Carbs or protein for breakfast?

[robblok]

53 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

OK, I agree with you that OMAD is not suitable for everybody. Even though I have practiced it and feel comfortable with it, I'm planning to change over to two meals a day (lunch and dinner).  My point all along is not about OMAD but about skipping breakfasts.

 

In real simplistic terms, I'm just saying that prolonging the fasted state of sleep by skipping breakfast is beneficial, not just for obese people but for everyone, and the reason is simply that it allows the body to reduce insulin levels throughout the day just enough so that pathways for BOTH glucose and lipid pathways are optimized.

 

If you are always in a satiated state, you are not optimally exercising the pathways for lipid metabolism, and like anything that is not adequately exercised, it becomes compromised if not used.

 

And again, I fail to find any science-based studies that prove that "breakfast is the most important meal of the day". When you look purely at the metabolic mechanisms involved, there are more negative aspects to eating breakfast than positive ones.

 

I also agree that many proponents of Keto overemphasize insulin as a culprit, but the fact remains that there is a growing obesity and diabetes epidemic in the world today, and it coincides with the emergence of junk foods, 24 hour supermarkets, and the prolific use of processed foods, all of which cause may people to have turned into "food grazers" who consume food from the moment the wake up until the moment they go to bed.

 

What's more, most of those food grazers consume FAR MORE carbohydrates than the body needs.  This leads to excessively high insulin levels in the body. 

 

The result of abnormally high insulin levels over time are:

• 1) Inhibited lipolysis  (fewer fatty acids are available to fuel muscles and other metabolically driven tissues.  

• 2) Stimulated lipogenesis.  a shift from "fat burning mode" to "fat storing mode"

OK, sure, if you consume large quantities of carbs but keep your glucose to 5% as you describe (i.e.: by burning the glucose through exercise for instance), increased insulin levels are still present, and over time this will lead to diminished efficiency of insulin receptors in the cells, and a shift in metabolic pathways for glucose/lipids that cause inhibited lipolysis and stimulated lipogenesis.

 

It's NOT all about glucose levels!  Insulin plays just as important a role in metabolic health, and keeping it at optimal levels is just as important as keeping glucose at optimal levels.

 

I function really bad when i skip breakfast. But I am not like other people. I start my meal at 8 and don't eat after 17:00 So quite a long break from food. Only time i do eat at night is on weight lifting days then i take a cassein shake at night.

 

Finally got my rowing up to 20 minutes. Next step is bring it up to 5000 meters (probably just 21 minutes or so).

 

But im rowing each and every day, in the morning and my 3 weightlifting sessions for full body. 

 

So combined with the right foods, the covid fat is rapidly going away. Already no belly or anything. But not going stop till i really cant go any lower.

[WaveHunter]

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I like to make my own based on oats and nuts with a dash of naturell yoghurt and a banana. Good start or at least a good meal any time of the day. 

These days, home-made is usually a better way to go for sure!

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I function really bad when i skip breakfast. But I am not like other people. I start my meal at 8 and don't eat after 17:00 So quite a long break from food. Only time i do eat at night is on weight lifting days then i take a cassein shake at night.

 

Finally got my rowing up to 20 minutes. Next step is bring it up to 5000 meters (probably just 21 minutes or so).

 

But im rowing each and every day, in the morning and my 3 weightlifting sessions for full body. 

 

So combined with the right foods, the covid fat is rapidly going away. Already no belly or anything. But not going stop till i really cant go any lower.

Well that works too ????. So, maybe we're on the same page after all.  Whether it skipping breakfast or not eating after 5pm, we are both extending the fasted state in one way or another, and that's all I'm really talking about.

 

It's funny you should mention casein protein.  I was just watching something on this the other day! 

 

It was in a YouTube video about protein requirements for optimal performance, and he discussed the use of pre-sleep use casein protein.  It is at 29:58 in the attached video.

 

 

The author of the video is a guy with an MS in exercise physiology and currently a doctoral candidate in metabolic medicine.

 

The videos he produces are NOT the run-of-the-mill dopey videos by YouTube Gurus.  This guy really knows his stuff on a wide range of metabolic topics, many of which are geared specifically towards athletes. 

 

It is ALL science-based, and he backs up everything with links to the supporting peer-reviewed studies he references.  What's more he is one of the most objective and unbiased YouTubers I've ever seen!  When there are two schools of thought on a topic, he discusses both and is passionate about his view BUT leave it to you to decide for yourself.

 

While he is still a med school student, he is also teaching undergraduate classes in biology and nutrition, and has a working fellowship in a major research lab, co-authoring some of the peer-reviewed papers produced, so his credentials are far beyond those of the most of the so-called YouTube nutrition gurus out there!

 

THe playlist of his YouTube channel is wide-ranging covering all sorts of metabolic topics of interest.  Some are just topical 5 minute videos, but some go into great depth, yet are delivered in easy-to-understand (but not dumbed down) fashion.

 

Sorry to be SO enthusiastic but I just discovered his channel and am VERY impressed!

 

Well worth scanning his playlist for topics of interest and subscribing for new content!

 

His YouTube channel is:

PHYSIONICS - Learn Your Body

 

[WaveHunter]

@robblok  Also watch "One *Weird* Trick" in above video at 44:44.  I bet you may not have heard of this before, and it's kind of cool ????

 

Even if you consider yourself well read on protein, I'd still watch this whole video because there are plenty of take-aways that I'll bet you are not familiar with.  I sure wasn't!

[robblok]

41 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

@robblok  Also watch "One *Weird* Trick" in above video at 44:44.  I bet you may not have heard of this before, and it's kind of cool ????

 

Even if you consider yourself well read on protein, I'd still watch this whole video because there are plenty of take-aways that I'll bet you are not familiar with.  I sure wasn't!

I will watch it but to be honest I don't worry too much about protein anymore. The cassein is an exception as my programs are getting so demanding that i need recovery. Especially now that i added the rowing. Plus later on i want to add incline walking on a treadmill or even HIIT on a airbike.

 

But that is all future dreams as i want to keep some tricks up my sleeve for when i hit a fat loss plateau. 

[LoveThai94]

I did a 40% protein, 20% fat and 40% carbs (Complex with good fiber)  and had great success.

I tried many other diets but the above have been the most effective.

 

 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I will watch it but to be honest I don't worry too much about protein anymore. The cassein is an exception as my programs are getting so demanding that i need recovery. Especially now that i added the rowing. Plus later on i want to add incline walking on a treadmill or even HIIT on a airbike.

 

But that is all future dreams as i want to keep some tricks up my sleeve for when i hit a fat loss plateau. 

It was just interesting to listen to interpretations of science-based studies on the subject instead of all the myths and unfounded information that floats around on the internet these days.

 

Based on what I learned I think I need to up my protein intake just because I am over 50 now, and I've noticed a lot more issues with recovery time lately, and think that may be why. 

 

According to the research that was highlighted in that video it seems that as you age over 50 more or less, your protein needs increase by about 50% over what they were before.

 

So, for myself, engaging primarily in aerobic activity (cycling and running) I was going by the benchmark of 1.0 - 1.6 grams / kg of bodyweight, BUT this research about proteins needs for over-50 year olds suggest 1.6 - 2.4 g per day. 

 

I have always stayed on the low end of those guidelines but think I'll try for the higher side and see what happens.  So, 2.4 g of protein per day.  What do you think??

 

Also, the issue of timing was discussed, where optimal amount of protein per meal is really only 20g.  Do you agree with that?

 

  I've heard that before but there was a lot of research that inferred it was much higher because of how slowly protein gets absorbed over time and also because a good portion of it that can't be gets held in the intestines until it can be used...BUT I've always been suspicious of that since it contradicts the concept of gluconeogenesis.

 

SO...now I'm seriously thinking of abandoning OMAD and including lunch, or maybe even going back to 3 meals a day...SURPRISE, SURPRISE LOL!  I had been considering abandoning OMAD for a while now, but our recent debate really got me thinking about all of this.

 

I still feel strongly about the position I took about insulin, but this whole thing about protein is kind of a game changer for me now.  Anyway, I thought you'd get a kick out of my turn-about ????

 

 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

It was just interesting to listen to interpretations of science-based studies on the subject instead of all the myths and unfounded information that floats around on the internet these days.

 

Based on what I learned I think I need to up my protein intake just because I am over 50 now, and I've noticed a lot more issues with recovery time lately, and think that may be why. 

 

According to the research that was highlighted in that video it seems that as you age over 50 more or less, your protein needs increase by about 50% over what they were before.

 

So, for myself, engaging primarily in aerobic activity (cycling and running) I was going by the benchmark of 1.0 - 1.6 grams / kg of bodyweight, the these guidelines for over-50 suggest 1.5 - 2.4 g per day.  I have always stayed on the low end of those guidelines but think I'll try for the higher side and see what happens.  So, 2.4 g of protein per day.  What do you think??

 

Also, the issue of timing was discussed, where optimal amount of protein per meal is really only 20g.  Do you agree with that?

 

  I've heard that before but there was a lot of research that inferred it was much higher because of how slowly protein gets absorbed over time and also because a good portion of it that can't be gets held in the intestines until it can be used...BUT I've always been suspicious of that since it contradicts the concept of gluconeogenesis.

 

SO...now I'm seriously thinking of abandoning OMAD and including lunch, or maybe even going back to 3 meals a day...SURPRISE, SURPRISE LOL!  I had been considering abandoning OMAD for a while now, but our recent debate really got me thinking about all of this.

 

I still feel strongly about the position I took about insulin, but this whole thing about protein is kind of a game changer for me now.  Anyway, I thought you'd get a kick out of my turn-about ????

 

 

That research must be a bodybuilder supplements seller dream come true. I always went for bout 1.5g per kg (max) Or at least did not aim for more.

 

But if its 20 grams per sitting I dont agree with. But if its true it would give me a headache for sure ????

 

I thought it was much higher like 50 grams or so. But not like 100g. But if 20, pff then i need to be sipping protein all the time ????

 

I will be looking into it. About the amount that can be digested. 

 

I mean you came with evolution at some point, would that mean all the meat that people eat only 20 grams of protein is used. Does not really sound right. I will look into it.

 

But basically I dont care much about muscle building anymore (got enough) but recovery that is an other story. As im now placing a lot of stress on my body with 7 days of rowing and 3 days of lifting and maybe more in future.

[WaveHunter]

25 minutes ago, robblok said:

That research must be a bodybuilder supplements seller dream come true. I always went for bout 1.5g per kg (max) Or at least did not aim for more.

 

But if its 20 grams per sitting I dont agree with. But if its true it would give me a headache for sure ????

 

I thought it was much higher like 50 grams or so. But not like 100g. But if 20, pff then i need to be sipping protein all the time ????

 

I will be looking into it. About the amount that can be digested. 

 

I mean you came with evolution at some point, would that mean all the meat that people eat only 20 grams of protein is used. Does not really sound right. I will look into it.

 

But basically I dont care much about muscle building anymore (got enough) but recovery that is an other story. As im now placing a lot of stress on my body with 7 days of rowing and 3 days of lifting and maybe more in future.

He only was kind of topical about this but the research paper he was referring to is linked on his YouTube page and he even said it goes into much more detail for those who are interested.  He is talking about science-based "optimal" utilization of ingested protein (not necessarily practical, everyday advice), and it all has to do with how the body digests protein.

 

The takeaway for me is that I no longer feel confident that an aerobically active person can get adequate protein from only one meal per day.  You can if you lead a sedentary lifestyle where only 0.8 grams/kg of body weight is required, but not if you are moderately active.

 

Check out his playlist of podcasts though.  His knowledge of metabolic sciences that's focused on exercise physiology is widespread and very deep, and he takes a very objective and unbiased approach to providing actionable information, unlike most sources of nutritional information you find on the internet these days. 

 

What's more, he's got a way of describing complex topics in an easy-to understand way so that you really can really appreciate the underlying science (without dumbing it down), and giving you the sources so you can drill down more on your own to learn even more.

[robblok]

5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

He only was kind of topical about this but the research paper he was referring to is linked on his YouTube page and he even said it goes into much more detail for those who are interested.  He is talking about science-based "optimal" utilization of ingested protein (not necessarily practical, everyday advice), and it all has to do with how the body digests protein.

 

The takeaway for me is that I no longer feel confident that an aerobically active person can get adequate protein from only one meal per day.  You can if you lead a sedentary lifestyle where only 0.8 grams/kg of body weight is required, but not if you are moderately active.

 

Check out his playlist of podcasts though.  His knowledge of metabolic sciences that's focused on exercise physiology is widespread and very deep, and he takes a very objective and unbiased approach to providing actionable information, unlike most sources of nutritional information you find on the internet these days. 

 

What's more, he's got a way of describing complex topics in an easy-to understand way so that you really can really appreciate the underlying science (without dumbing it down), and giving you the sources so you can drill down more on your own to learn even more.

Interesting, i think he says that you can take more protein in one sitting its then just not used as efficiently. 

 

The cassein thing was not news to me i read about that often its one of the reasons for me taking it. But as i am trying to lose weight im also not taking too much protein. (extra). 

 

But for me a good cassein shake at night is a treat (if made with milk)

 

 

[balo]

If you eat an oatmeal every morning you can live on that until dinner time. Eat some fruit in between.  I also mix in natural yoghurt and blueberries. And eat some nuts. 

I am 57 and weigh 89 kilo / height 191 cm. 

I have no interest in body building, I just want to stay slim and do some daily exercises like walking 10k or lift some weights.  


 

[shdmn]

56 minutes ago, balo said:

If you eat an oatmeal every morning you can live on that until dinner time. Eat some fruit in between.  I also mix in natural yoghurt and blueberries. And eat some nuts. 

I am 57 and weigh 89 kilo / height 191 cm. 

I have no interest in body building, I just want to stay slim and do some daily exercises like walking 10k or lift some weights.  


 

When you get older you need more protein because your body is not as good at processing it.  I think that is partly why you see so many older guys looking all shriveled up.  Yogurt and nuts are not going to cut it imo.  You need some meat in there as well, or protein powder, or both.  At least 1g of protein per kg weight per day. If working out regularly then maybe 1.5.  You also need to spread that out throughout the day.  You can't just inhale half a chicken in one meal and expect your body to be able to process all of it the way it might have been able to do when you were younger.

 

A chicken breast has about 30-50g of protein btw.  A little 7/11 container of yogurt (170ml) might have about 17g.  10 almonds have maybe 2.5g. 

[WaveHunter]

17 hours ago, robblok said:

Interesting, i think he says that you can take more protein in one sitting its then just not used as efficiently. 

 

The cassein thing was not news to me i read about that often its one of the reasons for me taking it. But as i am trying to lose weight im also not taking too much protein. (extra). 

 

But for me a good cassein shake at night is a treat (if made with milk)

 

 

Yes, precisely.  Basically the study he referenced found that the first 20 grams of protein ingested from a meal give you the "best bang for your buck" in terms of muscle protein synthesis (MPS), and any incremental increase above 20 grams has diminishing returns. 

 

What surprised me was that the incremental increase in muscle protein synthesis when you consume more than 20 grams was VERY small.  For example, doubling protein intake from 20 grams to 40 grams per meal will only yield a 10% increase in muscle protein synthesis (MPS).

 

This realization also supports the notion of casein as a source of slow protein absorption to enhance muscle protein synthesis while you sleep.

 

So, now I seriously question the efficacy of OMAD (one meal a day) if you are an active person.  Maybe OMAD is OK for a sedentary person, but it's kind of a wake-up call for me that if you are a more active individual, more meals per day are necessary to ensure adequate muscle protein synthesis...especially if resistance training is part of your routine.

 

Here is a graph showing the results in MPS from 20 grams vs 40 grams:

 

 

Here is a clearer illustration:

 

This is from:

The Muscle Protein Synthetic Response to Meal Ingestion Following Resistance-Type Exercise

originally published in Sports Medicine Journal on 18 June 2019

 

If you want to see the actual report along with notes in the margin, see:  https://15c4b111-e23f-4c41-a54a-1b5f21d5ad66.filesusr.com/ugd/62c7d2_5f663f4afc40455bb6bf13d16d96bf73.pdf 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

Just to be graphic about it, here were his suggestions about daily protein requirements (also based on the same study I linked above):

 

1) The effect of a 40 grams of casein drink ((or a protein / carb meal) before bedtime to allow for extended muscle protein synthesis while you sleep:  

 

2) Daily suggested protein requirements depending on goals and circumstances, based on this study:

3) Overall conclusions based on the study:

[Hummin]

16 hours ago, shdmn said:

When you get older you need more protein because your body is not as good at processing it.  I think that is partly why you see so many older guys looking all shriveled up.  Yogurt and nuts are not going to cut it imo.  You need some meat in there as well, or protein powder, or both.  At least 1g of protein per kg weight per day. If working out regularly then maybe 1.5.  You also need to spread that out throughout the day.  You can't just inhale half a chicken in one meal and expect your body to be able to process all of it the way it might have been able to do when you were younger.

 

A chicken breast has about 30-50g of protein btw.  A little 7/11 container of yogurt (170ml) might have about 17g.  10 almonds have maybe 2.5g. 

Are you measuring the protein intake by body total weight or body lean weight? For so many years many based it on total weight, and not body type lean weight. Taking to much protein is just wasting good protein for energy instead. . 

 

"When we consume excessive amounts of protein, depending on the ease of access to other forms of energy, the body could convert the protein into sugar, stored as fat. When people attempt to increase their protein intake, they often raise their overall calorie intake, which leads to weight gain."

 

 

[WaveHunter]

21 hours ago, shdmn said:

When you get older you need more protein because your body is not as good at processing it.  I think that is partly why you see so many older guys looking all shriveled up.  Yogurt and nuts are not going to cut it imo.  You need some meat in there as well, or protein powder, or both.  At least 1g of protein per kg weight per day. If working out regularly then maybe 1.5.  You also need to spread that out throughout the day.  You can't just inhale half a chicken in one meal and expect your body to be able to process all of it the way it might have been able to do when you were younger.

 

A chicken breast has about 30-50g of protein btw.  A little 7/11 container of yogurt (170ml) might have about 17g.  10 almonds have maybe 2.5g. 

Actually a recent and well vetted study determined that over the age of 60 you need to consume about 50% more protein daily.  I just posted the daily protein guidelines from the study above, so if you are over 60, you'd want to increase those numbers by 50%.  The study is also linked in the post right above the one I am mentioning for those who want to check it out.

 

Also, you should be aware that no matter what your age, you need to spread out protein intake through the day because the most your body can "effectively" assimilate per meal is around 20 grams.  This study showed that, for instance, if you increase your intake from 20 grams to 40 grams in a single meal, muscle protein synthesis only increases by about 10%.

[robblok]

13 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Actually a recent and well vetted study determined that over the age of 60 you need to consume about 50% more protein daily.  I just posted the daily protein guidelines from the study above, so if you are over 60, you'd want to increase those numbers by 50%.  The study is also linked in the post right above the one I am mentioning for those who want to check it out.

 

Also, you should be aware that no matter what your age, you need to spread out protein intake through the day because the most your body can "effectively" assimilate per meal is around 20 grams.  This study showed that, for instance, if you increase your intake from 20 grams to 40 grams in a single meal, muscle protein synthesis only increases by about 10%.

I never really went overboard with protein (ok as a kid when i trained 18yo i did) but after that i just went for 1 gram 1.5gram per kg of bodyweight. Not really thinking of spreading it out.

Now as I am quite muscular (or so i think). I give it even less thought as I am on TRT and believe that that helps me maintain what i have. Plus the heavy workouts of course. So I am not ever thinking about gaining muscle. I also am NOT losing strength. I am not getting stronger always hover around the same i did in the past.

 

I still love working out love how it feels after a hard workout. Now that i added rowing as cardio i do take a bit more protein as 7 rowing workouts and 3 full body lifting workouts on a caloric defict are not ideal for recovery.

[WaveHunter]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:11 AM, robblok said:

I function really bad when i skip breakfast. But I am not like other people. I start my meal at 8 and don't eat after 17:00 So quite a long break from food. Only time i do eat at night is on weight lifting days then i take a cassein shake at night.

 

Finally got my rowing up to 20 minutes. Next step is bring it up to 5000 meters (probably just 21 minutes or so).

 

But im rowing each and every day, in the morning and my 3 weightlifting sessions for full body. 

 

So combined with the right foods, the covid fat is rapidly going away. Already no belly or anything. But not going stop till i really cant go any lower.

I guess the Covid lockdowns really did a number on everyone's fitness levels.  It sure did for me ????. I put on almost 20 lbs which I'm now trying to get rid of, and my runs and cycling performance are way down.  It's amazing how quickly you lose performance when you're not doing those kind of activities on a regular basis.  It's like starting from scratch getting back into it all ????  And then, for me, once I commit to getting back in shape the "I'll start tomorrow" syndrome starts in.

 

Long story short, I'm back in the saddle again.  I just hope we don't face another lockdown!

[robblok]

41 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I guess the Covid lockdowns really did a number on everyone's fitness levels.  It sure did for me ????. I put on almost 20 lbs which I'm now trying to get rid of, and my runs and cycling performance are way down.  It's amazing how quickly you lose performance when you're not doing those kind of activities on a regular basis.  It's like starting from scratch getting back into it all ????  And then, for me, once I commit to getting back in shape the "I'll start tomorrow" syndrome starts in.

 

Long story short, I'm back in the saddle again.  I just hope we don't face another lockdown!

Its not too bad for me, but yea it did a number on me but was mentally. I have a good gym at home so cant blame lockdown.

 

But i never stopped training, just ate too much. Now doing cardio for the first time in years.

[strikingsunset]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:11 AM, robblok said:

I function really bad when i skip breakfast. But I am not like other people. I start my meal at 8 and don't eat after 17:00 So quite a long break from food. Only time i do eat at night is on weight lifting days then i take a cassein shake at night.

 

Finally got my rowing up to 20 minutes. Next step is bring it up to 5000 meters (probably just 21 minutes or so).

 

But im rowing each and every day, in the morning and my 3 weightlifting sessions for full body. 

 

So combined with the right foods, the covid fat is rapidly going away. Already no belly or anything. But not going stop till i really cant go any lower.

 

[strikingsunset]

Hi, I am using the Concept 2 Rower, you say 5000m   in 22 minutes, to me that is stunning, I can get to 27 minutes at a push , is it my age ( shortly 67) or do i need to review my technique

[robblok]

56 minutes ago, strikingsunset said:

Hi, I am using the Concept 2 Rower, you say 5000m   in 22 minutes, to me that is stunning, I can get to 27 minutes at a push , is it my age ( shortly 67) or do i need to review my technique

I think its your age, im 47 i am now untrained and i have done it in 20 minutes before (even a bit lower before). But I need time to get back to that shape. I would say my technique is not great. Buti got a lot of leg and back strength. But this is just week 3 for me and im not pushing myself really hard as it would kill my weightlifting sessions. 

 

I row every day now and if i push myself too hard other workouts will suffer. But i think what your doing is not bad at all for your age. 

 

I just did my first treadmill session in years (GF got a treadmil) and it was killing me. So it seems that it does not transfer well (i mean the stamina) Though i noticed improvements in my lifting (less panting with deadlifts and squats) after i got my rowing going again. 

[WaveHunter]

18 hours ago, robblok said:

I think its your age, im 47 i am now untrained and i have done it in 20 minutes before (even a bit lower before). But I need time to get back to that shape. I would say my technique is not great. Buti got a lot of leg and back strength. But this is just week 3 for me and im not pushing myself really hard as it would kill my weightlifting sessions. 

 

I row every day now and if i push myself too hard other workouts will suffer. But i think what your doing is not bad at all for your age. 

 

I just did my first treadmill session in years (GF got a treadmil) and it was killing me. So it seems that it does not transfer well (i mean the stamina) Though i noticed improvements in my lifting (less panting with deadlifts and squats) after i got my rowing going again. 

I think rowing is not only an amazing cardio style workout but it is also excellent for maintaining a healthy posterior chain (muscles that support the spine).  I think it's far better for you than running or treadmills because it's less taxing on knee joints and provides a much better overall body workout than running.

 

When I had a bad disk rupture (and it was really bad!) from martial arts, the doctor I consulted (a neurosurgeon) actually shocked me by the following advice, after looking at my MRI.

 

He said that the damage was not severe and that over time the rupture would repair itself!  I didn't think that was even possible but sure enough, after about a month the pain started to diminish on its' own, and when a follow up MRI was done 3 months later, the extruded material from the nucleus had disappeared and the torn annulus had actually had mended itself.

 

Then he really blew my mind when he said I should start training with kettlebells and a rowing machine to restore strength to the posterior chain of muscles that support the spine.

 

Well I took his advice and it worked pretty much.  I still have bouts of back pain but that is due to issues from spending too much time sitting at the computer (tightening of the quadratus lumborum), and not enough time devoted to proper stretching (another thing a lot of people discount that they shouldn't).

 

Most people don't pay much attention to taking care of their posterior chain muscles...until they start to have back problems, and if you are like me and spend long hours at the computer, back problems are only a matter of time unless you take measures now.

[robblok]

You should look at this once. Again echoes my problems with KETO 

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

You should look at this once. Again echoes my problems with KETO 

Like I was saying in PM, Keto gurus (especially on YouTube have really distorted the essence of what Keto is all about, and advocating things that really fly in the face of science-based logic.  The essense of Keto is very simple:  Keep carbs low enough so that fat adaptation can occur.  It's a very simple concept, really.

 

I think a lot of the nonsense they throw out there is actually unhealthy, encouraging people to load up on excessive amounts of fats, as though there is nothing unhealthy about that when in fact anything overdone is not a good thing.

 

I think many of them are more interested in monetizing Keto for their own benefit than really helping people.

 

The overriding thing that should be kept in mind is that Keto is NOT a weight loss diet!  It is a nutritional paradigm for optimized metabolic health. 

 

Do it right, and you'll have no need to ever be counting calories or be on a weight loss diet.  Your body will just naturally take care of that if you limit carbs and stay away from heavily processed foods and sugar.

[Hummin]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

You should look at this once. Again echoes my problems with KETO 

Keto is a great short term solution to loose weight, and easy. But not sustainable for long term in my opionion. But how to convince someone who have a religious approach to their belief in science and proof. 

 

Jeff is one of my favorites when I need to check up on something related to training and diet. Great channel

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

Keto is a great short term solution to loose weight, and easy. But not sustainable for long term in my opionion. But how to convince someone who have a religious approach to their belief in science and proof. 

 

Jeff is one of my favorites when I need to check up on something related to training and diet. Great channel

I think it is in fact sustainable...for a lifetime, if you practice keto in real basic terms as it was really intended (and not the hyped up way many YouTube Keto Gurus would have you believe.

 

"Keto" really is nothing more than keeping carbs down enough so that fat adaptation occurs, and avoiding highly processed foods with lots of sugar.  That's really all there is to the concept of Keto.  Too many people think of Keto as a weight loss diet, that once they lose the weight, they can go back to eating anything they want, and that's a fallacy.

 

The fact is, the human body is designed (if you will) to be fueled BOTH by glucose and fat.  In today's world with all the highly processed foods that are rich in carbs, for many people their body has lost the ability to utilize stored fat optimally, and also their body is primed to be a fat storing system rather than a fat burning system.  Keto simply brings the body back to the way it was intended to be.

 

Once you let Keto make you fat adapted again, it's a healthy, sustainable, and highly satisfying way to eat.  That's my view of it anyway  ????

 

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I think it is in fact sustainable...for a lifetime, if you practice keto in real basic terms as it was really intended (and not the hyped up way many YouTube Keto Gurus would have you believe.

 

"Keto" really is nothing more than keeping carbs down enough so that fat adaptation occurs, and avoiding highly processed foods with lots of sugar.  That's really all there is to the concept of Keto.  Too many people think of Keto as a weight loss diet, that once they lose the weight, they can go back to eating anything they want, and that's a fallacy.

 

The fact is, the human body is designed (if you will) to be fueled BOTH by glucose and fat.  In today's world with all the highly processed foods that are rich in carbs, for many people their body has lost the ability to utilize stored fat optimally, and also their body is primed to be a fat storing system rather than a fat burning system.  Keto simply brings the body back to the way it was intended to be.

 

Once you let Keto make you fat adapted again, it's a healthy, sustainable, and highly satisfying way to eat.  That's my view of it anyway  ????

 

For me it is about eating well, healthy and not about diet. Keep my mass as well, and be happy. 

 

This is over the edge for me where only 5% is carbs. Oats, some fruits with more is necessary. Haven't eat much processed food for 5 years at all.

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/keto-diet-meal-plan-and-menu#meal-plan

 

[robblok]

11 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I think it is in fact sustainable...for a lifetime, if you practice keto in real basic terms as it was really intended (and not the hyped up way many YouTube Keto Gurus would have you believe.

 

"Keto" really is nothing more than keeping carbs down enough so that fat adaptation occurs, and avoiding highly processed foods with lots of sugar.  That's really all there is to the concept of Keto.  Too many people think of Keto as a weight loss diet, that once they lose the weight, they can go back to eating anything they want, and that's a fallacy.

 

The fact is, the human body is designed (if you will) to be fueled BOTH by glucose and fat.  In today's world with all the highly processed foods that are rich in carbs, for many people their body has lost the ability to utilize stored fat optimally, and also their body is primed to be a fat storing system rather than a fat burning system.  Keto simply brings the body back to the way it was intended to be.

 

Once you let Keto make you fat adapted again, it's a healthy, sustainable, and highly satisfying way to eat.  That's my view of it anyway  ????

 

I hear you saying fat adapted a lot, yet the science in the vids i shown has shown no extra weight loss or fat loss from KETO. There have been some studies that show it but if you take all the studies then all of a sudden there are no benefits. So where is that fat adaptation and metabolic advantage?

 

I am not disputing that for a obese person cutting carbs will definitely help, and nobody who wants to lose weight and has half a brain would even consider processed foods as healthy in any diet. I mean i think we are all on one line about that.

 

I think the touted fat adaptation is a myth or at least for non obese people. Anyone who put some time in the gym skips processed foods and keeps his or her carbs within reasonable limits will burn fat. The science says as much.

 

The studies don't show a higher metabolic rate in keto / fat adapted people so what does it matter ? Again some studies do but meta-analyses of many studies combined don't show this. 

 

IMHO if you like me (and i know you do) workout in a gym and do some cardio too and skip the processed foods your body will definitely burn fat. Thankfully it does not only burn fat because then your weight lifting would suck (can't use fat for high explosive movements). The body will just switch to burn based on the activity you perform and in the end the calories matter.

 

I have a lot more faith in the trainers like the guy from Athlean X and Jeff Nippon and others who train athletes to look good then say a garry Taubes or (forgot the name of that liver DR) who both look like they are skinny fats. 

 

The thing is those Keto guros make money from their gimmick, while the professional trainers and dietists make money from their results. 

 

The carbs I eat (and I might even eat too little carbs now) are directly stored in my muscles as ATP ready to fuel a weight lifting session or when I have to sprint to avoid traffic when crossing the road ????. While my body will go to fat burning when i do cardio or other non intense things. Basically there are too many good things in carbs to ignore. No we don't need them but we do need the good stuff in fruits for instance (fruits are carbs)

 

Not all carbs are created equal and when you cut out the bad ones (processed food and sugar) your body will respond in better insulin sensitivity and better nutrient partitioning (as in putting the proteins into the muscles you damage during training).

 

Keto is just a bit too restrictive and yes it certainly works for obese people and couch potatoes. But after they lost weight they can go back to healthy carbs and live a normal life. 

 

I dont count calories (ok i have set meals as im OCD and like to be sure that what i eat does not vary so i can adjust)

 

The secret is not low carbs its high protein as protein helps you keep your muscles and as you yourself stated we need more protein when we are getting older. 

 

And for people thinking im a bodybuilder (maybe I am but a small one at that). I love lifting weights but that is just because it fits my body. I suck at many sports but not lifting. I do my cardio now (after neglecting it). 

 

I do believe that there are supplements that can help a bit to burn extra fat (once your diet and training are good) but the weight loss comes from a caloric deficit.  I also believe in reverse dieting (though i havent tried it yet)

 

To sum it up, remove sugar and processed foods and do some exercise and stay in a caloric deficit make sure you do some resistance training and cardio and with patience (something I do lack) you will see results.

[robblok]

I am for individual approaches, and starting off with KETO yes I think it will help if your out of shape and fat. After that you can introduce non processed carbs and go on losing fat. 

 

We are all so different in how we respond to food. I am an all or nothing kind of guy. I love syrup with soda (the soda bottles). However I can't stop with one glas, so for me its best not to take it. Other people can take one glas.

 

Its about finding something you can sustain (if that is KETO great), if its something else great. But you have to find your own weaknesses. You need to identify your own triggers. If you restrict too much its also hard for your social life. (as i live with just my gf im ok) But people like my SIL who has to cook for the family she can't just go keto or cut out too much as my brother and her daughter would rebel.

 

So some stuff might work for loners like me and @WaveHunter you but not for the general public.

 

The best food program is a food program you can do forever, and that is not always keto (for some it is power to them).

 

I used to count calories now I just find a few set meals and if i lose weight i know its working if not i change stuff. I have given up on thinking that I need a certain amount of calories or that it works always (as we get leaner we use less so we need to change) Plus there are differences  in how much people burn. But basically it comes down to what we eat.

 

I am training with a guy from Singapore (actually 2 of them). One is lean as hell (jeallous about it) but he has a hard time packing on more muscles (he wants that) He just forgets to eat has no appetite. The other guy is fat and can't seem to follow diet well. He thinks that he can out train a bad diet or wing it. He is doing OMAD and is taking winstrol.

 

The fun / strange thing is that the guy doing winstrol who is fat did not progress more then the lean guy in terms of muscle strength and size. Still mystified about that as he had never used a steroid before and he did put in great effort in his training. But my GF does the same bench press as him. I grant that his deadlifts went to 100kg for reps and my gf only came to 80kg for reps and the slim guy 90kg for reps. 

 

Basically his diet and sleeping sucked, I think a much overlooked thing is sleep (something i struggle with). 

 

I don't get any stronger, havent for years and won't no matter how much effort i put it. Maybe I could get stronger but i doubt my joints would like it much. I did like 170-180kg deadlifts for reps and now went to 150kg (probably could get back there but don't really see the point)

 

Ok im off to makro for some salad and other clean foods. I do believe that preparing your own food is key to losing weight. I got fat (what i consider fat) during last year. Why I was stressed, bought all the nice stuff available on grab (Bangkok has great foods much more so then where i lived before). I still did train but it was useless. My weight lifting belt went up 3 notches now it went down 2 already. Planning to go way past that this time. 

 

I think the main thing for me was stopping those sugary drinks and no longer ordering sweets. It took 3-4 weeks for cravings to go away. Now i don't have a problem with drinking plain water and soda (the bottles used with wiskey). 

 

GF gained weight too from drinking but she is a lucky girl and seems to shrink easy. She does not even have to restrict stuff just quit drinking. Life is not fair people are different and a one diet for all is crazy. If you have friends and a social life like my GF you can't just cut everything out (Singaporean are like Thai they order food together and share). So unless you want to become an outcast (i dont mind myself) Keto is quite hard if you have a nice social life.