Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[samran]

As someone who has just gotten PR, I am interested in the next step as soon as possible.

A quick question about timings. I have seen conflicting reports about when I am allowed to apply for citizenship. I have lived here for 14 years, paid lots of tax for more than 10 consecutive years, but have only just gotten PR. Do I have to wait 5 years more before applying? or can I try straight away?

I am male, 39, with a son.

In the past you could appeal the normal waiting period to the Minister of Interior if you felt there was a case why should be considered early. Is that still an option? Also, is it worth having "influential" people be the two sponsors/witnesses for your application?

Thanks for any insight on this...

Five years as a PR, with three years of tax returns prior to applications. See my conversation with the Special Branch last year here.

Influential is always good I think, except when they are the political enemy of the police commissioner and the interior minster...you have to be careful here

My suggestion is to go with a 'respected' person, ie someone who may not be influential but is seen as a solid Thai citizen...eg lawyer, teacher. High up the chain, but not too high.

I'm thinking of applying for my wife, and have considered getting someone quite influential to sponsor the application. As the lady told me though, that influential person must be interviewed as part of the process, and many influential people, while happy to lend their names to things, don't always have the time to be at the beck and call of the police and the ministry of interior.

[Mid]

September 2004Then, I was shown into a room with around 40 people

watching me. I was given a microphone and asked to sing the Thai

National anthem and Phra Baramee (the one they play in the cinema).

Yes, really.

I think they were having fun with you. If they wanted to find out how well you speak Thai, all they had to do was do a one on one interview.

The fact that they gave you a microphone and had you sing in front of 40 people was a typical good humored Thai way. I remember going through that when i first arrived in Thailand many years ago. You'll always smile when you look back at that.

singing the National Anthem IS a requirement .

[borracho]

While I think it's admirable to have successfully navigated the citizenship process I find it curious why the OP is being coy about answering certain questions:

1.How long have you lived here?

2.How long did you hold a PR?

And a couple of questions that haven't been asked yet:

1. What nationality are you?

2. What above the minimum requirements seemed expedite application?

3. During the waiting process did you continue to maintain a WP?

Enquiring mind would like to know?

Or are we just whistling "Dixie"?

[TaoNow]

OP comes from a country which allows dual citizenship with Thailand.

But I imagine that most TV members come from countries that do not allow this.

So the question for OP is this: Would you have relinquished your original citizenship to get the Thai?

Otherwise, in his position, what OP did is just common sense.

[CNXagent]

I was told :

If number start with #3 means Thai by birth

If number start with #5 means for those born in the hilltribes and registered in Thai hospital for birth cert.

If number start with #8 means for those transfer of citizenship. So far, I only seen transfer of citizenship for those long term hilltribe immigrants.

Can you please tell us what is your the first number on your Thai ID card?

I've got a 5 at the beginning of my Thai ID number. And yes, I'm an overseas born Thai national.

My Daughter, born here while not having an ID card yet (she is only a baby), the first number of her ID is a '1'. This may or may not change when she grows up ang gets her ID card.

Hi Txs Samran for the reply.

It is interesting to know all the different 'classification' of the Thai ID numbers.

I am lucky to see one id card starting with the digit #1 today !

With yours. it makes 2 person I know having #1 as the first digit.

[jdinasia]

great thread!

8000+++ views ... guess the nay-sayers in the first page or two might have been dead wrong!

[borracho]

I'm still curious as to the nationality of the OP? How long he lived here? How long he had a PR?

And if he maintained his WP throughout the waiting process?

These seem like fair questions to ask and would hardly detract from the accomplishment of the OP.

[borracho]

OP comes from a country which allows dual citizenship with Thailand.

But I imagine that most TV members come from countries that do not allow this.

So the question for OP is this: Would you have relinquished your original citizenship to get the Thai?

Otherwise, in his position, what OP did is just common sense.

The UK, Australia, USA, Germany, Switzerland...(the list goes on) all allow dual citizenship.

I quite sure most TV members come from countries which do allow dual citizenship.

In fact it seems most countries allow for dual citizenship. link

Norway seems to be one of the exceptions.

Are most members here from Norway?

Edited May 27, 2007 by borracho

[dbrenn]

OP comes from a country which allows dual citizenship with Thailand.

But I imagine that most TV members come from countries that do not allow this.

So the question for OP is this: Would you have relinquished your original citizenship to get the Thai?

Otherwise, in his position, what OP did is just common sense.

The UK, Australia, USA, Germany, Switzerland...(the list goes on) all allow dual citizenship.

I quite sure most TV members come from countries which do allow dual citizenship.

In fact it seems most countries allow for dual citizenship. link

Norway seems to be one of the exceptions.

Are most members here from Norway?

Hi there,

Interesting document on citizenship rules - thanks for the link. To my knowledge, most western countries allow plural citizenship, Australia recently started allowing it. I have american friends that tell me that they are not able to apply for Thai citizenship while keeping their US citizenship, seemingly in contradiction to the document that you provided the link for. Are they mistaken, or could this be because acquisition of Thai citizenship entails an oath of allegiance to Thailand (see page 10 of your document)?

In answer to your earlier question, I had held PR for longer than the minimum 5 years. I maintained a WP throughout my application process, simply because I was working here anyway, but my WP was only checked twice - during my initial application and at the Interior Ministry when I went to sing the national anthem. I did not have to show any documentation after this Interior Ministry visit until the final step at the Ampher to get my ID card. Although my home Ampher asked for a copy of my WP, this was not actually a requirement as the second (more competent) Ampher that finally processed my ID card did not ask for copies of my WP. Theoretically at least, I could therefore have stopped working in September 2004 after the Interior Ministry check. But, things can and do change anytime....

I'm afraid that there is no easy answer to your question on what in practice would be minimum acceptance criteria. The process does seem rather discretionary, and depends largely how much they like you as a package.

Cheers

[lopburi3]

I have american friends that tell me that they are not able to apply for Thai citizenship while keeping their US citizenship

They are wrong (at least the last time I checked several years ago). US considers an oath to be a non voluntary requirement rather than a free expression of your desire and will not remove citizenship unless you specifically request it in a specified manner.

[sbk]

I have american friends that tell me that they are not able to apply for Thai citizenship while keeping their US citizenship

They are wrong (at least the last time I checked several years ago). US considers an oath to be a non voluntary requirement rather than a free expression of your desire and will not remove citizenship unless you specifically request it in a specified manner.

It is still not true that Americans cannot have dual. I checked with the US embassy last year and was told the same thing as lopburi. The only way to remove your citizenship is to go to the embassy and specifically renounce it. And even then, if you wanted it back later, it would be possible to change your mind.

[LivinLOS]

For me, I would gladly pay 1 million baht if I could skip all the hassles and time involved and just "buy" my citizenship. Three years is a long time; of course a lot of this time you were just waiting and not actively doing anything.

I was offered that a Thai passport could be obtained and put onto the system for 650k baht about 18 months ago.. The offer was also stated that I would have to work on my Thai a lot tho as not having better Thai skills would raise alarms as to how the passport was gained.

I have heard that another farang I know 'bought' his PR by simply bringing in 40mil baht for deposit for x amount of time.. Some special invester clause.. He got it immediately and doesnt speak one word of Thai..

[borracho]

The concept of acquiring Thai citizenship is an interesting one.

It's probably fun to learn to sing the national anthem.

Is there a quota system involved like for the PR?

How many foreigners are granted thai citizenship every year? Is there a list published?

[Bobcat]

Unlike PR, there are no quotas set for citizenship. As of April 2007, out of the 400 or so applications currently waiting for approval (of which the OP was one), only a handful are from Westerners. The majority of applicants are from China, Taiwan, and India.

Anyone who tells you Thai citizenship can be bought is misinformed. Also, an investment into Thailand does not qualify one for Thai citizenship.

[LivinLOS]

Unlike PR, there are no quotas set for citizenship. As of April 2007, out of the 400 or so applications currently waiting for approval (of which the OP was one), only a handful are from Westerners. The majority of applicants are from China, Taiwan, and India.

Anyone who tells you Thai citizenship can be bought is misinformed. Also, an investment into Thailand does not qualify one for Thai citizenship.

ha ha ha.. Yeah sure, nothing in Thailand thats involved with beaurocracy ever gets greased through !! Tell that to the longer term guys wandering round with Thai passports.. Anyway that was the price I was offered.. For me I dont see 650k value in it..

The person who invested 40m got instant PR as I understand it.. Thats back about 7 years tho.

[John@KSR]

how long did you have a residency before this?

[Bobcat]

ha ha ha.. Yeah sure, nothing in Thailand thats involved with beaurocracy ever gets greased through !! Tell that to the longer term guys wandering round with Thai passports.. Anyway that was the price I was offered.. For me I dont see 650k value in it..

I am not able to speak about things of this nature that may or may not have happened in the past, but it certainly is not the case now.

how long did you have a residency before this?

I believe that the OP held PR for more than 5 years prior to his application for citizenship.

[grtaylor]

ha ha ha.. Yeah sure, nothing in Thailand thats involved with beaurocracy ever gets greased through !! Tell that to the longer term guys wandering round with Thai passports.. Anyway that was the price I was offered.. For me I dont see 650k value in it..

I am not able to speak about things of this nature that may or may not have happened in the past, but it certainly is not the case now.

how long did you have a residency before this?

I believe that the OP held PR for more than 5 years prior to his application for citizenship.

Yes, he already said this earlier in the thread.

G

[samran]

Someone already addressed the issue on being able to 'buy' a Thai PP before. Apparently, years ago it was possible, but not anymore.

My take on it all is if wheels could be greased, then you'd be more than hearing about it, you'd be seeing it with lots of farangs walking about with Thai ID cards. Fact of the matter is that we've got a PR thread here running on TV where you can get a feel for the process, and not once is the concept of under the table payments is made. Indeed, immigration provide warnings that PR applicants not to fall for requests of bribes, and to report them as such. This is applicable to visas in general as well, for all that people whinge and moan about the visa situation here in Thailand, you'd see very few people accuse the immigration people of outright bribery.

As for citizenship. I think it is fair to say that Thailand is has a pretty schitzophrenic approach. On one hand, you only have to be a child of a Thai national (born anywhere in the world) and you are eligible for citizenship. Farang children born to PR's in Thailand, are also on easy street. On the other hand, it can be pretty tight fisted in giving out citizenship making it hard to become eligible (not all people can qualify for PR), and the make it hard even to some of those who are eligible (hill tribes with proven Thai relatives as an example....).

That is not to say that the average farang, if he/she qualified, couldn't go ahead and apply for it. Indeed, I think as a farang, you'd stand a pretty good chance of getting it. As we've heard, apart from the meeting the requirments, a subjective assesment is made of the persons character and being a farang, already puts you way ahead of the pack. People may choose not to beleive it, but as a farang, you are at the top of the pile as foreigners here go. And as a farang who has shown a genuine commitment to Thailand, from what I've seen, Thai's would think butter wouldn't melt in your mouth.

[borracho]

^Wheels can always be greased. The trick is finding the squeaky ones that need greasing.

As just about anywhere, in Thailand you can get away with murder with the right amount of money.

More often than not you need a trusted discreet and well connected intermediary(read lawyer) to handle the details. It is kind of refreshing to learn that as a rule these things are handled legitimately.

I'll tell you if I found a way through the system to get a PR or citizenship in a streamlined manner I wouldn't advertise it here on a public forum. I'd be the proverbial clam.

[samran]

^Wheels can always be greased. The trick is finding the squeaky ones that need greasing.

As just about anywhere, in Thailand you can get away with murder with the right amount of money.

More often than not you need a trusted discreet and well connected intermediary(read lawyer) to handle the details. It is kind of refreshing to learn that as a rule these things are handled legitimately.

I'll tell you if I found a way through the system to get a PR or citizenship in a streamlined manner I wouldn't advertise it here on a public forum. I'd be the proverbial clam.

For me, the reason why I believe the citizenship area is free from corruption is the issue of national sovereignty. Citizenship, means access to this sovereignty - land, and unfettered rights to exploit what ever sits in the borders, so it isn't given away easily, and any price offered for it is likely to be too high.

Governments of all stripes, will wage catastrophic war for a few square km's of useless mudflats or inches of territory to protect its sovereign rights and claims, so it isn't a surprise for me at least is that the road to citizenship is a tough one at least in Thailand. On this point at least, access to land (whichever way) is a protected and non negotiable issue.

Other countries, take the view that a certain level of foreign participation in ones economy is a good thing, and that the wealth it generates will benefit all its citizens. Hence, the relatively liberal approach to immigration and foreign investment we see in the west. Unfortunately, the public debate in Thailand hasn't yet reached this point. It will, slowly I am sure as the real and perceived benefits become apparent

[chatette]

Did the Interior Ministry interview this morning, along with about 100 other people. Was very professionally organized with each couple being interviewed by one main interviewer supported by an IM person providing confirming background detail and 3 other govt. officials taking notes. Involved about 5 minutes of very basic questions about our circumstances. Not at all intimidating and very friendly. No singing, for me at least, altho some people behind me were still preparing when we were done. The main interviewer, who seemed director-general level, congratulated me at the end and the IM support person said the IM Minister would sign the order authorizing my citizenship and that will be that. So apart from years of waiting, that's that.

As a by the by, the woman waiting next to me ahead of our interview had her application in for 8 yrs and an acquaintance I knew who happened to be there today put his in last year. Taking out the gap between mine being lodged and me being out of the country, I waited 2 yrs. No explanation for the difference in wait time other than the suggestion that this govt. is trying to clear a backlog built up by the previous admin. So much for anti-foreign sentiment.

Edited May 29, 2007 by chatette

[dbrenn]

Did the Interior Ministry interview this morning, along with about 100 other people. Was very professionally organized with each couple being interviewed by one main interviewer supported by an IM person providing confirming background detail and 3 other govt. officials taking notes. Involved about 5 minutes of very basic questions about our circumstances. Not at all intimidating and very friendly. No singing, for me at least, altho some people behind me were still preparing when we were done. The main interviewer, who seemed director-general level, congratulated me at the end and the IM support person said the IM Minister would sign the order authorizing my citizenship and that will be that. So apart from years of waiting, that's that.

As a by the by, the woman waiting next to me ahead of our interview had her application in for 8 yrs and an acquaintance I knew who happened to be there today put his in last year. Taking out the gap between mine being lodged and me being out of the country, I waited 2 yrs. No explanation for the difference in wait time other than the suggestion that this govt. is trying to clear a backlog built up by the previous admin. So much for anti-foreign sentiment.

Congratulations, and sounds like you had a very good outcome. Didn't know that you ladies don't even have to sing the National Anthem and get interviewed alone by a room full of officials like us guys .... you did miss the best part though

[chatette]

They may have changed the procedure. Female and male acquaintances did their singing at the police station; same male acquaintance who was among interviewees this morning. Another female freind who had her interview earlier this year and now has the ID card had a room full of officials with microphones, like you, but didn't have to sing. Our experience was a bit like I'd imagine speed dating to be. Two kitchen-sized tables each with six chairs and we sat elbow to elbow for a brief chat before the 'yindee duay' was declared by the interviewer. Would have been very odd had anyone burst into song. It seemed to me they were more intent on confirming peoples' bonafides than judging their singing skills.

Edited May 29, 2007 by chatette

[jdinasia]

congrats chatette

[Bobcat]

Hi Chalette,

Congratulations! Would you mind elaborating on your interview today? Did they ask you detailed questions about Thai history or why you wanted to become Thai? If you could provide more detail that would be great.

[dbrenn]

^Wheels can always be greased. The trick is finding the squeaky ones that need greasing.

As just about anywhere, in Thailand you can get away with murder with the right amount of money.

More often than not you need a trusted discreet and well connected intermediary(read lawyer) to handle the details. It is kind of refreshing to learn that as a rule these things are handled legitimately.

I'll tell you if I found a way through the system to get a PR or citizenship in a streamlined manner I wouldn't advertise it here on a public forum. I'd be the proverbial clam.

For me, the reason why I believe the citizenship area is free from corruption is the issue of national sovereignty. Citizenship, means access to this sovereignty - land, and unfettered rights to exploit what ever sits in the borders, so it isn't given away easily, and any price offered for it is likely to be too high.

Governments of all stripes, will wage catastrophic war for a few square km's of useless mudflats or inches of territory to protect its sovereign rights and claims, so it isn't a surprise for me at least is that the road to citizenship is a tough one at least in Thailand. On this point at least, access to land (whichever way) is a protected and non negotiable issue.

Other countries, take the view that a certain level of foreign participation in ones economy is a good thing, and that the wealth it generates will benefit all its citizens. Hence, the relatively liberal approach to immigration and foreign investment we see in the west. Unfortunately, the public debate in Thailand hasn't yet reached this point. It will, slowly I am sure as the real and perceived benefits become apparent

Hi Samran,

You were right in your earlier comments about the passport office - plain sailing. Applied in less than half an hour at the passport office in Central Bang Na, just showing my ID card and my cerificate of citizenship. Picked up my new passport two days later. Only cost 1000 Baht.

If only the Ampers could learn a thing or two about modern administrative practices from these guys at the passsport office ....

Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention in my earlier post on my experience at the Ampher to the rest of the group. Although when I origtinally applied for Thai citizenship I had to reserve a Thai forename and surname, I was in the end allowed to keep my original name. Apparently, they have changed the rule obliging a name change on conversion to Thai citizenship. I can always change my name later, if I want, just like the Thais do.

Cheers

[samran]

excellent news. Now you are free to travel I guess!

Did you by any chance get an indication if a farang male with a Thai PP was a common occurance. They gave me the impression that they get a farang coming in on almost a weekly basis out at Chaeng Wattana...but I can't really verify if this was true.

[jdinasia]

excellent news. Now you are free to travel I guess!

Did you by any chance get an indication if a farang male with a Thai PP was a common occurance. They gave me the impression that they get a farang coming in on almost a weekly basis out at Chaeng Wattana...but I can't really verify if this was true.

that would only be 52 a year!!

[chatette]

Hi, Firstly a woman from the interior ministry read out our profile from a file then the main interviewer asked a few questions, specifically if I could keep my original citizenship, how long I've been in Thailand, what work I do, why I went abroad for 4 yrs, what nationality my child has, what type of visa I have. That was about it. Less than 5 mins.