1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The vaccines are not ‘experimental’.

 

Dreaming up possible long term effects without any basis to support their existence is ‘dreaming stuff up’.

 

The data is in, the vaccines are dramatically reducing infections, serious illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

 

The data is also coming in on the actual long term health impacts of COVID amongst those who survive infection.

 

Chicken Little’s research remains unpublished, reportedly having failed peer review.

 

 

As I asked, what are the long term effects then? You don’t know. That means it is experimental. You are part of an experiment. Vaxxed people clearly can’t be objective on this topic anyway. 

2 minutes ago, sucit said:

As I asked, what are the long term effects then? You don’t know. That means it is experimental. You are part of an experiment. Vaxxed people clearly can’t be objective on this topic anyway. 

Then go get the Sinovac or Sinopharm and quit the Chicken Little nonsense.

2 minutes ago, sucit said:

As I asked, what are the long term effects then? You don’t know. That means it is experimental. You are part of an experiment. Vaxxed people clearly can’t be objective on this topic anyway. 

It means nothing of the kind. Classic non sequiter. CV vaccines use several different technologies, ALL of which have been thoroughly tested.

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It means nothing of the kind. Classic non sequiter. CV vaccines use several different technologies, ALL of which have been thoroughly tested.

So you’re saying the Covid vaccines have been thoroughly tested. Ok, you’re wrong, but ok.

 

Even if you were right, important questions pop up. Why don’t the companies who make the vaccines take responsibility for I’ll effects then as we see with all other drugs and medications? Oh, you have no answer? Experimental. Deal with it, it’s just a word, seriously. Deal… everyone hopes it’s fine but don’t be a pleb and deny things that are true. 

1 minute ago, sucit said:

So you’re saying the Covid vaccines have been thoroughly tested. Ok, you’re wrong, but ok.

 

Even if you were right, important questions pop up. Why don’t the companies who make the vaccines take responsibility for I’ll effects then as we see with all other drugs and medications? Oh, you have no answer? Experimental. Deal with it, it’s just a word, seriously. Deal… everyone hopes it’s fine but don’t be a pleb and deny things that are true. 

As if to underscore the observations I made in my opening post you trot out the same pre-canned misinformation and conspiracy nonsense that can be got almost verbatim from any other traveler in the anti-vax caravan.

 

The vaccines are not experimental - Quit spreading misinformation.

 

 

Something always has to give. You can deny things all you want, that’s fine, but then there is the truth.

 

The vaccine follows a completely different paradigm to all other commonly used vaccines. I’m not sure if people deny this or not, hard to know what simple facts people will deny nowadays. It was tested for far less time and much less rigorously, and under ENORMOUS pressure. 
 

The vaccine does not follow the same legal regiment as far as legal consumer recourse. Why is that (crickets, notice nobody answers this if you are here actually trying to get informed information). 
 

You don’t get to have it both ways. How can the vaccine be like other vaccines, tested and proven, and yet the above two criteria are true? The answer is, you’re in denial. And what do people in denial usually do? They laugh, and they are dismissive lol

 

I don’t think it’s a big deal. I hope everyone is fine, I hope the vaccine is 100% effective. All of it. I just think humans should be honest with themselves. If the gun has obviously been jumped for various reasons, just admit it. Decisions thereafter this realization (like whether to vaccinate kids or not) will be easier to make, and the decisions will be better informed and less biased and emotional. 

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As if to underscore the observations I made in my opening post you trot out the same pre-canned misinformation and conspiracy nonsense that can be got almost verbatim from any other traveler in the anti-vax caravan.

 

The vaccines are not experimental - Quit spreading misinformation.

 

 

Your lack of answers to what should be very easy questions literallyproves you wrong. 

1 minute ago, sucit said:

Your lack of answers to what should be very easy questions literallyproves you wrong. 

1. The vaccines have undergone the full approvals process, they are not experimental.

 

2. The granting of immunity from liability was a political decision made at a time when Pharmaceutical companies had the upper hand.

 

3. Someone on the internet telling you to worry about long term effects for which there is zero evidence and then you ranting about it in this forum is a demonstration of precisely what this thread is about.

 

You are spreading misinformation and conspiracy nonsense.

 

Man example of exactly what this thread discusses.

I wonder if you guys can list off all of the other mRNA vaccines that are in heavy use, after an extremely pressure filled release. 
 

I wonder why countries had to announce “emergency approvals” of these vaccines.
 

So many questions, so few answers… but then again, the real answers lie within the lack of answers. We have a guy here talking about misinformation, yet he can’t answer the simplest of questions as to why HIS postings are not misinformation. 

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

1. The vaccines have undergone the full approvals process, they are not experimental.

 

2. The granting of immunity from liability was a political decision made at a time when Pharmaceutical companies had the upper hand.

 

3. Someone on the internet telling you to worry about long term effects for which there is zero evidence and then you ranting about it in this forum is a demonstration of precisely what this thread is about.

 

You are spreading misinformation and conspiracy nonsense.

 

Man example of exactly what this thread discusses.

You’re in denial. As I laid out, this vaccine has followed a completely different paradigm in terms of timing, testing, emergency approval (which we NEVER see), trials and legal recourse. Why is that? Why is it so different? 
 

You simply cannot see you want to have it both ways because you are biased and in denial. Fine with me. Just accept the truth though. What you’re doing now is believing pharma and govt officials like fascism, and you think you’re getting the “informed opinion” from them lol

Edited October 4, 20214 yr by sucit

22 minutes ago, sucit said:

So you’re saying the Covid vaccines have been thoroughly tested. Ok, you’re wrong, but ok.

 

You keep saying this without any specifics, and despite statements like this being debunked constantly. 

 

But I'll give you benefit of the doubt, please let us know the specific deficiencies you have identified in the data packages for these vaccines.  

2 minutes ago, sucit said:

I wonder if you guys can list off all of the other mRNA vaccines that are in heavy use, after an extremely pressure filled release. 
 

I wonder why countries had to announce “emergency approvals” of these vaccines.
 

So many questions, so few answers… but then again, the real answers lie within the lack of answers. We have a guy here talking about misinformation, yet he can’t answer the simplest of questions as to why HIS postings are not misinformation. 

Nobody owes you a list of mRNA vaccines or for that matter any other list.

 

The vaccines are tested and fully approved.

 

Not all questions have or deserve an answer, some are dumb senseless questions, some are disingenuous Hogwash.

1 minute ago, sucit said:

What is happening here is I am asking questions of an unproven vaccine(s), and getting no answers. Which speaks volumes. There are no answers. 
 

You keep calling the vaccines experimental (over and over again) despite full FDA approval, and saying something was wrong in the development, but refuse to identify any specific deficiencies in the data packages.  Obviously you lose credibility when saying things that are demonstrably false and unable to articulate the specific inadequacies with the data/studies.

 

Full approval:  https://www.fda.gov/media/151707/download

 

suchit: “ the long term effects of covid vax” are almost certainly NONE ……

or about the same odds as finding the flying spaghetti monster orbiting Pluto or that God has a white beard. trialling vax for 15 years like in 1960’s is simply not required any more due to current medical / IT tech…….the knowledge we DO have already indicates NO long term risk….whereas risk of dying unvaxxed is relatively HIGH….. a “ no brainer” decision to vax isnt it ?

7 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

suchit: “ the long term effects of covid vax” are almost certainly NONE ……

or about the same odds as finding the flying spaghetti monster orbiting Pluto or that God has a white beard. trialling vax for 15 years like in 1960’s is simply not required any more due to current medical / IT tech…….the knowledge we DO have already indicates NO long term risk….whereas risk of dying unvaxxed is relatively HIGH….. a “ no brainer” decision to vax isnt it ?

The sad is that the science has nothing to do with their attitude, it's all politics.

 

The good is that we aren't likely to see them around Thailand for a while since many airlines are requiring vaccinations to fly and governments are placing onerous limitations on the un-vacinnated.

Edited October 4, 20214 yr by ozimoron

1 hour ago, sucit said:

Your lack of answers to what should be very easy questions literallyproves you wrong. 

where's your evidence? Unless you can provide research or data supporting your contentions you are just spreading dangerous misinformation. You are totally uninformed, just conjecture.

Edited October 4, 20214 yr by ozimoron

1 hour ago, sucit said:

The vaccine follows a completely different paradigm to all other commonly used vaccines. I’m not sure if people deny this or not, hard to know what simple facts people will deny nowadays. It was tested for far less time and much less rigorously, and under ENORMOUS pressure. 

What do you truly know about the process of testing vaccines? Do you know how many stages the testing process has and why? Do you know how many people were involved in each stage? Have you looked at the results? Have you carried out a detailed comparison with vaccines developed previously? 

 

almost certainly not, you are just repeating buzzwords that you’ve heard.

 

the word ‘experimental’ is utterly meaningless in the way you use it. 
 

 

Regarding information believed, who can reliably say that they are definitely not suffering from cognitive dissonance. Further, is claiming not to be cognitively dissonant the most obvious display of the condition itself or not?  I'll leave that for those who consider themselves cognitively non-dissonant to ponder in a cognitively dissonant manner, or not, as the case may be.

 

The mania and hysteria (using the classic and literal meaning of the words) surrounding Sars-cov-2 seems to have rendered observable reality largely irrelevant, and replaced that observable reality with what appears to be two indefensible ideological positions - that is, indefensible as viewed by those with the opposing ideology.

 

I find philosophy in its various forms more satisfying than any ideology as it forces one to dig deep into the pathology of an idea and those promoting or opposing the idea.  Philosophical conversation usually leads to a "truth", where as defending  an ideological position relies on having the loudest voice or the biggest mob behind you.

 

My personal philosophical position is that mankind is inherently evil, and any individual should be trusted about as much as I would trust a rabid mongrel until they prove themselves to my sole satisfaction not to be so. I'm not suggesting anybody should share my philosophy, in the same way that I should not be expected to adopt anybody's ideology or philosophical viewpoint without examining its pathology.

 

The list of people I would trust my life with consists of me alone. Anybody who claims to value my life more than me or wants to exert power over me because of their Ideology is blatantly evil.

 

For that reason alone, and irrespective of your thoughts or ideological position on Sars-cov-2 and information/misinformation surrounding it, both the tyranny and compassion currently being exerted in all its forms by individuals, journalists, scientists, politicians (and your neighbor) should be examined with the same skepticism you would afford a rabid mongrel.  

 

I'm now off to consider the question: Is tyranny imposed in the name of compassion a preferred option to simple evil tyranny?  Oedipus, Pavlov, Orwell, Rand, Socrates, Huxley, Bradbury, Locke et al immediately come to mind. 

 

Philosophically speaking, that's my afternoon shagged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 20214 yr by Gsxrnz

10 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

No. The vaccines are safe, that's been proven. Sad some argue this.

no it hasn't been proven long term. Get a grip. Yes it's a success short term, but other vaccines have had short term success, only to have long term negative effects.

 

That said, with Covid, we will need to take that risk.

10 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

BS. Scientists do know . To say most research is proven wrong is just trolling. Please.stop.

it's not trolling when your arguments are not valid, and you deny the true fundamentals of science. It's the process of being wrong to find the truth. Maybe you should hang around more scientists to get a clue ????

 

 

12 hours ago, shdmn said:

Again, in your opinion.  Scientists know.  I know.   Instead of "we" you should be saying "I don't really know".

 

Anyways, looks to me like you are just concern trolling at this point so I won't waste my time respond again to your anti-vaxx nonsense.  I certainly have no problem saying that word.

you are being very naive and binary, and having arguments that do not agree with your non-sense is not trolling.

 

Or I could call you on your BS trolling for not understand on purpose what I am saying ????

 

52 minutes ago, Gsxrnz said:

Regarding information believed, who can reliably say that they are definitely not suffering from cognitive dissonance. Further, is claiming not to be cognitively dissonant the most obvious display of the condition itself or not?  I'll leave that for those who consider themselves cognitively non-dissonant to ponder in a cognitively dissonant manner, or not, as the case may be.

 

The mania and hysteria (using the classic and literal meaning of the words) surrounding Sars-cov-2 seems to have rendered observable reality largely irrelevant, and replaced that observable reality with what appears to be two indefensible ideological positions - that is, indefensible as viewed by those with the opposing ideology.

 

I find philosophy in its various forms more satisfying than any ideology as it forces one to dig deep into the pathology of an idea and those promoting or opposing the idea.  Philosophical conversation usually leads to a "truth", where as defending  an ideological position relies on having the loudest voice or the biggest mob behind you.

 

My personal philosophical position is that mankind is inherently evil, and any individual should be trusted about as much as I would trust a rabid mongrel until they prove themselves to my sole satisfaction not to be so. I'm not suggesting anybody should share my philosophy, in the same way that I should not be expected to adopt anybody's ideology or philosophical viewpoint without examining its pathology.

 

The list of people I would trust my life with consists of me alone. Anybody who claims to value my life more than me or wants to exert power over me because of their Ideology is blatantly evil.

 

For that reason alone, and irrespective of your thoughts or ideological position on Sars-cov-2 and information/misinformation surrounding it, both the tyranny and compassion currently being exerted in all its forms by individuals, journalists, scientists, politicians (and your neighbor) should be examined with the same skepticism you would afford a rabid mongrel.  

 

I'm now off to consider the question: Is tyranny imposed in the name of compassion a preferred option to simple evil tyranny?  Oedipus, Pavlov, Orwell, Rand, Socrates, Huxley, Bradbury, Locke et al immediately come to mind. 

 

Philosophically speaking, that's my afternoon shagged.

 

 

This has nothing to do with ‘Cognitive Dissonance’, please review your understanding of the term.

 

Media hysteria, over a disease that despite widespread public health measures has killed over 4,500,000, you perhaps need to review your understanding of ‘hysteria’.

 

Your personal trust issues are noted, but how they relate to science, data and fact is a mystery.

 

I doubt very much that you examine even  a tiny fraction of the science that impacts all aspects of your life.

 

Flowery as your contribution is it amounts to the self same ‘both-side-ism’ that permeates much of anti-vax thinking.

 

Misinformation/disinformation and the propaganda efforts to spread the two are not the same thing as science based medicine.

 

They are not deserving of equal treatment and they are being used to cause harm and tragically drive up the death count from this wretched disease.

11 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

no it hasn't been proven long term. Get a grip. Yes it's a success short term, but other vaccines have had short term success, only to have long term negative effects.

 

That said, with Covid, we will need to take that risk.

Again dreamt up long term effects.

 

Meanwhile, death from COVID is a long term effect and long term health impacts of this wretched disease are happening now - happing in real life not in some misinformation social media source.

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Again dreamt up long term effects.

 

oh absolutely brilliant, you can read the future now ????

 

maybe a side effect of being vaccinated ????

 

this is exactly what's wrong with scared pro-vaxx promoters, they think they know, but they have no clue, like the anti-vaxx

 

they are the 2 faces of the same coin, ignorance ????

 

anti-vaxx have the rights to choose, and if they choose not to vaccinate, whatever the reasons, we have to respect that, wrong or not.

 

7 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

anti-vaxx have the rights to choose, and if they choose not to vaccinate, whatever the reasons, we have to respect that, wrong or not.

No we don't, we are free to vilify them for endangering others.  Your stance is that stuff is wrong until proven right is just indefensible.

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

No we don't, we are free to vilify them for endangering others.  Your stance is that stuff is wrong until proven right is just indefensible.

thank god you are not in charge then ????

15 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

oh absolutely brilliant, you can read the future now ????

 

maybe a side effect of being vaccinated ????

 

this is exactly what's wrong with scared pro-vaxx promoters, they think they know, but they have no clue, like the anti-vaxx

 

they are the 2 faces of the same coin, ignorance ????

 

anti-vaxx have the rights to choose, and if they choose not to vaccinate, whatever the reasons, we have to respect that, wrong or not.

 

The topic is not ‘the right to choose’, though you might want to consider the part misinformation plays in making the wrong choice.

 

 

35 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

it's not trolling when your arguments are not valid, and you deny the true fundamentals of science. It's the process of being wrong to find the truth. Maybe you should hang around more scientists to get a clue ????

 

 

So given your superior scientific knowledge, and since we don't have a clue, why don't you edify us with some specifics (eg, data) to support your various vague and questionable claims?  

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The topic is not ‘the right to choose’, though you might want to consider the part misinformation plays in making the wrong choice.

 

 

again you are missing the point, science never has a definite answer, what we know today about COVID will be put upside down in the next 10 years, that's close to 99% sure

 

we don't know the long term effects of vaccination, period, whether you like it or not.

 

Even the labs know that and will tell you so. Is there a long term risk, yes there is. That's undeniable fact, vaccinated or not. And you can bet that "big pharma" has put that long term effect provision in their contracts when they sold their doses to the EU and the US.

Edited October 4, 20214 yr by GrandPapillon

1 minute ago, Someone Else said:

So given your superior scientific knowledge, and since we don't have a clue, why don't you edify us with some specifics (eg, data) to support your various vague and questionable claims?  

they are not vague, they are definitive, you know "sh*t" today, and like everyone else, you will need to wait for science new research for the next 10 years to get some clue. Be patient ????