Transplanting a fan palm - possible or not?

[3STTW]

I have a giant fan palm which is getting up beyond 10m in height and it has spawned a pup which is growing like crazy, it hasn't formed a trunk yet but the fronds are already 2.5m+ and it will eventually cause a problem for the big daddy.

 

Question is, can I dig it up and replant it elsewhere in the garden without killing it? Is there a method to doing this?

[worgeordie]

Yes but you would have to keep a good root ball around it,

now would be a good time to do it, in the rainy season,

regards worgeordie

[drtreelove]

On 6/21/2021 at 8:01 AM, worgeordie said:

Yes but you would have to keep a good root ball around it,

now would be a good time to do it, in the rainy season,

regards worgeordie

It will likely be impossible to dig a root ball with an offshoot, as the pup will be tight-up and growing off the root crown of the parent palm.  To separate the offshoot is a very different procedure than digging a root ball with a stand-alone seedling, there is trauma and at least 50% root loss involved. It's possible to get a successful separation and transplant, but there will be a high risk of failure for the transplant, and some risk of infection with soil borne fungus for the parent tree at the exposed wound site. (like gandoderma butt rot).  If the situation is such that you can't allow the offshoot to mature, then it's safer for the parent tree to sacrifice the pup and cut it just above the soil grade.

 

If you choose to attempt the separation and transplant, then dig out a few inches or a foot on the outside and under the offshoot first, to create as much of a "root ball' as possible on the outside. Then make as clean a cut as possible between the offshoot and the parent tree, using a sharp shovel or digging bar.  Move and water in the transplant as soon as possible.  Backfill the soil and water the dig site. 

 

If you want to go all out for protection from soil borne pathogens, you can drench the wounded root crown, the backfill soil and transplant soil with a biological fungicide solution. I would choose a Trichoderma product like Trisan.

 

These extra precautions are from a professional standpoint, I've moved thousands of trees and have a very good success rate.  Most gardeners would just do a crude dig and move, and hope for the best.  

Edited June 25, 2021 by drtreelove

[cooked]

Something else you can try: dig around the pup and fill in with good quality compost. Wait a year, watering as necessary, then transplant. It should have a happy rootball by then.

[drtreelove]

How to Breed Palm Trees With Offshoots | Hunker

 

Growing Palm Pups: How To Transplant A Palm Pup (gardeningknowhow.com)

 

But no mattrer how good your offshoot separation technique is, cutting roots or opening a wound on the parent palm always presents some risk of infection. And risking the life of a 10 meter tall palm is no small matter.

 

In Rayong there are possibly oil palm plantations near enough that there are gandoderma fungal spores in the air and in the soil. 

 

Currently, the most known devastating oil palm disease throughout South-east Asia is basal stem rot (BSR) caused by Ganoderma boninense.

[3STTW]

@drtreelove, I apologise for the late response but thank you for all the really comprehensive information.

 

Given what you have said, we are probably going to cut down the pup, as much as I hate to do so, I don't want to risk any problems with the daddy and we would have trouble relocating the second tree anyhow. We are planning on a solar installation and the only viable locations for the tree are just going to shade the new panels in the future.

 

If I go ahead and cut the new fronds at ground level, what do I do to stop any further growth?

 

Regarding the fungal treatment, I could probably use some of this anyway; we have a weird 'matting' fungus which is spreading across our lawn and we're getting puff-ball mushrooms every time there's a thunderstorm - can I use the Trisan on my lawn?

 

One more issue, I have bugs eating my fox-tail palms at the crown. A couple of them have holes 3/4 up the trunk and are looking really sick, the others are producing half-eaten fronds. I climbed up one of the worst affected and cut away the dead material and found a bunch of larvae which I gassed with Baygone. It's sprung back to life although it's somewhat deformed due to the untreated infestation.

 

I've heard this is caused by some kind of beetle, can you advise on this and how to kill the little b*stards?

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[drtreelove]

13 minutes ago, 3STTW said:

@drtreelove, I apologise for the late response but thank you for all the really comprehensive information.

 

Given what you have said, we are probably going to cut down the pup, as much as I hate to do so, I don't want to risk any problems with the daddy and we would have trouble relocating the second tree anyhow. We are planning on a solar installation and the only viable locations for the tree are just going to shade the new panels in the future.

 

If I go ahead and cut the new fronds at ground level, what do I do to stop any further growth?

 

Regarding the fungal treatment, I could probably use some of this anyway; we have a weird 'matting' fungus which is spreading across our lawn and we're getting puff-ball mushrooms every time there's a thunderstorm - can I use the Trisan on my lawn?

 

One more issue, I have bugs eating my fox-tail palms at the crown. A couple of them have holes 3/4 up the trunk and are looking really sick, the others are producing half-eaten fronds. I climbed up one of the worst affected and cut away the dead material and found a bunch of larvae which I gassed with Baygone. It's sprung back to life although it's somewhat deformed due to the untreated infestation.

 

I've heard this is caused by some kind of beetle, can you advise on this and how to kill the little b*stards?

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Regarding possible re-sprouting of the cut pup, just cut again until it stops sprouting. Don't apply herbicide as it could translocate into the parent palm.

 

Re the Trisan biological fungicide, no it is best for preventive treatment of soil borne pathogens, but unlikely to be effective for what I think is an issue with break down of lawn clippings or build up of thatch.  I would try a monthly EM application (effective micro-organisms), widely available at garden shops, HomePro, Global House, etc and on Lazada.  I have used the EM product from Organic Totto successfully to assist in decomp of lawn clippings and thatch. 

 

The fungal matting and fruiting bodies (mushrooms) are likely a matter of soil and water management and possible poor drainage. If you are mowing without a catcher and leaving the clippings, it can be a good thing for building soil organic matter, but it can also be too much for the existing soil biology to digest, therefore the EM can help boost the biological activity.

 

The palm pest problem is serious. From your description of the damage, it sounds like coconut rhinoceros beetle (CRB) and/or red palm weevil infestation.  Although the "bunch of larvae" description doesn't fit.  If it were CRB or the weevil you would find individual large grubs.  Baygon crawling insect killer (or Chaindrite crack and crevice aerosol, or stedfast concentrate) is appropriate for a contact spray and as a drench for a preventive barrier sprayed at the base of the fronds.  It has an a.i. (active ingredients) of 2 pyrethroid insecticides, which is not organic program compatible, but IMO is the least toxic choice for effective chemical control. Then also follow-up with the sanitation, preventive suggestions from the attached papers. 

 

I hope that helps, Don

coconut_red_palm_weevil_180.pdf coconut_rhinoceros_beetle__melanesian_057.pdf

[3STTW]

Interesting, re: the palms, I rigged up a trigger mechanism for the Baygone spray and attached it to my telescopic pool pole and spent some time gassing the tree crowns. I sprayed it directly into the trees with the trunk holes because - why not - they're already sick. A week on and they're looking better - the new frond spikes are clean and 'unchewed'. But I know this is not a long term (or healthy) solution.

 

The lawn menace started last year when it got waterlogged during the rains. Our mower has a catch bucket and we dispose of the cuttings. In our last house the gardeners whip cut the lawns and left the cuttings, sure enough we ended up with a 'carpet' which you could lift up from the soil below. This one is couch and we try to cut it as often as the weather allows.

 

The fungus is a crust which I can rake out but it really destroys the grass cover, it grows back but crusty stuff comes back as well. I'm pretty sure this is a drainage problem too but I'm not sure how to fix it.

 

Do you have a photo of the EM product? I've tried asking staff in HomePro etc about various products but the vacant eyes and drool don't inspire much confidence.

[drtreelove]

Organic Totto - Home | Facebook

 

[drtreelove]

21 hours ago, 3STTW said:

Interesting, re: the palms, I rigged up a trigger mechanism for the Baygone spray and attached it to my telescopic pool pole and spent some time gassing the tree crowns. I sprayed it directly into the trees with the trunk holes because - why not - they're already sick. A week on and they're looking better - the new frond spikes are clean and 'unchewed'. But I know this is not a long term (or healthy) solution.

 

The lawn menace started last year when it got waterlogged during the rains. Our mower has a catch bucket and we dispose of the cuttings. In our last house the gardeners whip cut the lawns and left the cuttings, sure enough we ended up with a 'carpet' which you could lift up from the soil below. This one is couch and we try to cut it as often as the weather allows.

 

The fungus is a crust which I can rake out but it really destroys the grass cover, it grows back but crusty stuff comes back as well. I'm pretty sure this is a drainage problem too but I'm not sure how to fix it.

 

Do you have a photo of the EM product? I've tried asking staff in HomePro etc about various products but the vacant eyes and drool don't inspire much confidence.

em - Buy em at Best Price in Thailand | www.lazada.co.th

 

At Home Pro or Global House, go to the garden section where various fertilizer products are on the shelf (ask for pui, pui chemi, pui insee)

 

No amount of EM, chemical or organic treatment will be effective for the long term if there is a significant drainage problem. 

A thorough fix is best directed by a competent landscape architect, (Chula U, Kasetsart, MaeJo U and other ag schools have good programs) and can involve soil improvements or soil replacement, drainage tiles, etc.

 

There are some things that you can do yourself or by hiring and directing a local landscaper.  Assuming that the underlying soil is clayey and not sandy, like common construction sub-soil landfill, then a relatively inexpensive way to start improving the existing soil is an application of agricultural gypsum (natural mined calcium sulfate).  You can do this right over the existing lawn, before irrigating or a rain to water it in. Gypsum readily penetrates and helps to floccualte the clay and begin building a better, more permeable soil structure . It also facilitates leaching of salts and other excess and toxic chemistries. 

 

Where to get it is the big question.  Local garden centers and landscapers will not know about this. You will get sold lime or other calcium products instead, but these may not be appropriate without a soil test and knowing exactly what the product is.  Quality of the product is an issue, I've bought gypsum in Chiang Mai that was 50% hard brown lumps and impossible spread evenly without a lot of work to break it up. There is a new organic soil amendments company in the process of launching their website, facebook and lazada sales, and I just confirmed that they now stock gypsum. Best Garden State

 

[3STTW]

@drtreelove Apologies for the late reply, I got stranded with the aseannow change-over.

 

All your advice is much appreciated and makes me feel wholly inadequate to own a garden!

 

Anyhoo, I went to the garden centre at the w/e and showed her some pics of the lawn fungus crust and she gave me some stuff called Captan (phthalimide), apparently it's the same fungus that attacks rice and and can be prevented using said powder.

 

I'm going to rake out the remaining crust and treat it with the Captan and maybe 3 days later get some blue fertiliser on it. If that doesn't solve the problem, we're getting a new deck!

 

We also got some EM from HomePro and the missus is going to try that on the front lawns which are healthy - if a little yellow. Again, these are couch grass and haven't suffered like the one at the rear of the house.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by 3STTW

[drtreelove]

3 hours ago, 3STTW said:

@drtreelove Apologies for the late reply, I got stranded with the aseannow change-over.

 

All your advice is much appreciated and makes me feel wholly inadequate to own a garden!

 

Anyhoo, I went to the garden centre at the w/e and showed her some pics of the lawn fungus crust and she gave me some stuff called Captan (phthalimide), apparently it's the same fungus that attacks rice and and can be prevented using said powder.

 

I'm going to rake out the remaining crust and treat it with the Captan and maybe 3 days later get some blue fertiliser on it. If that doesn't solve the problem, we're getting a new deck!

 

We also got some EM from HomePro and the missus is going to try that on the front lawns which are healthy - if a little yellow. Again, these are couch grass and haven't suffered like the one at the rear of the house.

 

 

Captan is a chemical fungicide that will kill off the biology in your soil, most of which is beneficial, including the EM that you apply. The blue fertilizer is probably 15-15-15, a high NPK chemical fertilizer that also does more harm than good for soil and plant health and will make the plants a pest and disease magnet.   You are entering a vicious cycle of chemical dependancy instead of creating conditions for soil and plant health and enhancement of natural resistance to pests and diseases. 

 

captan.pdf (epa.gov)

 

How to Improve Lawn Soil for a Beautiful Yard | Planet Natural

[3STTW]

Crikey, it gets worse! Obviously the wifey at the garden shop isn't too interested in organic horticulture.

 

Okay, so I'm going to try the EM on the lawns and see if that improves their condition.

 

I bought 3x 50gm pots of the Trisan from Lazibaba, is there any advantage to adding this to the EM solution to kill off the mushroom spores - or should I just stick with the EM for now and let the microbes do the work?

 

On another note, we're going to start some tomato plants at the weekend, our previous efforts have been plagued by leaf miners and the plants have been very sickly from 6" of growth upwards. This time around we're using some German potting soil and keeping the pots off the ground, mix in some Perlite and add some neem compost which just arrived. Apparently, the neem compost helps the plant fight off the leaf miners and we also have a neem-based liquid which can dilute and use as a pesticide spray.

 

My darling wife said "best of luck with that!" having had several failed attempts with tomatoes, okra, squash and so on. If we can just find the right formula for soil, feed and pesticide, it would be a real achievement and would make her very happy! So any advice would be thoroughly appreciated.

[drtreelove]

On 7/9/2021 at 8:57 PM, 3STTW said:

Crikey, it gets worse! Obviously the wifey at the garden shop isn't too interested in organic horticulture.

 

Okay, so I'm going to try the EM on the lawns and see if that improves their condition.

 

I bought 3x 50gm pots of the Trisan from Lazibaba, is there any advantage to adding this to the EM solution to kill off the mushroom spores - or should I just stick with the EM for now and let the microbes do the work?

 

On another note, we're going to start some tomato plants at the weekend, our previous efforts have been plagued by leaf miners and the plants have been very sickly from 6" of growth upwards. This time around we're using some German potting soil and keeping the pots off the ground, mix in some Perlite and add some neem compost which just arrived. Apparently, the neem compost helps the plant fight off the leaf miners and we also have a neem-based liquid which can dilute and use as a pesticide spray.

 

My darling wife said "best of luck with that!" having had several failed attempts with tomatoes, okra, squash and so on. If we can just find the right formula for soil, feed and pesticide, it would be a real achievement and would make her very happy! So any advice would be thoroughly appreciated.

With some guess-work involved in remote advise without seeing the site or knowing all the conditions, I would say use the EM first. There may be some antagonistic action with the EM biology and the Trichoderma, one nullifying the other, but I'm not sure. Use the Trisan mixed in with your new potting soil, which would be a good pre-emptive strike against soil borne pathogens.

 

Neem seed oil extracts are potent insect and mite repellents. By-products of the extraction process and vegetative material is less potent by can still be somewhat useful. The actual product ingredients, concentration of the active ingredients, and effectiveness can vary considerably.  Some products are very dilute and just using the popular 'neem" term as a marketing ploy.  You probably can't go wrong with the neem compost, although I would not expect 100% effective pest control.  

The neem seed oil extract that is most potent and effective for arthopod pest control, is Azadirachtin concentrate. ("Aza" is one compontent of the complex neem biochemistry) If that is the "neem based liquid" you have, then hopefully its a good quality product and you can use that as a foliar (under side of leaves too), stem, soil surface spray every two weeks for prevention of infestation of the tomato leaf miner. The neem products are not highly curative, they will not be effective for an advanced infestation. This principal is important to understand for all organic program pest and disease managment, including biological fungicide like the Trisan: It's important to start preventive treatments early and not to think of it as a cure.   FactsheetUniversalTemplateV2 (plantwise.org)

 

For fertilizer, I recommend incorporating a COF (complete organic fertilizer) into the potting soil, or if already planted, then use it as a top dressing, or lightly incorporated into the soil surface without disturbing roots. The COF which is available in Thailand which I have used and trialed at several friends gardens and farms with great results, is a "bokashi" (complete plant nutrition, mineralized with built-in EM from the original Japanese formula) from Organic Totto. See attached file.

Bokashi fertilizer.docx

Edited July 12, 2021 by drtreelove

[3STTW]

Thanks very much mate, this is all very useful information. We're going to get some seeds going at the weekend and take your advice: try and create a preventative soil mix rather than trying to cure the problem after the fact. We have the components, it's just a matter of taking a bit of time to do it right.