and more farang males with Thai wives apply without PR following the 2008 amendments.

On the other hand there is a peculiar, sneering attitude amongst many farangs living in Thailand that Thai citizenship is something Mickey Mouse or otherwise undesirable, even though they readily understand why emigrants to the UK, the US, Australia etc want to be citizens of their adopted countries with all the benefits that entails. I encounter a lot of farangs who say things like, "Why on earth would you want that?". I even avoid mentioning it now. It has to be said that many of these are people who lack the qualifications or can't speak Thai well enough to do interviews- but by no means all. Oh well, each to his own.

[nontabury]

Scorecard update.

176 people were approved for Thai citizenship in 2013 (excluding batch approvals of displaced Thais etc). Of the 176, 153 were naturalisations of mainly males, while 23 were wives of Thai citizens adopting their husbands' nationality. That makes it a good year for males and a poor year for wives of Thai citizens but sometimes it is the other way round and over time the wives have had the edge.

The average per year since 2005 from when I started collecting the data is: 160 (67 naturalisations and 93 wives). The averages are slightly deflated by 2009 when only 4 wives were approved and no naturalisations.

How many of these naturalised Thais were farang, as opposed to simple foreigners?.

I ask this question because up to a few years ago according to the governments own figures, on average only 5 Farangs were successful in obtaining Thai citizenship per year.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

I am not sure if the non-farangs were simple or not. LOL. They were at least smart enough to figure out how to get Thai citizenship.

Nevertheless the numbers are not far out. On average less than 5% are farangs which reflects the small number of farangs who bother to apply. However, I doubt that the government has ever published the figures you refer to. The only details published by the government on naturalisations are the announcements that appear in the Royal Gazette. For some curious reason they give the nationality of women who apply to adopt the Thai nationality of their husbands under Section 9 but do not give the nationality of men and women who are naturalised under Section 10. For them, one can only surmise who might be a farang from their names. Even for the women we cannot always not know for sure if they are farangs, e.g. is Carol Lee of US citizenship a farang or of Chinese origin?

In my experience of applying for citizenship (still in process) they take everyone as they come on their merits without caring about racial origin. Most of the applicants seem to be Asians who have established SME businesses here and thus have strong motivation to go through all the hassles to get PR and then citizenship. Most also seem to have wives who are not Thai which gives even more motivation as they cannot put assets in a Thai wife's name and their children don't have Thai citizenship, even though Thailand is their home where they might have been born. Minor children can apply a parent on the same ticket and a foreign wife can apply later under Section 9. The balance may change as more and more farang males with Thai wives apply without PR following the 2008 amendments.

On the other hand there is a peculiar, sneering attitude amongst many farangs living in Thailand that Thai citizenship is something Mickey Mouse or otherwise undesirable, even though they readily understand why emigrants to the UK, the US, Australia etc want to be citizens of their adopted countries with all the benefits that entails. I encounter a lot of farangs who say things like, "Why on earth would you want that?". I even avoid mentioning it now. It has to be said that many of these are people who lack the qualifications or can't speak Thai well enough to do interviews- but by no means all. Oh well, each to his own.

Sorry! I cannot agree 100% with your last paragraph, I think many Farangs think it is too long winded to go through all the procedures, and of course it can take many years before you receive full citizenship,that is of course if you are successful. A few years ago, a number of successful applicators had to wait some years before actually receiving their citizenship, even though they had filled all the correct squares, due to the fact that

One of the officials who did not agree with Farangs obtaining Thai citizenship, simple left the forms

In his in-tray, instead of signing of, the application.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[GarryP]

With the government now acting in a caretaker capacity, with no end in sight, does the caretaker interior minister still have authority to sign approvals. Obviously, if he retains such authority, whether or not he approves any applications is another issue.

The protests and the state of uncertainty does not bode well for clearing any backlog of applications. I assume there will be no further interviews at the MOI until things start getting back to normal. Possibly the only silver lining (fingers crossed here) is that they will have to schedule a geater number of interviews during their monthly or bi-monthly sittings, which will mean the interviews will become quite perfunctory for a while due to the numbers involved.

I will cycle on over there on Saturday and check whether the razor wire has been removed yet.

[Arkady]

Sorry! I cannot agree 100% with your last paragraph, I think many Farangs think it is too long winded to go through all the procedures, and of course it can take many years before you receive full citizenship,that is of course if you are successful. A few years ago, a number of successful applicators had to wait some years before actually receiving their citizenship, even though they had filled all the correct squares, due to the fact that

One of the officials who did not agree with Farangs obtaining Thai citizenship, simple left the forms

In his in-tray, instead of signing of, the application.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Of course, farangs or anyone else are entitled to eschew the process because they feel it is too lengthy, which it is by most yardsticks. However, others, including some farangs, feel that, since they plan to stay in Thailand for the rest of their lives, going through the process, paying the modest B5,000 fee and waiting are worth it. What is absolutely sure is that, if you never apply, you will never get it.

I don't give any credence to the story of discrimination against farangs. I think it is just hearsay like your earlier suggestion that the government publishes lists of successful applicants showing their racial origins. My knowledge of the process is based on applying myself, detailed discussions with Interior Ministry and Special Branch working in the departments responsible for nationality, discussions with numerous other people who have gone through or are going through the process and reading all relevant laws, regulations and announcements I can find in Thai. Let's try to keep this thread a source of reliable information for people interested in applying for citizenship. There are plenty of other sources of speculation and hearsay information.

[samran]

Sorry! I cannot agree 100% with your last paragraph, I think many Farangs think it is too long winded to go through all the procedures, and of course it can take many years before you receive full citizenship,that is of course if you are successful. A few years ago, a number of successful applicators had to wait some years before actually receiving their citizenship, even though they had filled all the correct squares, due to the fact that

One of the officials who did not agree with Farangs obtaining Thai citizenship, simple left the forms

In his in-tray, instead of signing of, the application.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Of course, farangs or anyone else are entitled to eschew the process because they feel it is too lengthy, which it is by most yardsticks. However, others, including some farangs, feel that, since they plan to stay in Thailand for the rest of their lives, going through the process, paying the modest B5,000 fee and waiting are worth it. What is absolutely sure is that, if you never apply, you will never get it.

I don't give any credence to the story of discrimination against farangs. I think it is just hearsay like your earlier suggestion that the government publishes lists of successful applicants showing their racial origins. My knowledge of the process is based on applying myself, detailed discussions with Interior Ministry and Special Branch working in the departments responsible for nationality, discussions with numerous other people who have gone through or are going through the process and reading all relevant laws, regulations and announcements I can find in Thai. Let's try to keep this thread a source of reliable information for people interested in applying for citizenship. There are plenty of other sources of speculation and hearsay information.

Indeed, haven't sensed any problems against farangs as a group. If you qualify, you qualify, and are quite happy to help and assist wherever they can.

[Arkady]

With the government now acting in a caretaker capacity, with no end in sight, does the caretaker interior minister still have authority to sign approvals. Obviously, if he retains such authority, whether or not he approves any applications is another issue.

The protests and the state of uncertainty does not bode well for clearing any backlog of applications. I assume there will be no further interviews at the MOI until things start getting back to normal. Possibly the only silver lining (fingers crossed here) is that they will have to schedule a geater number of interviews during their monthly or bi-monthly sittings, which will mean the interviews will become quite perfunctory for a while due to the numbers involved.

I will cycle on over there on Saturday and check whether the razor wire has been removed yet.

The caretaker minister does have authority to sign approvals. This is clearly not in the list of things that a caretaker cabinet may not do under Section 181 of the constitution. However, ministers are reluctant to sign anything in a caretaker capacity in case it gets challenged by someone later. So, it is quite unlikely, in my view, that he would bother to approve any applications in this period. He seems to have other priorities at the moment anyway. An exception might be applications coming back from the palace already approved by the minister and countersigned by the King. The minister has to sign again to have them published in Royal Gazette. I don't think anyone would argue that signing those was unlawful or that delaying them would be appropriate.

The protestors have rallied outside the DOPA building in Asadang which is where the Nationality Section is located. I can't remember what the exact rationale was but I imagine it could be used as an excuse not to schedule the meetings for months. After the floods finished in Novemember 2011 the meetings didn't resume until March 2012 and the building wasn't even flooded. I don't see see them relocating the meetings to a shopping mall like Immigration has had to do.

[JoePai]

There is also the not insignificant problem when they ask you to renounce your present citizenship - why swap a Western passport for a Thai one ?

[Mario2008]

There is also the not insignificant problem when they ask you to renounce your present citizenship - why swap a Western passport for a Thai one ?

You are not asked to renounce your nationality of birth. Some nationalities even can't renounce their citizenship.

What is asked is to get a letter stating your intention about this.

[JoePai]

What is asked is to get a letter stating your intention about this.

Sorry (am slow today) but please explain this as when I last looked (some time ago) one had to write to ones Embassy renouncing it ?

[GarryP]

Using a blank British Embassy Satutory Declaration form, I stated to the effect that that I "intended" to renounce my British citizenship if successfully granted Thai citizenship. This document was then signed by the Vice Consul and stamped by the Consular Section. Nothing in the statement, however, said that I would really do so. Even the officer handling the form at the Embassy had a chuckle. It was simply an expression of intention and you know how good intentions can go up in smoke.

[samran]

Using a blank British Embassy Satutory Declaration form, I stated to the effect that that I "intended" to renounce my British citizenship if successfully granted Thai citizenship. This document was then signed by the Vice Consul and stamped by the Consular Section. Nothing in the statement, however, said that I would really do so. Even the officer handling the form at the Embassy had a chuckle. It was simply an expression of intention and you know how good intentions can go up in smoke.

A bit like: I plan to lose 10kg and run 5km each morning in 2014.

[Bloodnut]

There is also the not insignificant problem when they ask you to renounce your present citizenship - why swap a Western passport for a Thai one ?

You are not asked to renounce your nationality of birth. Some nationalities even can't renounce their citizenship.

What is asked is to get a letter stating your intention about this.

My 20 year old son and I were granted the honour of Thai Citizenship on Boxing Day 2013. We started the long trudge many years ago securing our PR's early in 1999. We just followed the process laid out perfectly in this amazing OP thread. I was never asked to produce a letter stating my intention to renounce my birth citizenship - which is fortunate. My wife and 4 children are farang - 3 of us are now white Thais because our youngest daughter was born after both parents had PR. It's also possible from other provinces - our application was processed in Phuket - although if I had the option again I'd move my Tabien Barn to Bangkok where they have more experience. Sawasdee Krup from a Hua Daeng... 555

[GarryP]

There is also the not insignificant problem when they ask you to renounce your present citizenship - why swap a Western passport for a Thai one ?

You are not asked to renounce your nationality of birth. Some nationalities even can't renounce their citizenship.

What is asked is to get a letter stating your intention about this.

My 20 year old son and I were granted the honour of Thai Citizenship on Boxing Day 2013. We started the long trudge many years ago securing our PR's early in 1999. We just followed the process laid out perfectly in this amazing OP thread. I was never asked to produce a letter stating my intention to renounce my birth citizenship - which is fortunate. My wife and 4 children are farang - 3 of us are now white Thais because our youngest daughter was born after both parents had PR. It's also possible from other provinces - our application was processed in Phuket - although if I had the option again I'd move my Tabien Barn to Bangkok where they have more experience. Sawasdee Krup from a Hua Daeng... 555

Congratulations.

[samran]

Congrats bloodnut

[Arkady]

There is also the not insignificant problem when they ask you to renounce your present citizenship - why swap a Western passport for a Thai one ?

You are not asked to renounce your nationality of birth. Some nationalities even can't renounce their citizenship.

What is asked is to get a letter stating your intention about this.

My 20 year old son and I were granted the honour of Thai Citizenship on Boxing Day 2013. We started the long trudge many years ago securing our PR's early in 1999. We just followed the process laid out perfectly in this amazing OP thread. I was never asked to produce a letter stating my intention to renounce my birth citizenship - which is fortunate. My wife and 4 children are farang - 3 of us are now white Thais because our youngest daughter was born after both parents had PR. It's also possible from other provinces - our application was processed in Phuket - although if I had the option again I'd move my Tabien Barn to Bangkok where they have more experience. Sawasdee Krup from a Hua Daeng... 555

That was a nice Boxing Day present Bloodnut. Congratulations. Well deserved after putting in the effort and the waiting time.

Getting Thai citizenship as a result of having two parents is rare these days. In fact I don't think I have come across other cases. Will you now start the process for your wife to adopt your Thai nationality under Section 9?

[GarryP]

I cycled down to the Ministry of the Interior today just to see how things are. It is still surrounded by razor wire so there will be no movement with pending applications until things return to normal, whenever that may be. Things are slow enough as it is but this will really slow things down even further.