UK personal income tax allowance for Thai wife on widow's pension.

[lungbing]

When I die my wife will get a window’s pension from my company pension scheme.  We have this in writing from them

 

But because she has never been resident of the UK she does not have an NI number which means she will be paying basic tax on the pension even though it is below the current yearly personal tax allowance for the UK.

 

I’ve read up on the HMRC forms  (Form R43 and explanatory notes) and I think she is eligible to claim the tax back at the end of the year.  It would be better if she were given a tax code and the pension company just used that to apply the personal allowance on an ongoing basis, but I suspect she will have to reclaim the money early each April. 

 

Has anybody any experience of this?

[Kwasaki]

If it's below basic tax free allowance then no tax should be taken, unless you have other UK assents she would be entitled to.

[lungbing]

If she had an NI number and tax code that would be true.  But she has neither.

[Pumpuynarak]

Good question "lungbing" i have the same issue. My wifey also will receive 50% of my company pension on my death but as it is above the UK threshold currently 12500 pa i beleive she obviously should pay income tax on the balance but i have a fear that they will tax her on the whole pension.

I intend to contact HMRC and my company pension scheme to ascertain what they will do when she makes her claim on my death.

 

When i get a reply i'll post accordingly. Don't hold your breath lol

[theoldgit]

I think a number of us may be in the same boat, I certainly am, I can't fully understand the expanatory notes though it seems to imply that a recipient of a widows pension resident here would be taxed and would then have to go through the claims procedure, I suspect my wife may well struggle to understand the procedure.

 

The tax on the Personal Allowance element is is about 9,400 Baht a month, so not an insignificant amount.

[hotandsticky]

14 hours ago, lungbing said:

If she had an NI number and tax code that would be true.  But she has neither.

 

 

For some reason I can't quote your earlier post with your question about a tax allowance.

 

 

Yes, she can get a tax allowance - it can be a tortuous, and prolonged,  process and beyond the capabilities of most Thai widows  -  if they don't have support from a Westerner.

[Kwasaki]

14 hours ago, lungbing said:

If she had an NI number and tax code that would be true.  But she has neither.

I think she would be given tax code and NI is not needed it would based on yours from what I understand.

My wife was given a tax code because we had a joint bank account in UK.

[prakhonchai nick]

From experience of helping several Thai widows following their husbands/partners death, the the occupational pension paid to a widow or bereaved partner...and children in many cases... is invariably paid without deduction of tax.  Only where there is a delay in claiming and arrears mount up, has tax been deducted.

Where tax has been incorrectly deducted details need to be sent to the relvant tax office who will sort matters out (more often than not in the next, not current tax year) and in such cases it

generally requires help from a British subject who knows a little about tax matters

 

The widow/partner needs to be aware that every year or so, she will receive the equivalent of a Life Certificate. which needs to be completed and returned speedily otherwise pensions are stopped.

 

Note also, where UK probate is required and a lawyer is involved, if the expat has been overseas for a while, they are regarded as domiciled outside the UK, and VAT on lawyers fees is exempt.

[LongTimeLurker]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

My wife was given a tax code because we had a joint bank account in UK.

How did she obtain that?

[LongTimeLurker]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:01 PM, lungbing said:

It would be better if she were given a tax code and the pension company just used that to apply the personal allowance on an ongoing basis,

When the Pension Company is paying the tax surely they have to submit a code that they are paying it on behalf of?

 

This may well be an "Emergency Code" and I don't know if this EC would translate into a permanent NI number for your wife,or each year there would be a new EC.

 

Maybe contact the Pension Company as they may have gone through this before?

[prakhonchai nick]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

When the Pension Company is paying the tax surely they have to submit a code that they are paying it on behalf of?

 

This may well be an "Emergency Code" and I don't know if this EC would translate into a permanent NI number for your wife,or each year there would be a new EC.

 

Maybe contact the Pension Company as they may have gone through this before?

The employer will most likely have done this before and know exactly what to do. Its no big issue, so don't worry about it.

[Kwasaki]

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

How did she obtain that?

She didn't obtain it she was given it by the HMRC because it was a joint bank account. 

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

She didn't obtain it she was given it by the HMRC because it was a joint bank account. 

I have a joint UK bank account with my wife but I doubt HMRC even know she exists.

 

So what were the circumstances of you wife being given a NI number?

[LongTimeLurker]

34 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

The employer will most likely have done this before and know exactly what to do. Its no big issue, so don't worry about it.

Just asking as a friend of mine has a similar problem.

 

Drawdown on his pension is being taxed when it shouldn't be and he can't reclaim the amount from HMRC unless he gives them a NI number which he has never had.

[prakhonchai nick]

21 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Just asking as a friend of mine has a similar problem.

 

Drawdown on his pension is being taxed when it shouldn't be and he can't reclaim the amount from HMRC unless he gives them a NI number which he has never had.

The Pension payer will, if requested, provide the necessary reference information for HMRC to begin the refund process.

[Kwasaki]

39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I have a joint UK bank account with my wife but I doubt HMRC even know she exists.

 

So what were the circumstances of you wife being given a NI number?

She wasn't given an N.I. No. because she was not allowed to work in UK but tax is paid on interest paid by the bank to a joint a/c so jointly we could claim the tax back, so to do that they gave her a HMRC tax No. 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, prakhonchai nick said:

The employer will most likely have done this before and know exactly what to do. Its no big issue, so don't worry about it.

I'm glad you're back where you been. ????

[LongTimeLurker]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

She wasn't given an N.I. No. because she was not allowed to work in UK but tax is paid on interest paid by the bank to a joint a/c so jointly we could claim the tax back, so to do that they gave her a HMRC tax No. 

Is this a UK onshore bank? or offshore?

 

Were you in UK at the time you set up the bank account?

 

We get yearly tax statements from the bank stating 0 tax paid as it's a current account. But then as it's an offshore account I guess they don't report to anyone.

 

Edit: I thought the HMRC tax number IS your NI number, it's what I use on all correspondence with them and it works.

Edited August 31, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Is this a UK onshore bank? or offshore?

 

Were you in UK at the time you set up the bank account?

 

We get yearly tax statements from the bank stating 0 tax paid as it's a current account. But then as it's an offshore account I guess they don't report to anyone.

 

Edit: I thought the HMRC tax number IS your NI number, it's what I use on all correspondence with them and it works.

I think you are over thinking I would guess everyone's situation could be different I'm talking what happen to me when my Thai wife was in England with me 18 years ago.

I had a bank account with a UK bank and asked them to open a joint a/c so my wife could have access to money while she was staying in England.

An N.I. number is not a tax reference number,  a tax reference number is a HMRC number which is given to someone who pays tax so you can claim it back if required.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:13 PM, Kwasaki said:

I think you are over thinking I would guess everyone's situation could be different I'm talking what happen to me when my Thai wife was in England with me 18 years ago.

I had a bank account with a UK bank and asked them to open a joint a/c so my wife could have access to money while she was staying in England.

An N.I. number is not a tax reference number,  a tax reference number is a HMRC number which is given to someone who pays tax so you can claim it back if required.

 

Well I never knew that before! My last employment in UK was in 1984 though and I only had a NI number back then, is the HMRC tax code something new? Well new since 1984?

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Well I never knew that before! My last employment in UK was in 1984 though and I only had a NI number back then, is the HMRC tax code something new? Well new since 1984?

Well I still have an N.I number and I do have a HMRC tax number.

[OJAS]

19 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Well I never knew that before! My last employment in UK was in 1984 though and I only had a NI number back then, is the HMRC tax code something new? Well new since 1984?

HMRC assigned me a 10-digit tax code after I had moved out here in 2008 and rented out the property I owned and lived in prior to the move, meaning that I then needed to provide them with annual tax returns as a non-resident landlord.

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by OJAS

[LongTimeLurker]

16 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Well I still have an N.I number and I do have a HMRC tax number.

Whenever I deal with HMRC I quote my NI number, but it's always to do with NI contributions, I don't do tax since I left UK in 1984.

 

Would there maybe be a HMRC tax code on an old P60?

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, OJAS said:

HMRC assigned me a 10-digit tax code after I had moved out here in 2008 and rented out the property I owned and lived in prior to the move, meaning that I then needed to provide them with annual tax returns as a non-resident landlord.

 

Right, I have no tax liability in UK so have never had to do that.

 

So maybe when the missus starts to rent out the flat in UK then HMRC will give her a tax code.

[Kwasaki]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Whenever I deal with HMRC I quote my NI number, but it's always to do with NI contributions, I don't do tax since I left UK in 1984.

 

Would there maybe be a HMRC tax code on an old P60?

Yes mine is. 

[treetops]

12 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Would there maybe be a HMRC tax code on an old P60?

 

11 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Yes mine is. 

Just looked at one from 2013-14 tax year and no HMRC ID code.

 

NI number, Works/payroll number, tax allowance code and Employer PAYE reference was all.

Edited September 5, 2021 by treetops

[Mutt Daeng]

18 hours ago, OJAS said:

HMRC assigned me a 10-digit tax code after I had moved out here in 2008 and rented out the property I owned and lived in prior to the move, meaning that I then needed to provide them with annual tax returns as a non-resident landlord.

 

Same here when I moved here in 2009. The 10 digit code (sometimes has letter K at the end) is called a UTR (unique taxpayer reference) number and is assigned by HMRC to each self-assessment taxpayer so they can track their tax records.

[Kwasaki]

7 hours ago, treetops said:

 

Just looked at one from 2013-14 tax year and no HMRC ID code.

 

NI number, Works/payroll number, tax allowance code and Employer PAYE reference was all.

I not bothering to look for mine, I still have P45 and HMRC letter to my wife with her a tax number for reference.

Best you ring HMRC UK up below was googled in 3 secs.

 

"The tax office reference number is a unique combination of letters and numbers used by HMRC to identify different employer payroll schemes. ... The first part of the reference is made up of three numbers which will correspond to a particular tax office and informs HMRC which tax office looks after that particular employer."

[theoldgit]

The Tax Code on my monthly online payslip is the Personal Allowance minus my State Pension, this figure is for my Pension Provider to ensure they deduct the full tax due.

 

Any letters I've received from HMRC just have my NI Number.

 

My P60's show the tax code and the NI Number.

 

I'd be interested to hear if an earlier poster receives a response from the HMRC regarding the PA for his widow on his eventual demise, it seems ridiculous that a recipient of a Widows Pension should be charged tax on the total paid and then have to go through the rigmarole of seeking a refund every year.

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, Mutt Daeng said:

Same here when I moved here in 2009. The 10 digit code (sometimes has letter K at the end) is called a UTR (unique taxpayer reference) number and is assigned by HMRC to each self-assessment taxpayer so they can track their tax records.

Maybe this is the difference?