THE WEEK THAT WAS “My Home is My Castle” - but killing intruders can lead to jail

[rooster59]

 

The question of the precise extent of the rights of a householder to protect themselves from an intruder in their home was the talk online in Thailand this week and ASEAN NOW was no exception. 

 

The chatter followed the death of a Thai man last weekend at the hands of a 63 year old Swiss pensioner and former architect in Udon Thani. According to press reports the Thai, aged 53, had a gun but was disarmed. A fight resulted in his death after suffering head injuries in a rear kitchen.

 

The police said they would be fair but indicated that the foreigner would face charges. Lurid details followed suggesting the Thai wife of the Swiss man had had a long running affair with the deceased. Relatives dismissed the idea he was robbing the foreigner and there are questions surrounding 300,000 baht he had in his possession from a land sale. The money is missing. 

 

There may be a great deal more to the case than meets the eye. Rooster’s own attempts to get a handle on the case were thwarted by a stone wall going up. I suspect the couple decided to avoid any press contact no matter how the approach was presented. Suspicious, perhaps, but proof of nothing. 

 

But at the center of such events is always the idea of the sanctity of someone’s home. English people grow up with the idea that an “Englishman’s home is his castle” a tenet enshrined in English common law in the 1700s.

 

In the United States this has morphed into what is known as the “Castle Doctrine” and a related issue known as “stand your ground”.

 

Different states have slightly different interpretations of the law but there is one overriding word that judges and juries use in both countries and other jurisdictions to describe what force can be used against an intruder.

 

It must be “reasonable”.

 

A sensational case in England in 1999 involved a Norfolk farmer called Tony Martin who garnered much public sympathy after he shot and killed a 16 year old Irish traveller at his ramshackle farm.

 

Martin claimed he had been robbed multiple times and was only protecting himself. But the evidence showed that Martin had shot at the boy and an older accomplice as they fled.

 

In his excellent book on the subject former bank robber John McVicar was fair but had little sympathy for Martin who he showed had laid in wait in his home armed with an illegal shotgun.

 

The jury at his first trial agreed and found him guilty of murder and he was jailed for life. A subsequent appeal reduced the conviction to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and Martin ultimately served just three years. 

 

In the States in Colorado in 1985 they established a “make my day law” (part of Dirty Harry’s famous line) that came down heavily on the side of homeowners.

 

California law permits the use of “deadly force” in specified circumstances. There “your home is your castle” but only inside it. If a person is outside your property you would risk prosecution or lawsuits for attacking them. 

 

In Michigan you can kill an intruder but, again, only when certain criteria are met; for example you can use lethal force but not to protect property, only yourself. And only then when in danger of “serious bodily injury, sexual assault or death”. Again this is only inside your home.

 

Not surprisingly, Texas has some of the strictest laws but reasonable force is still key when there is an “unlawful attempt to enter your (home), vehicle or work-place”. You must not be shown to be the aggressor. 

 

In Australia a law introduced in 2003 had the phrase “whatever force they deem necessary” as a measure of what was acceptable though several key lawyers and prosecutors expressed concern at the time.

 

Other countries the world over try to grapple with the issue and Thailand is no different. 

 

The last time a case caused a big public outcry was in December 2018 when a man came home to his Ngam Wong Wan Soi 18 house in  Nonthaburi to find an intruder in his bed!

 

The man awoke and went for a machete that was by the bed and attempted to flee the house. The owner got him in a headlock and killed him. Police and lawyers described the Thai law as complex. 

 

One Thai legal expert stated at the time that according to Thai law it was okay to shoot a man who you found in bed with your wife as you were deemed to be “protecting your property!”

 

However, if the man got away and was fleeing on a motorcycle when you shot him dead that would be murder. 

 

The Udon case - with all its side issues - will be something for the police and prosecutors to decide what charges the Swiss man will face. And then it’ll be for the Udon court to decide whether he is guilty and what mitigating circumstances there are.

 

Much will depend on what is deemed to be in the mind of both the intruder and the homeowner at the time of the incident.

 

Like many, Rooster suspected from the outset that Sathian - described as a playboy - was going to the house to sleep with the Swiss man’s wife after she called him. Claims that she only knew him casually were dismissed by many people separately. 

 

Rudolf the pensioner would still see him as an intruder but he may have known him that further muddies the waters. The gun was found in a pond after Rudolf jettisoned it before he continued to fight with Sathian.

 

If it is proven to be a case of an intruder defending himself, Rooster could see a suspended sentence. A man, after all, has been killed. I don’t believe the cacophony of babble from the usual xenophobes that Rudolf will be dealt with any differently from a Thai in the same position. 

 

For what it's worth the Swiss man was being widely supported by Thais on social media, mindful of a victim of marital infidelity as much as a householder protecting himself. 

 

The foreigner mostly in the news from the previous week, Robert Gordon, 37, from Colorado, who allegedly raped a masseuse and molested a minor selling honey by the side of the road became yesterday’s news. Hopefully ASEAN NOW will follow up when the case comes to court. 

 

Also soon to be in court are a northern Thai couple who “offended public morals” by bonking up against a sacred giant rubber tree on the old Chiang Mai to Lamphun Road. Then having the temerity to post the video on OnlyFans.

 

The case was very Thai not just because it featured that two-faced indignation about sex but because of the sacredness of the trees. Ten blew down in a subsequent storm - as trees do - which inspired the “Lanna loonies” to say that it was the irreligious rogering that caused them to topple!

 

Now I know why the 1987 hurricane in southern England blew down so many trees in the woods behind the house where I was born….

 

The Thai couple were soon arrested in Phrae and will doubtless get a sentence commensurate with the importance of the tree.

 

In tourism matters the biggest news of the week was Thailand finally being taken off the “red list” of UK countries. I keep promising to take my young kids for a first visit but now the main hurdles have been removed, I'm starting to dread the prospect of applying for passports and air travel.

 

I haven’t been on a plane for three years and I’d like to keep it that way!

 

The UK has also recognised that two doses of AstraZeneca are fine by them (at last) and my second jab is due next Sunday at Bang Sue. Vaccination continued apace this week with upwards of 400,000 getting jabbed with first and second shots each day. 

 

All this prompted a weaselly registrar of the Bhumjaithai party to praise health minister and party boss Anutin Charnvirakul for getting Thailand removed from the UK’s red list.

 

He was pictured with UK ambassador Mark Gooding in Daily News in September when it was said how he had pleaded Thailand’s case. 

 

Sucking up to Anutin really took the biscuit as he has presided over some of the biggest failures in Thailand’s modern history, in cahoots with Prayut and Prawit. 

 

Their and the TAT’s Phuket sandbox was blasted in a Thai press report from restaurateurs, pub and bar owners and people who run small hotels. None of the Sandbox money or custom - as little as it is - had reached down to them. 

 

Of course most of the “tourists” were nothing of the sort. They were people trying to get back into Thailand, sitting out two weeks confinement in cut-price fancy hotels before getting back to girlfriends, spouses and families. 

 

One of my best friends who returned to the US with his child then did the Sandbox on return said he spent as much on Covid tests as air tickets; that was the real financial killer. 

 

Khun Ying Sudarat - who now fronts the Thai Sang Thai political party, belted off to Phuket as soon as she returned from the States. She was gushing about “free vaccines” and the ease of doing everything Stateside. 

 

This she used as political leverage to slam the Sandbox. She wanted tests and insurance to be provided free for foreigners in the New Year, a cutting down on the red tape and in the longer term a creation of a Phuket economic tourism zone. She also wants to see digital nomads using Phuket as a work base. 

 

She is a popular and more practical kind of Thai leader but whether the dinosaurs in Prayut’s government give her any credence remains to be seen. They seem totally incapable of listening to anybody.

 

I suspect they will also not be listening to one of their own cabinet. That is Chaiwut, the Digital Economy and Society minister, who proposed legalizing e-cigarettes. He made some valid points about them being less harmful and helpful for weaning people off regular coffin nails but it’ll come to nothing as this would upset the apple cart that is the close relationship between politicians, the excise department and the Thailand Tobacco Monopoly.

 

The TTM (never was an organization better named) claimed that the reason there are no cigarettes in the shops at the moment was because a machine broke down and they gave their staff a few weeks off during repairs.

 

Do they truly expect us to swallow that? The excise department were a tad more upfront in putting the blame on profiteers hoarding cigarettes ahead of the tax increases that will take effect at the end of the coming week.

 

Rivalling the red list and Phuket stories for forum clicks was news that Pipat at Tourism and Sports was introducing a 500 baht tourism fee. 

 

Predictable outrage followed but 300 baht had already been agreed ages ago and such charges are standard practice throughout the world, usually incorporated into airfares. 

 

No one is going to be collecting fifteen bucks at Swampy, Thais like most governments are a little more subtle than that unless you’re visiting a national park, that is.  

 

Several decades ago Thais used to have to pay 1,000 baht at the airport when leaving the country then a standard departure tax of 500 baht was levied. 

 

The “entry fee” is nothing to get hot under the collar about though I’d prefer only tourists to be paying it and like many, wonder into whose pockets the cash will flow. 

 

Pipat - like his dear wife a billionaire - showed wonderful mental arithmetic in one Thai press report saying that one million people paying 500 baht each meant 500 million baht. 

 

Now I know why I'm not a billionaire or a minister.

 

Finally, and of particular interest to an Asia based wordsmith like Rooster, was the news that 26 Korean words would be added to the latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, the “accepted authority on the English language” according to the BBC.

 

The move is an indication of the wave of interest in South Korea created by K-pop phenomenon BTS and shows like Squid Game that are extremely popular on Netflix. 

 

I’m a bit old for BTS but I enjoyed Squid Game (watching it twice!) as I thought the characterization was spot on.

 

Many of the new words are food like banchan, bulgogi and kimbap - great for high scoring Scrabble plays. 

 

My two favorites though were “hallyu” a word that refers to the increase in international interest in South Korea and “mukbang”.

 

Mukbang means a live streamed video of someone eating a large quantity of food.

 

At last something Rooster could do to make up for those six dreadful hours of outage when Facebook went off worldwide.

 

And we were unable to post pictures of our dinner.

 

Rooster

 

 

-- © Copyright  ASEAN NOW 2021-10-10

 

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[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

The question of the precise extent of the rights of a householder to protect themselves from an intruder

It would depend on the nationality of the householder.

And if the intruder was banging the householders wife.

Edited October 10, 2021 by BritManToo

[bobandyson]

28 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

English people grow up with the idea that an “Englishman’s home is his castle” a tenet enshrined in English common law in the 1700s.

Here it's "An Englishman's home is his Thai wife's castle".

[ThailandRyan]

Rather be taken to trial then taken to the crematorium if some thug entered my home and tried to kill me before I succesfully defended myself and he or she ended up facing their maker either in hell or at the pearly gates.

[ezzra]

Unlike in the US where almost everyone is packing and shooting an intruder is legal in many states, here in Thailand a foreigner having a gun AND shooting a local, be it an intruder or not, is a big deal, wouldn't wanna be in his shoes right now big headaches and lot of express to defend himself, hopefully cool heads will prevail and the case will be settled according to the local laws and the circumstances...

[HeijoshinCool]

Ingredients required:

 

One shovel with two meter handle;

One pick axe for hard ground;

Rake;

Grass seed;

1 bag of lime, two for fat guys;

1 asp or black jack

Bleach

1 TV

 

Recipe:

 

Did hole well in advance and let sit until needed;

Upon encountering assailant, hit over head multiple times until dead;

Dump body in hole and cover with lime and dirt, wet soil and lime with garden hose;

Rake over and seed. Do not call police. Use bleach to clean up.

Go back to TV show.

 

[smedly]

the critical facts are quite simple

 

was the Swiss man defending himself against this armed intruder at his home - seems he was

 

once the intruder was disarmed and disabled did the Swiss man then proceed to kill him - seems he didn't, he tied him up.

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by smedly

[smedly]

22 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Unlike in the US where almost everyone is packing and shooting an intruder is legal in many states, here in Thailand a foreigner having a gun AND shooting a local, be it an intruder or not, is a big deal, wouldn't wanna be in his shoes right now big headaches and lot of express to defend himself, hopefully cool heads will prevail and the case will be settled according to the local laws and the circumstances...

what has any of that got to do with this case - the foreigner didn't have a gun and didn't shoot anyone, in fact it was quite the opposite 

[bristolgeoff]

It is cruel if he is put inside,he was defending his home from a intruder.What happens if it was a thai doing the same.In amercia you are ok in your house.Have to wait and see the end result

[klauskunkel]

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

However, if the man got away and was fleeing on a motorcycle when you shot him dead that would be murder. 

Except of course if you are a police officer, then you get a commendation.

[tingtongfarang]

1 minute ago, smedly said:

what has any of that got to do with this case - the foreigner didn't have a gun and didn't shoot anyone, in fact it was quite the opposite 

 

30 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Rather be taken to trial then taken to the crematorium if some thug entered my home and tried to kill me before I succesfully defended myself and he or she ended up facing their maker either in hell or at the pearly gates.

i have a dog who would in this case protect me and his property, if an intruder would get past the dog then they meet me with a number 7 golf bat

[Doctor Tom]

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

English people grow up with the idea that an “Englishman’s home is his castle” a tenet enshrined in English common law in the 1700s.

There have been many cases over the years of UK home owners being charged with manslaughter, or even none pre meditated murder,  after killing an intruder.  The lack of application of minimum force is usually the reason given, in that the owner used excessive force to protect him/her self.  Its never as simple as it appears. I understand that it is far more clear cut in the US, but I dont know that for sure. It appears on the face of it that the Thai Police are acting correctly in the case of the Swiss man, so far. 

[BE88]

"""One Thai legal expert stated at the time that according to Thai law it was okay to shoot a man who you found in bed with your wife as you were deemed to be “protecting your property!”"""

 

Interesting this sentence of the Thais law, I would advise the Swiss to change his version (it is always possible with the previous versions they were all to protect his honor) he attacked the intruder without wanting to kill him which was to protect his property.

(The wife's first version coincides with her statement that she was in bed sleeping.)

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by BE88

[vandeventer]

21 minutes ago, smedly said:

what has any of that got to do with this case - the foreigner didn't have a gun and didn't shoot anyone, in fact it was quite the opposite 

Don't you know Foreigners are always in the the sh-- whether we do things right to protect others or not. . That's why so many are dyeing to get here to build Condo's. Ain't life a kick in the pants.

[BangkokReady]

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

there are questions surrounding 300,000 baht he had in his possession from a land sale. The money is missing. 

Surely claimed to be in his possession?

 

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

I suspect the couple decided to avoid any press contact no matter how the approach was presented. Suspicious, perhaps, but proof of nothing. 

Man accused of killing someone not wanting to speak to the press is suspicious?

[Kildonan]

Good humoured report of the last weeks events. A new "That was the week that was"? 

[ThailandRyan]

Just now, BangkokReady said:

Surely claimed to be in his possession?

 

Man accused of killing someone not wanting to speak to the press is suspicious?

So the deceased was supposedly carrying 300k the in his pocket. Must have been to show he had money to take the wife away from the husband....I think not...

[RafPinto]

1 hour ago, bobandyson said:

Here it's "An Englishman's home is his Thai wife's castle".

You mean: An Englishman's money and the Thai's castle.

[RafPinto]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

So the deceased was supposedly carrying 300k the in his pocket. Must have been to show he had money to take the wife away from the husband....I think not...

Reverse sinsod.

[chilli42]

Hold on. I can tell you the Swiss gentleman would be up on charges in many countries (regardless of what I might see as a resealable self defense response). That does not mean he would end up in jail but the onus would be on him/his lawyer to demonstrate that it was not murder/man slaughter.  When another life is ended there needs to be due diligence to assure it was necessary self defense.  This is not up to the police, it’s up to the courts.  

[bunnydrops]

The wife was out, the wife's boyfriend finds that his 300000 is gone after being with her, he doesn't climb a wall but came to the front door wanting his money back. I find it funny that everyone is swallowing this one sided story told by the only one standing,

[StevieAus]

The problem with this “using reasonable force” argument and there was similar public outrage in Australian many years ago, after a publican was charged after killing someone breaking into his premises during the night, is that it’s ok to be wise after the event.

Its ok in the cool of the day, discussing it at the police station or court room after the event, but when you are awoken by an intruder in your bedroom where it’s dark, how do you known what weapon they may have and therefore what reasonable force to use ?

Of course if you are killed it all becomes irrelevant anyway, for you that is.

[Guderian]

Some years ago I was friendly with an English guy who owned a number of successful large Gogo bars in both Pattaya and Bangkok. He told me that he was renting a house off Thappraya Road while in Pattaya for business, and had noticed a young Thai guy snooping around the place a few times. Of course, as a bar owner he pays a large sum of money to the various local law enforcement forces, so he had a word with his number one cop mate who was a sergeant in the Pattaya Soi 9 station. I think he was told something like, “Don’t worry, leave it to me.”

 

Sometime in the next day or two he was told by his sergeant mate that the young Thai guy had been shot dead, the problem (if there had ever really been one) was over. He was aghast, he’d only meant for the cops to scare the guy off, but instead they’d assassinated him. I guess the cops felt they were simply protecting a large source of income, and of course there was never an inquiry or hearing into the death. As always in Thailand, it seems, money rules.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Guderian

[sammieuk1]

As someone who spent 15 months in a UK HMP first offence for unlawfully wounding an intruder in my house I hate this subject decades on????

[Artben]

That's the big advantage of being the last one standing.

[Rampant Rabbit]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

Rather be taken to trial then taken to the crematorium if some thug entered my home and tried to kill me before I succesfully defended myself and he or she ended up facing their maker either in hell or at the pearly gates.

yeah its always great when the intruder gets  killed and people whinge that he was  killed, greeted with someone in my house  I would  hold  back nothing, in the dark late at night who the hell  knwos what they have got as a weapon or  not, I mean  what are you  supposed to do give  polite  excuse me are you packing

[david555]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

Unlike in the US where almost everyone is packing and shooting an intruder is legal in many states, here in Thailand a foreigner having a gun AND shooting a local, be it an intruder or not, is a big deal, wouldn't wanna be in his shoes right now big headaches and lot of express to defend himself, hopefully cool heads will prevail and the case will be settled according to the local laws and the circumstances...

..."here in Thailand a foreigner having a gun "....

 

 

So.... better use that very legal meat cleaver ....???? (tongue in cheek said ..)

Edited October 10, 2021 by david555

[Asquith Production]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

the critical facts are quite simple

 

was the Swiss man defending himself against this armed intruder at his home - seems he was

 

once the intruder was disarmed and disabled did the Swiss man then proceed to kill him - seems he didn't, he tied him up.

 

 

 

It would be very difficult to tie someone up unless they were unconscious.

[TheFishman1]

The facts are very simple the time Man and heard the foreigners house with a gun thank God the foreign guy got the gun away he tied them up and called the police in my book for foreign guys a hero TIT

[smedly]

2 minutes ago, Asquith Production said:

It would be very difficult to tie someone up unless they were unconscious.

so what