All eyes on China’s Sinovac – Thailand’s vaccine choice for emergency

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Kiujunn said:

Where?

I am interested in the side effects of Sinovac, not the effectiveness, which is well documented. 

Ya think they run these tests and don't keep track of side effects? And if there were serious side effects, they would still be using this stuff. Your kind of objection smacks of desperation. That said...

CoronaVac’s Overall Efficacy in Brazil Measured at 50.4%

"Localized pain was the biggest side effect of Sinovac’s shot, as well as headaches and fatigue but there haven’t been any serious adverse effects recorded, according to Butantan. Seven volunteers in the placebo arm of the trial needed hospitalization, while none in the group who received the shot did."

CoronaVac’s Overall Efficacy in Brazil Measured at 50.4% - Bloomberg

 

Turkey says China's Sinovac COVID vaccine 91.25% effective in late trials

Turkish researchers said on Thursday no major side-effects were seen during their trial, apart from one person who had an allergic reaction. Common adverse effects caused by the vaccine were fever, mild pain and slight fatigue, they said.

Turkish researchers said on Thursday no major side-effects were seen during their trial, apart from one person who had an allergic reaction. Common adverse effects caused by the vaccine were fever, mild pain and slight fatigue, they said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-turkey-china-int/turkey-says-chinas-sinovac-covid-vaccine-91-25-effective-in-late-trials-idUSKBN28Y1R3

[Sheryl]

37 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

Thank you Sheryl, I know about the Chinese Phase III trials, unfortunately don't trust none of the countries involved. Can you please tell me which countries approved that specific vaccine.

 

1. The trials were conducted IN those countries, not BY those countries. Investigators had to select locations with high levels of infection, it is difficult to conduct trials if the current levels of infection are low.  Pfizer also conducted trials in Brazil and Turkey.

 

2. The fact that people who were vaccinated subsequently die does not mean the deaths were in any way due to the vaccine. The vaccines do nto confer immortality and people will still die of other causes.

 

I very, very  much doubt 7 deaths shortly after vaccination in one town, sounds like rumor.

 

Clinical  trials are designed to compare the occurrence of symptoms and deaths between vaccinated and unvaccinated group. These did not find deaths attributable to the vaccine and so far neither have investigations of reported deaths during regular vaccine administration, This does nto mean there will never be a single one, as hundreds of millions of people receive the vaccine it is possible, but will be extremely rare or it would already have been noted during clinical trails.

 

The only potentially fatal side effect detected so far with Sinovac is anaphylaxis and prompt medical care can manage this. Which is why people are observed for a period of time afterwards.

 

 

[Kiujunn]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You can start with this link

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1218065-thailand-reports-3382-new-covid-19-cases-17-more-deaths/?tab=comments#comment-16500935

All about effectiveness, nothing about side effects.

BTW all behind paywalls, not easy to read

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Phase III trials were conducted in Turkey, Chile, Indonesia and Brazil overseen investigators from multiple countries including Western ones.  The panel of experts which reviewed the data included scientists form North American and Europe.

 

Sinovac WHO.pdf 4.51 MB · 1 download

 

https://www.who.int/immunization/sage/members/en/

 

Yes, and the WHO concluded to NOT approve Sinovac. Not yet.

Because they were not convinced there were no side effects, as they write in this paper. 

They did approve Sinopharm, so probably no anti-China bias.

 

Now let us wait and see if these guys will come to a more definitive conclusion. 

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

everybody has different opinions on the vax matter, I stick with mine but that doesn't mean that yours is not not right. The majority of us here know that Brazil, Chile, Turkey, Indonesia, UAE and some other are all under heavy Chinese influence thus anything none of them reported about any Chinese product, regardless what type of product, for me would not be considered reliable, thus not worth my precious time to look at it but,  as I said, that's me

Speak for yourself. The majority of us know no such thing. It's clear by the impossible criteria you set, namely that no country whose results you would accept are actually running trials, that you have no interest in the scientific data at all.

[Kiujunn]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Ya think they run these tests and don't keep track of side effects? And if there were serious side effects, they would still be using this stuff. Your kind of objection smacks of desperation. That said...

CoronaVac’s Overall Efficacy in Brazil Measured at 50.4%

"Localized pain was the biggest side effect of Sinovac’s shot, as well as headaches and fatigue but there haven’t been any serious adverse effects recorded, according to Butantan. Seven volunteers in the placebo arm of the trial needed hospitalization, while none in the group who received the shot did."

CoronaVac’s Overall Efficacy in Brazil Measured at 50.4% - Bloomberg

 

Turkey says China's Sinovac COVID vaccine 91.25% effective in late trials

Turkish researchers said on Thursday no major side-effects were seen during their trial, apart from one person who had an allergic reaction. Common adverse effects caused by the vaccine were fever, mild pain and slight fatigue, they said.

Turkish researchers said on Thursday no major side-effects were seen during their trial, apart from one person who had an allergic reaction. Common adverse effects caused by the vaccine were fever, mild pain and slight fatigue, they said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-turkey-china-int/turkey-says-chinas-sinovac-covid-vaccine-91-25-effective-in-late-trials-idUSKBN28Y1R3

I knew what Butantan says, and they are certainly trustworthy.

The Turkish report,  I didn't know.  Thank you for linking it.

(BTW Turkey uses Pfizer right now,  but I don't think that's relevant here)

[Sheryl]

7 minutes ago, Kiujunn said:

Yes, and the WHO concluded to NOT approve Sinovac. Not yet.

Because they were not convinced there were no side effects, as they write in this paper. 

They did approve Sinopharm, so probably no anti-China bias.

 

Now let us wait and see if these guys will come to a more definitive conclusion. 

 

They did not conclude this. No announcement has been made by WHO to this effect.

 

The paper you refer to is not written by WHO, it is by the SAGE, an independent body.  And it states that there is sufficient evidence of safety in people under age 60. There is not enough data for people over 60. A big difference.

 

I suspect that WHO is either waiting for more data specific to people over 60 or else will end up approving Sinovac but only for those under 60. They would naturally prefer to be able to issue an approval without caveats,  so waiting makes sense if there is reason to think more or better data will soon be available.

 

 

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Speak for yourself. The majority of us know no such thing. It's clear by the impossible criteria you set, namely that no country whose results you would accept are actually running trials, that you have no interest in the scientific data at all.

 

Countries do not run trials. Trials are run by scientists. They conduct them in places which offer the right conditions. Very, very  often these are different countries than their own.

 

While the various COVID vaccines were under development everyone -- including Western vaccine developers like Pfizer - flocked to Brazil to conduct trials because Brazil at that time had much higher transmission than elsewhere.

[Kiujunn]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

states that there is sufficient evidence of safety in

I quote page 32: "moderate level of confidence"

I would not call this "sufficient evidence"

[placeholder]

Just now, Sheryl said:

 

Countries do not run trials. Trials are run by scientists. They conduct them in places which offer the right conditions. Very, very  often these are different countries than their own.

 

While the various COVID vaccines were under development everyone -- including Western vaccine developers like Pfizer - flocked to Brazil to conduct trials because Brazil at that time had much higher transmission than elsewhere.

Thanks for correcting my sloppy writing.

[Scouse123]

It isn't Thailand's vaccine of choice, it is ' Hobson's choice '  by a governmen t that was asleep at the wheel.

 

Never mind, as long as they got their own Astra Zenica vaccine for the fat controller and the other generals and the rest of the cronies........and the public?......Let them eat cake!

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Scouse123 said:

It isn't Thailand's vaccine of choice, it is ' Hobson's choice '  by a governmen t that was asleep at the wheel.

 

Never mind, as long as they got their own Astra Zenica vaccine for the fat controller and the other generals........and the public?......Let them eat cake!

Well, if they're going to go for those vaccines that performed the best in trials, and they clearly have the means to do so,  then most likely they would plump for either  Pfizer or Moderna.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Kiujunn said:

My problem with Sinovac is not the efficacy. It is the fact that we know nothing about side effects. Sinovac and governments (does any democracy use Sinovac?) are not transparent, and the fears of the public are downplayed and ridiculed.

One would not expect a lot of serious side effects, because it is a traditional vaccine,  effects and side effects should be limited.

But blindly trust an injection from a Chinese company known for corruption and vaccine scandals? That's what they ask me to do.

 

 

 

 

1. There is ample data on Sinovac side effects.

 

2. it is currently approved in 25 different countries with hundreds of millions of doses given to date. I do not have time to go through the political structure of all 25, but the list certainly includes some democracies.

• Albania
• Azerbaijan
• Brazil
• Cambodia
• Chile
• China
• Colombia
• Dominican Republic
• Ecuador
• Egypt
• El Salvador
• Hong Kong
• Indonesia
• Lao People's Democratic Republic
• Malaysia
• Mexico
• Pakistan
• Panama
• Philippines
• Thailand
• Tunisia
• Turkey
• Ukraine
• Uruguay
• Zimbabwe

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Mavideol said:

I have been nice and polite answering some of your non (in my humble opinion) posts, so let's keep it civilized and avoid the my relatives sarcasm for another occasion, I politely said that everybody has the right to their opinion, one opinion is not better then another, they are just different, hope you do understand what that means, you like China and I don't like China that's a different opinion, which

one is right/correct

What makes you believe that I like China? But your remark does betray that your opinion of the vaccine is rooted not in a rational distrust of the vaccine itself, but in your disapproval of the Chinese govt.

As for my sarcastic comment. You wasted everybody's time by asking for evidence from a western democracy. And when 3 examples from Western democracies were produced, you dismissed them as coming from countries' under China's influence. If you want to be treated kindly, then stop setting up situations that waste our time. 

[cdemundo]

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

2 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Do you think that half the vaccinated people in clinical trials had symptomatic disease?

Do you think that half the placebo group people in clinical trials had symptomatic disease?

did the Chinese vaccine had any reliable clinical trials, by western (non corrupted country) standards if so, do you care to share the data

Have no idea what you are on about.

These remarks refer to the interpretation of efficacy/efficiency which is often misunderstood.

And have no specific reference to the Chinese vaccine.

Since you respond in this way I gotta think you don't really understand that particular post.

 

[Marco100]

On 5/22/2021 at 12:47 PM, Andrew Dwyer said:

More importantly:

How does the Sinovac fare against the U.K. and Indian variants ??

and :

Is it accepted for travelling to different countries ?

I do not think it's accepted for traveling as not yet approved by WHO . ( but nothing clear about it ).

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, Marco100 said:

I do not think it's accepted for traveling as not yet approved by WHO . ( but nothing clear about it ).

 

Most countries do not yet have rules in place requiring proof of vaccination to travel to them.  Worldwide vaccination levels are not yet high enough to make that practical.

 

And there will indeed be trickly questions as to which vaccines to accept.

[Sheryl]

bickering posts have been removed.

[placeholder]

Just now, Sheryl said:

 

Most countries do not yet have rules in place requiring proof of vaccination to travel to them.  Worldwide vaccination levels are not yet high enough to make that practical.

 

And there will indeed be trickly questions as to which vaccines to accept.

Most likely if there is a list, Coronavac will be near the bottom since it seems less effective at stopping transmission of the virus.

[Deli]

On 5/22/2021 at 12:44 PM, Pottinger said:

Not exactly Gold Standard then.

 

scrap metal, maybe

[Sheryl]

A post and replies to it have been edited to remove unsubstantiated rumors of a serious nature.

 

Please note that spreading false rumors about COVID/COVID vaccines is a crime under Thai law. People have been arrested for ti, and it pouts the forum in jeopardy.

 

All sorts of rumors abound and that won't stop. More often than not, what you are told by a Thai partner or family members, who heard it from someone who heard it from someone...is either vastly exaggerated or altogether false. 

 

Do not repeat serious allegations unless you know them to be well founded.

 

Every single reported death that has occurred to someone following vaccination in Thailand has been thoroughly investigated and so far none have been due to the vaccine.

 

The vaccine is not expected to confer immortality. Vaccinated people will continue to die of other causes just as unvaccinated people do. The only difference is, they won't die of COVID whereas some unvaccinated people will.

[friendofthai]

1 hour ago, Caspersfriend said:

Covid: Why has Seychelles seen rising case numbers?

Seychelles is actually a very bad example. Because they use 2 vaccines, not a single one.

[Caspersfriend]

1 minute ago, friendofthai said:

Seychelles is actually a very bad example. Because they use 2 vaccines, not a single one.

 

Whereas in Thailand ......

[Kiujunn]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

There is ample data on Sinovac side effects.

Could you give some sources to read up on them?

 

47 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Please note that spreading false rumors about COVID/COVID vaccines is a crime under Thai law. People have been arrested for ti, and it pouts the forum in jeopardy.

'nuff said.

[peter2186]

I wish people would do some homework before making comments, Efficacy is not the same as Effectiveness. Sinovac is (as far as I am aware) good for all variant strains. As someone has already pointed out the 50%  is for people who have mild symptoms, as the infection becomes more serious the vaccine becomes more effective. There was some concern at the Pfizer vaccine, for treating all the variants but I doubt its a serious worry, though as it was developed in the US it must; by definition be the best!! 

 

Having been to China many times, I think it would be a wake up call as to how primitive our own countries are and to maintain the Sinophobia and comments critical of China because some politicians use the stance for political grandstanding is ridiculous.

BTW China donated half a million doses to Thailand on the understanding that their citizens would be vaccinated - how many doses have western countries donated and what concern has any western government shown for its people abroad ?

[friendofthai]

1 minute ago, Caspersfriend said:

Whereas in Thailand ......

As far as I know they use AZ only for 60+ now. There are a lot of political statements published about their plans to use AZ widely. Only political statements so far.

[friendofthai]

56 minutes ago, peter2186 said:

BTW China donated half a million doses to Thailand on the understanding that their citizens would be vaccinated - how many doses have western countries donated and what concern has any western government shown for its people abroad ?

We see that even western diplomats suffer from vaccine deficiency:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/state-department-coronavirus-vaccine-diplomats/2021/02/17/ec507e84-70d5-11eb-a4eb-44012a612cf9_story.html

[placnx]

7 hours ago, Kiujunn said:

 

You probably are not familar with the medical establishment in Brazil.

Butantã has a worldwide reputation. They are quite capable of deciding themselves. 

They had reasons to refuse Sputnik.

BTW They accepted Sinovac, I don't think the US was happy about it.

From an epidemiological standpoint, plus Brazil is a big country, major vaccination with Sinovac in the middle of a pandemic is problematical, as post-vaccination experience in Chile shows.

[placnx]

7 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Where do you get this from ? Nobody is registering and counting sinovac side effects ?????

Every country in the world records side effects for all vaccines. Its part of the approval process, a process to monitor and record effectiveness, side effects etc.

Go to a doctor/hospitial anywhere in the world with vaccine side effects, there will be a process in place to monitor/record the side effects

 

No, you are mixing up the approval process with the monitoring that goes on for years afterwards. In the Covid situation this is further complicated by the EUA system for advance approval.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, club said:

Not when you count the 1 million doses of Sinovac that have been donated to Thailand

That depends on how may doses Thailand has to pay for.

[mrfill]

On 5/22/2021 at 6:47 AM, Andrew Dwyer said:

More importantly:

How does the Sinovac fare against the U.K. and Indian variants ??

and :

Is it accepted for travelling to different countries ?

Does this help?

Prof Lawrence Young, Virologist and Professor of Molecular Oncology, University of Warwick, said:

“The reporting of the Sinovac trial of Coronavac (an inactivated whole virus vaccine) is very confusing. The revised 50.4% efficacy rate from the Brazilian clinical trial includes those who had ‘very mild’ cases of COVID-19 whereas original reports indicated an overall efficacy of 78% for mild to severe cases. The same vaccine has been trialled in Turkey (reported efficacy 91.25%) and Indonesia (reported efficacy 65.3%). The data from China only report a 94.9% seroconversion rate in a Phase I/II clinical trial with no report on efficacy. It is difficult to interpret all this information without seeing the full datasets. This highlights the problem of issuing data by press release rather than publication in a peer-reviewed journal. It also emphasises the different approaches to requirements for regulatory approval. It is interesting that both the Chinese and Russian vaccines are being distributed to countries such as Brazil and India in response to the perception that the ‘Western’ vaccines are being pre-purchased and hoarded by the ‘rich’ countries.” 

 

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-reported-results-of-the-sinovac-covid-19-vaccine-from-a-trial-by-the-butantan-institute-in-brazil/

 

I'm pretty sure that if a virologist and professor of molecular oncology says it is very confusing reporting, that carries a tad more weight than the rantings of a few untrained pseudo-expert commentators.