Cholesterol reducing drugs

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Rather disturbing results:

https://scitechdaily.com/statins-used-to-lower-cholesterol-linked-to-doubled-risk-of-developing-dementia/

 

The study was entirely confined to people who already had  cognitive impairment. It found this effect only in subjects whose baseline cholesterol was lower than the median and were on lipophilic  statins; the number in this group was only 72 persons.

 

It did not find this effect in people on lipophilic   statins whose baseline cholesterol levels were higher than average. Nor did it find it in people who were on non-lipophilic (i.e. hydrophilic statins).

 

 

The actual abstract is here:

https://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/62/supplement_1/102

 

To date research on statins and dementia have yielded confusing and conflicting results and this is one more example.

 

Certainly merits more study but hard to draw any conclusions from it, other than there does not seem to be any benefit to giving statins to people with dementia whose lipid profiles would not otherwise warrant statin use.

 

Since the study was confines to people who already had cognitive impairment, no conclusions can be drawn about the effect of statin use in normal people on subsequent development of dementia. Other, larger studies have generally suggested that it is associated with an overall risk reduction for all-cause dementia,  but those I have read did not distinguish by baseline cholesterol levels which is certainly an important consideration.

 

 

[lopburi3]

Am a bit concerned as wife now at stage of no current memory ability and I have started to forget more often than previously.  Don't believe will make much difference for us but your original reference says double the risk and even on a small number of people that seems to be more than chance (over an 8 year period).  I understand it is often "rob peter to pay paul" in medicine but for those than can make the change in statin type it might be a wise choice or at least a consideration.

Quote

lipophilic statin use was associated with more than double the risk of converting to dementia over eight years of follow-up compared with statin non-use

 

[cooked]

High cholesterol does not cause inflammation. The body produces cholesterol in order to protect against and repair problems caused by inflammation. 

More than half of patients delivered to hospitals with heart problems have cholesterol levels below those considered to be dangerous.

Meta analysis has shown that people with heart problems that take statins over long periods do not live longer than those that don't. 

Inflammation is caused by a bad diet, you can radically change your life by reducing carb intake, it certainly changed mine, despite my doctor telling me that a low carb diet was going to kill me (5 years ago). He wanted me to continue taking statins despite my good results. 

[tifino]

dumped all the Scripts for  the 'Statins, and adopted CoQ10 over the counter...   '

 

 

whereas 'Statins rip the guts out of both HDL and LDL (one likens Statins as the medicine cabinet equivalent of 'RoundUp in the garden' - where they are non selective in what they get rid of!! 

 

Losing HDLs alongside the happy to be ridden of LDL - means the body then does not have enough HDL left inside, to do their ongoing battles on bad cholesterol.'

 

CoQ10 rids the LDLs, ut Not at the expense of the reserves of HDL that 'are' needed

[partington]

47 minutes ago, tifino said:

dumped all the Scripts for  the 'Statins, and adopted CoQ10 over the counter...   '

 

 

whereas 'Statins rip the guts out of both HDL and LDL (one likens Statins as the medicine cabinet equivalent of 'RoundUp in the garden' - where they are non selective in what they get rid of!! 

 

 

Losing HDLs alongside the happy to be ridden of LDL - means the body then does not have enough HDL left inside, to do their ongoing battles on bad cholesterol.'

 

CoQ10 rids the LDLs, ut Not at the expense of the reserves of HDL that 'are' needed

Mostly wrong I'm afraid, being completely contrary to evidence gathered from numerous clinical trials.

 

The most incorrect statement you make is that statins reduce HDL.  In fact statins raise HDL, they don't decrease it!  Different statins do it to different degrees, but this has been seen with all.

 

See, for example, this paper -link-  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20513953/

Molecular mechanisms of HDL-cholesterol elevation by statins and its effects on HDL functions

Shizuya Yamashi ta 1, Kazumi Tsubakio-Yamamoto, Tohru Ohama, Yumiko Nakagawa-Toyama, Makoto Nishida

Journal of Atherosclerosis and Thrombosis  2010 May;17(5):436-51.

 

"Numerous large-scale clinical studies have revealed that the low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C)-lowering effect of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl-CoA (HMG-CoA) reductase inhibitors (statins) prevents coronary heart disease (CHD). Statins have not only LDL-C-lowering effects but also high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C)-elevating effects, which differ among statins." 

 

Statins  have been shown to reduce all cause mortality, in addition to mortality caused by coronary artery disease, which somewhat contradicts your unsubstantiated claim that statins don't allow the body to battle ' bad cholesterol'.

 

See, for example, this analysis of 18 separate randomised clinical trials of statins,  where results of all the trials are combined and statistically re-analysed as a whole -link- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23440795/

Statins for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease

Fiona Taylor 1, Mark D Huffman, Ana Filipa Macedo, Theresa H M Moore, Margaret Burke, George Davey Smith, Kirsten Ward, Shah Ebrahim   Cochrane Database Systematic Reviews  2013 Jan 31;2013(1):CD004816

 

"Main results: The latest search found four new trials and updated follow-up data on three trials included in the original review. Eighteen randomised control trials (19 trial arms; 56,934 participants) were included.[...]

 

All-cause mortality was reduced by statins (OR 0.86, 95% CI 0.79 to 0.94); as was combined fatal and non-fatal CVD [coronary vascular disease] RR 0.75 (95% CI 0.70 to 0.81), combined fatal and non-fatal CHD events RR 0.73 (95% CI 0.67 to 0.80) and combined fatal and non-fatal stroke (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.68 to 0.89). [...] . There was no evidence of any serious harm caused by statin prescription."

 Finally CoQ10 has not been shown to have any significant effect at all on LDL levels, though it does seem to raise HDL levels in trials, so this is the single correct statement in your post!

- see link- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30296936/

 

The effects of coenzyme Q10 supplementation on lipid profiles among patients with coronary artery disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials

Mohammad Vahid Jorat 1, Reza Tabrizi 2, Naghmeh Mirhosseini 3, Kamran B Lankarani 4, Maryam Akbari 2, Seyed Taghi Heydari 4, Reza Mottaghi 5, Zatollah Asemi 6  Lipids in Health and Disease 2018 Oct 9;17(1):230

 

"Results: A total of eight trials (267 participants in the intervention group and 259 in placebo group) were included in the current meta-analysis. The findings showed that taking CoQ10 by patients with CAD significantly decreased total-cholesterol (SMD -1.07; 95% CI, - 1.94, - 0.21, P = 0.01) and increased HDL-cholesterol levels (SMD 1.30; 95% CI, 0.20, 2.41, P = 0.02). We found no significant effects of CoQ10 supplementation on LDL-cholesterol [...]"

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

Am a bit concerned as wife now at stage of no current memory ability and I have started to forget more often than previously.  Don't believe will make much difference for us but your original reference says double the risk and even on a small number of people that seems to be more than chance (over an 8 year period).  I understand it is often "rob peter to pay paul" in medicine but for those than can make the change in statin type it might be a wise choice or at least a consideration.

 

 

If you both need statins, you might consider a switch to a hydrophilic statin e.g. rosuvastatin or pravastatin. There are now locally made brands of both.

 

The study you mention did not find this effect with hydrophilic statins (though the numbers on them were very small) and this is also noted in other related, larger studies (see below).  It is thought that the hydrophilic statins do not cross the blood brain barrier, or at least do nto do so to the same extent.

 

Good article on the subject here https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40035-018-0110-3

 

"Post marketing reports of statins have implicated a reversible cognitive impairing effect in some patients. In contrast, Phase III clinical trials used for drug approval did not report any significant increase in cognitive impairment in statin users versus placebo . However, the clinical trials were not originally designed to detect cognitive impairment. Re-evaluations of the statin clinical trial data have also found no effect on cognition but case-reports and studies have continued to suggest statins can cause cognitive impairment in some patients. Moreover, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) addressed the potential cognitive impairing effects in 2012 and recognized statins may cause reversible cognitive impairment in an announcement in 2012 ......Post-marketing surveillance can uncover side effects not identified in clinical trials and post-marketing surveillance of statins has revealed numerous case reports that characterize a transient and reversible cognitive loss. A review of 60 case reports described the main symptom of short-term memory loss that occurred a few months after the start of statin therapy or after an increase in dosage. Several case reports observed resolution of cognitive impairment upon discontinuation of the statin and recurrence of cognitive impairment upon rechallenging of the statin....The FDA described the symptoms as not serious and reversible with variability in symptom onset and resolution, but recognized the effects as potentially being caused by statin therapy. The FDA also stated that the cardiovascular benefits of statins outweigh these small increased risks..... Following the FDA’s announcement, researchers further examined the AERS database to explore the effects and if the evidence would allow for patients at higher risk to be identified . The researchers identified 2597 reports of cognitive impairment and a significantly higher proportion of adverse reports of cognitive dysfunction associated with potent, lipophilic statins, specifically, atorvastatin and simvastatin, compared to less lipophilic statins and selected drugs commonly used in the general population."

 

Certainly worth trying since you are noting symotoms., Nothing to lose by switching, and it might help while still controlling your lipids.

 

Note to other TV readers: that while there is increasing evidence to suggest that the lipophilic statins may cause some degree of (reversible) cognitive decline it occurs only in a minority of people. No need to be concerned if you are not experiencing problems.

[rumak]

On 6/17/2021 at 1:38 PM, Inderpland said:

Myth? Any links to credible souces to back up that claim?

 

any source against a popular drug is not deemed credible on many forums

Edited June 30, 2021 by rumak

[Surelynot]

On 6/17/2021 at 7:55 AM, swm59nj said:

Excellent point. Before I was put on Livalo I was on another brand.  Doctor took a blood test before deciding to change it.

Excellent point. Before I was put on Livalo I was on another brand.  Doctor accepted a brown envelope before deciding to change it....55

[rumak]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:49 PM, cooked said:

High cholesterol does not cause inflammation. The body produces cholesterol in order to protect against and repair problems caused by inflammation. 

More than half of patients delivered to hospitals with heart problems have cholesterol levels below those considered to be dangerous.

Meta analysis has shown that people with heart problems that take statins over long periods do not live longer than those that don't. 

Inflammation is caused by a bad diet, you can radically change your life by reducing carb intake, it certainly changed mine, despite my doctor telling me that a low carb diet was going to kill me (5 years ago). He wanted me to continue taking statins despite my good results. 

 

good for you !  (no sarcasm).       i too have done my own research and would never take cholesterol reducing drugs.

 

        

Edited June 30, 2021 by rumak

[steevjee]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:49 PM, Sheryl said:

Locally made brands are:

 

Lipostat

Tovastin

Atorvin

Chlovas

 

Are any of these Rosuvastatin?

[steevjee]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:09 PM, tifino said:

dumped all the Scripts for  the 'Statins, and adopted CoQ10 over the counter...   '

 

 

whereas 'Statins rip the guts out of both HDL and LDL (one likens Statins as the medicine cabinet equivalent of 'RoundUp in the garden' - where they are non selective in what they get rid of!! 

 

Losing HDLs alongside the happy to be ridden of LDL - means the body then does not have enough HDL left inside, to do their ongoing battles on bad cholesterol.'

 

CoQ10 rids the LDLs, ut Not at the expense of the reserves of HDL that 'are' needed

2nd that, is CoQ10 readily available in Thailand? if so at what cost please?

[3NUMBAS]

a twice yearly jab is in develpment as most people stop takng statins and have a heart attack

 

ime on simvastatin 10m  as less bad effects

[tifino]

41 minutes ago, steevjee said:

2nd that, is CoQ10 readily available in Thailand? if so at what cost please?

Googling 'CoQ10 Thailand' shows current Online opportunities... 

[BigStar]

14 hours ago, tifino said:

Googling 'CoQ10 Thailand' shows current Online opportunities... 

https://www.lazada.co.th/catalog/?q=CoQ10+&_keyori=ss&from=input

[Sheryl]

15 hours ago, steevjee said:

Are any of these Rosuvastatin?

 

 

Locally made  brands of rouvastatin include

 

Rosuvastatin GPO

Cholestar

Otagil

Rostatin

Rovastor

Surotin

[eezergood]

On 6/17/2021 at 1:45 PM, KhunBENQ said:

An important hint.

Before simply continuing or even changing medication I suggest to have a blood test for the liver function and let a doctor decide what is necessary or not.

If this is a chronic issue a calcium score would be smart - high cholesterol does not always mean increase risk.

[tinca tinca]

i use bestatin or zimmex, cost is about 400 baht per box.....and it is kept under control by these tabs.....40 mgs per tablet

[mudcat]

With brand names it is easy to get confused between the apples and oranges.

A number of sources give equivalent doses by mg between the actual medicines, important if you are going to self medicate.    Typically grouped by intensity or desired reduction.

e.g. 

 

http://www.mqic.org/pdf/UMHS_Statin_Dose_Intensity_and_Equivalency_Chart.pdf

[Skallywag]

On 6/17/2021 at 1:05 PM, mahtin said:

Niacin would be my choice too, but I simply refused statins 13 years ago.

Thought the cholesterol myth had been debunked.

Are heart attacks a myth?  Maybe strokes are also a myth?   

Cholesterol is real BTW

Stay rational and healthy

 ☮️

[eezergood]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:11 PM, Skallywag said:

Are heart attacks a myth?  Maybe strokes are also a myth?   

Cholesterol is real BTW

Stay rational and healthy

 ☮️

Cholesterol is ESSENTIAL BTW 

[cooked]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:39 PM, partington said:

 

 

 

 

.....

 Finally CoQ10 has not been shown to have any significant effect at all on LDL levels, though it does seem to raise HDL levels in trials, so this is the single correct statement in your post!

- see link- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30296936/

 

The effects of coenzyme Q10 supplementation on lipid profiles among patients with coronary artery disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials

Mohammad Vahid Jorat 1, Reza Tabrizi 2, Naghmeh Mirhosseini 3, Kamran B Lankarani 4, Maryam Akbari 2, Seyed Taghi Heydari 4, Reza Mottaghi 5, Zatollah Asemi 6  Lipids in Health and Disease 2018 Oct 9;17(1):230

 

"Results: A total of eight trials (267 participants in the intervention group and 259 in placebo group) were included in the current meta-analysis. The findings showed that taking CoQ10 by patients with CAD significantly decreased total-cholesterol (SMD -1.07; 95% CI, - 1.94, - 0.21, P = 0.01) and increased HDL-cholesterol levels (SMD 1.30; 95% CI, 0.20, 2.41, P = 0.02). We found no significant effects of CoQ10 supplementation on LDL-cholesterol [...]"

Coq10 replaces one of the many essential substances produced by your body that statins, while reducing cholesterol, also reduce. 

[Sheryl]

Post with large meme espousing misinformation has been removed along with replies to same.

[cooked]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090112130653.htm

[eezergood]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:11 PM, Skallywag said:

Are heart attacks a myth?  Maybe strokes are also a myth?   

Cholesterol is real BTW

Stay rational and healthy

 ☮️

Cholesterol is real & is needed by the body

[eezergood]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:33 PM, cooked said:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090112130653.htm

Yeah we really should be looking at calcium scoring for those at risk also