Germany’s Fourth Covid Wave: ‘A Pandemic of the Unvaccinated’

[Jeffr2]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/11/world/europe/germany-covid-unvaccinated.html

 

Germany’s Fourth Covid Wave: ‘A Pandemic of the Unvaccinated’

Germany once set an example for how to manage the coronavirus. Now, deep pockets of vaccine resistance are helping drive daily infections to new heights.

 

The University Hospital of Giessen, one of Germany’s foremost clinics for pulmonary disease, is at capacity. The number of Covid-19 patients has tripled in recent weeks. Nearly half of them are on ventilators.

 

And every single one is unvaccinated.

 

“I ask every patient: Why didn’t you get vaccinated?” said Dr. Susanne Herold, head of infectious diseases, after her daily round on the ward on Thursday. “It’s a mix of people who distrust the vaccine, distrust the state and are often difficult to reach by public information campaigns.”

[G Rex]

Risk management?  People can choose protection or continue to fear the perceived danger of the treatment.

To me , the choice is obvious.

These results might get a few more people to take notice.

Let Darwin clean out a few more. 

[blackprince]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Even right wing newspapers in the UK like the Telegraph reported 18 months ago (as soon as stats were available) that the issue is not only the death rate, but also the long covid rate (or what came later to be recognised as long covid). The NHS found that c 50% of patients discharged from hospital needed ongoing care and many continued to experience serious debilitaing effects even after they were no longer virus positive (ie long covid). Other research found that 50% of all cases result in long covid, I linked to that research a few days ago.

 

I note that in Austria this week it has been decided to lockdown people who have not been vaccinated. An unusual response admittedly!

 

One alternative approach in hindsight in the UK would have been to lockdown everyone over 60 and refuse to provide NHS services for people who decline to observe simple hygiene like masks and distancing. But I doubt even the Telegraph would have gone for that, especially as their base, like Johnson's, is heavily skewed towards the elderly who missed out on education!

 

Do you really believe covid is an "experimental emergency" ? That is QAnon territory.

 

 

[blackprince]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Not wishing to be disputatious, but the vaccines are not for "experimental" use, and no authority has ever claimed they are. And you need to familiarise yourself with what "emergency" use actually means regarding vaccines.

 

I assume by IFR, you mean the fatality rate (ie mortality/death rate). As I've pointed out even the right wing Telegraph acknowledges that the fatality rate is not the only issue, it's also the long covid rate (very high as indicated), and even more importantly the overloading of the NHS which you may remember was even Johnson's rallying cry last year.

 

I'll also add that prior to the vaccine rollout in the UK, Johnson's bungled response resulted in the UK achieveing the 3rd worst covid fatalities per 100,000 population in the world, as evidenced by John Hopkins, possibly the most comprehensive an reliable sours of international stats about this pandemic.

 

PS "An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is a mechanism to facilitate the availability and use of medical countermeasures, including vaccines, during public health emergencies, such as the current COVID-19 pandemic." FDA.

[Scott]

Posts with false or misleading information have been removed.  Continue and face a suspension.  

 

[Jeffr2]

58 minutes ago, G Rex said:

Risk management?  People can choose protection or continue to fear the perceived danger of the treatment.

To me , the choice is obvious.

These results might get a few more people to take notice.

Let Darwin clean out a few more. 

The problem with letting Darwin clean them out, is we'll just be extending the pandemic!  And, as we all know, even if vaccinated, you can still get the virus, die or end up in the hospital with a tube jammed down your throat.

 

Luckily, countries like Germany and Austria are clamping down on the hold outs.  Perhaps this will help.

 

[Scott]

2 hours ago, G Rex said:

Risk management?  People can choose protection or continue to fear the perceived danger of the treatment.

To me , the choice is obvious.

These results might get a few more people to take notice.

Let Darwin clean out a few more. 

Unfortunately, it's not always the ones who want to be cleaned out that will be.  We have a long ways to go before we are able to protect the elderly and people in care facilities.  The immunocopromised are also at risk, like people undergoing chemo and radiation.  A lot of them don't want to go and don't deserve it.  

 

One of my kids lives in the heart of an extremely conservative area.  A couple of the guys who were usually in the bar calling Covid a hoax and not even considering a vaccine or wearing a mask, got Covid.  One died within 3 days (he was in his late 40's and diabetic), the other also died, but he lingered a long, long time in the hospital.  I don't know if it increased vaccine rates in the town, but it sure slowed the calling it a hoax.  It did catch people's attention.

 

Sadly, it seems like a lot of people don't take it seriously until it touches them.

 

[WhatsNext]

2 hours ago, blackprince said:

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Not wishing to be disputatious, but the vaccines are not for "experimental" use, and no authority has ever claimed they are. And you need to familiarise yourself with what "emergency" use actually means regarding vaccines.

 

Here is the source from pfizer itself : 

 

 

Friday, October 29, 2021 - 05:45pm

• Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is supported by clinical data showing a favorable safety profile and high vaccine efficacy of 90.7% in children 5 through 11 years of age during a period when Delta was the prevalent strain
• With this authorization, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is currently the only COVID-19 vaccine available in the U.S. for use in this age group
• FDA action represents an important milestone with the potential to help protect millions of school-aged children from COVID-19 infection

[Scott]

25 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

Here is the source from pfizer itself : 

 

 

Friday, October 29, 2021 - 05:45pm

• Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is supported by clinical data showing a favorable safety profile and high vaccine efficacy of 90.7% in children 5 through 11 years of age during a period when Delta was the prevalent strain
• With this authorization, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is currently the only COVID-19 vaccine available in the U.S. for use in this age group
• FDA action represents an important milestone with the potential to help protect millions of school-aged children from COVID-19 infection

Emergency Use Authorization and being experimental are two very different things.   Pfizer is fully authorized for use in adults.  

 

Death is not the only negative outcome from Covid.  

 

 

[WhatsNext]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

Emergency Use Authorization and being experimental are two very different things.   Pfizer is fully authorized for use in adults.  

 

Death is not the only negative outcome from Covid.  

 

 

It's all conditional in the EU, with yearly follow up's no full athorisation here info from the EMA : LINK (this is for pfizer, there are similar ones for the others)

Similar "emergency use only" authorisations have been given by the american counterpart the FDA.

 

The final full authorisation can only be given somewhere in 2023. 

Sadly protection is not the only outcome from the vaccine(s), no medical procedures or medicines are without side effects or dangers. Per person one has to make an informed decision and not be "pushed" or even forced indirectly by public opinion, governments or media. Yes the vaccines work, yes there is covid, but no the vaccines don't stop you from getting or spreading covid and they do lose their effectiveness slowly over time till you need a booster. It's not a wonder of modern medicine like it was sold to us "2 jabs and you are immune" sadly. 

 

C19 is a seasonal virus, there has never been a succesfull 1/2 jab vaccine for a virus like this, it's endemic and if you are in the risk groups you could be having a seasonal vaccin probably once per year. If  you are not in a risk group, then you don't neccesarily need the vaccine. Since it doesn't stop you from spreading the virus, you don't have to take it "for other people".

 

Again before someone reads me wrong : The virus is there, for some people it IS dangerous, for others not so much. The vaccine works but has limitations and it doesn't stop you from giving the virus to someone else. I fully support elderly and frail getting the vaccine. I fully not support giving it to teenagers or even young children that have a -much- smaller risk of covid than getting a serious complication from the vaccine like myorcarditis. 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

[Denim]

People who have refused any vaccine should not be cluttering up hospitals. They took a gamble and made their choice. They should stay at home and be given whatever medication is available plus oxygen if needed.  Ride out the consequences of their decision ( exceptions such as pregnant women to be treated in a hospital )

 

This may seem heartless but these people must try to understand that their decision could cost somebody else with an equally dire disease their life. Unvaccinated covid patients are getting all the attention while cancer patients etc are facing sometimes fatal delays in treatment. My own sister almost died of a serious heart condition because her surgery was put on the back burner for 9 months.  In the end she was saved as the surgeon said ' in the nick of time '.

[Rimmer]

A post discussing moderation and a reply have been removed

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, WhatsNext said:

It's all conditional in the EU, with yearly follow up's no full athorisation here info from the EMA : LINK (this is for pfizer, there are similar ones for the others)

Similar "emergency use only" authorisations have been given by the american counterpart the FDA.

 

The final full authorisation can only be given somewhere in 2023. 

Sadly protection is not the only outcome from the vaccine(s), no medical procedures or medicines are without side effects or dangers. Per person one has to make an informed decision and not be "pushed" or even forced indirectly by public opinion, governments or media. Yes the vaccines work, yes there is covid, but no the vaccines don't stop you from getting or spreading covid and they do lose their effectiveness slowly over time till you need a booster. It's not a wonder of modern medicine like it was sold to us "2 jabs and you are immune" sadly. 

 

C19 is a seasonal virus, there has never been a succesfull 1/2 jab vaccine for a virus like this, it's endemic and if you are in the risk groups you could be having a seasonal vaccin probably once per year. If  you are not in a risk group, then you don't neccesarily need the vaccine. Since it doesn't stop you from spreading the virus, you don't have to take it "for other people".

 

Again before someone reads me wrong : The virus is there, for some people it IS dangerous, for others not so much. The vaccine works but has limitations and it doesn't stop you from giving the virus to someone else. I fully support elderly and frail getting the vaccine. I fully not support giving it to teenagers or even young children that have a -much- smaller risk of covid than getting a serious complication from the vaccine like myorcarditis. 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Pfizer has full approval from the FDA. No emergency use authorization now.

 

You are at odds with all medical experts who recommend jabs for teens. Smaller risk for sure. But super spreaders for sure.

[JustAnotherHun]

1. Germany never was an example of how to manage the corona crisis.

2. Germany reduced the intensive care unit beds since July 2021 despite of knowing the numbers would rise in autumn.

3. Germany is not even able to provide exact vaccination rates. The published numbers are at a guess.

4. Germany's hospitals never were and are not overloaded due to Covid. Right now, 13 (THIRTEEN!) percent of the intense care beds are used for Covid patients.

 

Quote

And every single one is unvaccinated.

What a BS! This may be so in ONE hospital. Fact is, the part of fully vaccinated people is increasing everywhere.

 

One of the homes for elderly where we provide medical service (Bavaria) had an outbreak two weeks ago. 25 from 31 infected. Everyone of them double vaxxed, 5 of them with additional booster. 3 were taken to intense care, one died.

 

The "pandemic of the unvaccinated" is a political marketing cry to boost vaccination and devide the society even more. 

 

If one wants an example how to manage the crisis without falling into hysteria and damaging economy, education and social life: have a look at Sweden.

 

And before the usual isnults start:

I am triple vaxxed, I'm pro vaccination, my staff works at the frontline of the crisis and I work with Covid since the first day of the outbrake.

Edited November 16, 2021 by JustAnotherHun

[Scott]

6 hours ago, WhatsNext said:

It's all conditional in the EU, with yearly follow up's no full athorisation here info from the EMA : LINK (this is for pfizer, there are similar ones for the others)

Similar "emergency use only" authorisations have been given by the american counterpart the FDA.

 

The final full authorisation can only be given somewhere in 2023. 

Sadly protection is not the only outcome from the vaccine(s), no medical procedures or medicines are without side effects or dangers. Per person one has to make an informed decision and not be "pushed" or even forced indirectly by public opinion, governments or media. Yes the vaccines work, yes there is covid, but no the vaccines don't stop you from getting or spreading covid and they do lose their effectiveness slowly over time till you need a booster. It's not a wonder of modern medicine like it was sold to us "2 jabs and you are immune" sadly. 

 

C19 is a seasonal virus, there has never been a succesfull 1/2 jab vaccine for a virus like this, it's endemic and if you are in the risk groups you could be having a seasonal vaccin probably once per year. If  you are not in a risk group, then you don't neccesarily need the vaccine. Since it doesn't stop you from spreading the virus, you don't have to take it "for other people".

 

Again before someone reads me wrong : The virus is there, for some people it IS dangerous, for others not so much. The vaccine works but has limitations and it doesn't stop you from giving the virus to someone else. I fully support elderly and frail getting the vaccine. I fully not support giving it to teenagers or even young children that have a -much- smaller risk of covid than getting a serious complication from the vaccine like myorcarditis. 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

I don't think we are quite on the same page but it would appear we are operating with some of the same basic premises.   Where we differ is on some key issues:

 

First the use of terms like EUA and experimental in describing the vaccines.  Some have full approval, some are under Emergency Use.  Getting full approval is a matter of submitting the data to the relevant authorities for approval.  In the US, full approval has been granted for adults.  Once there is enough data on younger people, it most likely will be approved as well.  There is currently nothing that would show anything to counter indicate approval.   There is a plethora of vaccines from the newer technology using mRNA to the traditional viral vector vaccines.  The choices are many and the number of vaccines is increasing. 

 

Vaccines do lose their effectiveness over time.  That is true, but then that is true of many, many vaccines.  The Influenza vaccine is a good example.  Vaccines do reduce the serious of illness and shorten the length of illness -- the short the time you are sick, the less time and fewer number of infections you are likely to pass on.  What we currently have is good, strong vaccines that don't last quite as long as we would like.  Compared to the flu shot, we are way ahead of the game.  Influenza vaccines run about 40% to 60% effectiveness.

 

Myocarditis is a concern, but it is a much bigger concern for those who actually catch Covid than it is from the vaccine.   If a young person catches Covid, the rate of myocarditis occurring is 16 times higher than if you do not.  The risk from the vaccine is extremely low.  Children who are unvaccinated also have a risk of getting multi organ inflammatory syndrome with Covid and a severe case of myocarditis.  So for those who a predisposed to myocarditis, they have a very small chance of getting a mild, easy to treat conditions from the vaccine or a much more severe and complicated case along with Multi organ inflammatory syndrome.

 

I don't recall the vaccines being sold to us as 'a wonder of modern medicine.'  They were sold as our best hope to get out of the pandemic.  They are still our best hope, but we may have to be getting boosters more often and we may have to wear masks and social distance longer than we would like.  

 

You may be right, and it may become seasonal, but right now, it seems to be effective at spreading regardless of the weather/season.  

 

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

The "pandemic of the unvaccinated" is a political marketing cry to boost vaccination and devide the society even more. 

I guess when the facts are against you, you resort to attacking motives. There's overwhelming evidence from the developed world that the unvaccinated are far more likely to be hospitalized and die due to covid 19 than are the vaccinated. Or is it the case that Germans biologically different from other humans?

Edited November 16, 2021 by placeholder

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

 

2. Germany reduced the intensive care unit beds since July 2021 despite of knowing the numbers would rise in autumn.

Actually, the reduction you're referring to only take place after Germany had massively increased the number of ICU beds in the previous wave of the pandemic. Germany actually has one of the highest rates of ICU beds in the world. Here's an FT article from April 13, 2020

 

Oversupply of hospital beds helps Germany to fight virus
"At the outset of the pandemic, Germany had 28,000 intensive care beds, more than most of its neighbouring countries. In recent days that has been raised to 40,000, as hospitals brace themselves for a huge influx of patients with Covid-19.  “In contrast to Spain, France and Italy, we have a very high density of hospitals and beds, and this has emerged as a big advantage in this crisis,” said Uwe Janssens, head of the German Interdisciplinary Association for Intensive Care and Emergency Medicine (DIVI).

https://www.ft.com/content/d979c0e9-4806-4852-a49a-bbffa9cecfe6

Edited November 16, 2021 by placeholder

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

4. Germany's hospitals never were and are not overloaded due to Covid. Right now, 13 (THIRTEEN!) percent of the intense care beds are used for Covid patients.

Really?

 

Coronavirus: German ICUs see 40% more patients than in April

Intensive care units (ICU) at some German hospitals are reaching full capacity with seriously ill COVID-19 patients, the country's hospital federation said. A high percentage of nurses are off sick or in quarantine.

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-german-icus-see-40-more-patients-than-in-april/a-55836491

 

Berlin hospitals battle COVID with stretched supply lines

Germany was already facing a shortage of medical workers before the coronavirus pandemic hit. Now its hospitals are really feeling the pinch.

https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-hospitals-battle-covid-with-stretched-supply-lines/a-55826928

 

[Jeffr2]

12 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

1. Germany never was an example of how to manage the corona crisis.

2. Germany reduced the intensive care unit beds since July 2021 despite of knowing the numbers would rise in autumn.

3. Germany is not even able to provide exact vaccination rates. The published numbers are at a guess.

4. Germany's hospitals never were and are not overloaded due to Covid. Right now, 13 (THIRTEEN!) percent of the intense care beds are used for Covid patients.

 

What a BS! This may be so in ONE hospital. Fact is, the part of fully vaccinated people is increasing everywhere.

 

One of the homes for elderly where we provide medical service (Bavaria) had an outbreak two weeks ago. 25 from 31 infected. Everyone of them double vaxxed, 5 of them with additional booster. 3 were taken to intense care, one died.

 

The "pandemic of the unvaccinated" is a political marketing cry to boost vaccination and devide the society even more. 

 

If one wants an example how to manage the crisis without falling into hysteria and damaging economy, education and social life: have a look at Sweden.

 

And before the usual isnults start:

I am triple vaxxed, I'm pro vaccination, my staff works at the frontline of the crisis and I work with Covid since the first day of the outbrake.

You're way off base.  Misrepresenting the facts big time.  I seriously doubt you are working the frontline. NO way.

[Scott]

Posting false or misleading information will earn suspensions.  

 

Here's an update on the situation for ICU beds in Germany as of Nov. 16:

 

Some intensive care units are already full, while other hospitals are having to cancel planned operations in order to divert staff to critical wards. 

The latest data shows about 14 percent of intensive care beds are still available nationwide. And in 33 districts not a single bed is free. In some regions, more than 50 percent of the beds in ICUs are occupied by Covid-19 patients, illustrating why medical staff have been raising the alarm.

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20211116/covid-surge-the-german-districts-running-out-of-intensive-care-beds/

[blackprince]

Here's a couple of relevant links. The first includes a detailed breakdown of uccupancy of ICU beds for German health disctricts.

 

The second seeks to explain the surges across Europe in general.

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20211116/covid-surge-the-german-districts-running-out-of-intensive-care-beds/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/13/why-is-europe-returning-to-the-dark-days-of-covid

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by blackprince

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Here's a couple of relevant links. The first includes a detailed breakdown of uccupancy of ICU beds for German health disctricts.

 

The second seeks to explain the surges across Europe in general.

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20211116/covid-surge-the-german-districts-running-out-of-intensive-care-beds/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/13/why-is-europe-returning-to-the-dark-days-of-covid

 

From the Guardian link:

 

But experts agree that a combination of low vaccine uptake, waning immunity among people inoculated early, and growing complacency about masks and distancing after governments relaxed curbs over the summer is the most likely cause.

 

“We’ve returned to the dark days of the pandemic,” the head of one of the city’s intensive care units said last week after a boom in hospital admissions, 90% of whom were unvaccinated and most directly linked to protests.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Jeffr2

[blackprince]

16 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

If one wants an example how to manage the crisis without falling into hysteria and damaging economy, education and social life: have a look at Sweden.

 

And before the usual isnults start:

I am triple vaxxed, I'm pro vaccination, my staff works at the frontline of the crisis and I work with Covid since the first day of the outbrake.

Yes, Sweden provides a very useful comparison precisely because its approach was so different from everyone else's in Europe. I haven't followed the recent trends in Sweden, but I looked into this quite a lot about 15 months ago because many people in the UK were advocating "herd immunity" and using Sweden as an example.

 

I couldn't actually agree with the British advocates of "herd immunity" because (1) Swedish culture is very different from British, I'd summarise it as "more sensible"! (2) population density is much lower in Sweden (3) working from home is very common in Sweden and was before the pandemic too, much more common than in the UK (4) Swden did have covid social rules, albeit much more relaxed than elsewhere.

 

So I found the comparison with the UK to be misguided. However I did compare Sweden with other Nordics, and its covid success rate 15 months ago was not as  good as the other Nordics. On the other hand its economy and society was less damaged, as you rightly say.

 

As for Bavaria, quite possibly my favourite spot on the planet!

 

Anyway, good luck on the front line of covid. It's very rare to get an opinion from the front line. Cheers

 

 

[blackprince]

Further to my previous post about Sweden:

 

Re GDP:

“About 0.6% up (from before pandemic) which puts Sweden at the front of the pack in European terms,” David Oxley, an economist at Capital Economics, told Reuters.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-gdp-idUSL8N2P53EZ

 

Re Mortality rate since the beginning of the pandemic:

Sweden has performed substantially better than the US and UK, but worse than Germany.

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

 

 

[placeholder]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:24 AM, WhatsNext said:

Here is the source from pfizer itself : 

 

 

Friday, October 29, 2021 - 05:45pm

• Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is supported by clinical data showing a favorable safety profile and high vaccine efficacy of 90.7% in children 5 through 11 years of age during a period when Delta was the prevalent strain
• With this authorization, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is currently the only COVID-19 vaccine available in the U.S. for use in this age group
• FDA action represents an important milestone with the potential to help protect millions of school-aged children from COVID-19 infection

That's the case for children. Not the case with adults.

[JustAnotherHun]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:51 PM, placeholder said:

I guess when the facts are against you, you resort to attacking motives.

And I guess if you don't like what someone writes, you do not answer to that what you've quoted.

Christian Drosten on 11.11.2021:

"we don't have a pandemia of the unvaccinated"

 

To the declining number of intensive care beds:

That's fact. But sadly this forum does not allow links in foreign language.

If you're able to read German, just google for ist. There are hundreds.

Edited November 19, 2021 by JustAnotherHun

[JustAnotherHun]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:13 PM, placeholder said:

Really?

Yes, really.

The (nation wide) rate on 16. Nov. 2021 was 13% covid patients in intense care units.

Facts, sorry.

[JustAnotherHun]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:38 PM, Jeffr2 said:

You're way off base.  Misrepresenting the facts big time.  I seriously doubt you are working the frontline. NO way.

You have absolutelly no idea what you're talking about.

And what you like to doubt is up to you.

"It shouldn't be so, so it cannot be so".

Stone table niveau.

[ozimoron]

Austria reimposes full lockdown, plans to make COVID vaccines compulsory

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/austria-reimposes-full-lockdown-makes-vaccination-compulsory-2021-11-19/

[GrandPapillon]

57 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

You have absolutelly no idea what you're talking about.

And what you like to doubt is up to you.

"It shouldn't be so, so it cannot be so".

Stone table niveau.

I would advise you not to engage seriously in any debate about COVID on these threads, your posts will be reported by some idiots who think he is right and you are wrong, and next thing you know you are suspended for 1 month for bringing certain questions that "nobody" on the thread wants to hear ???? and I speak from experience ????

 

Some "self-righteous" senior members on the COVID topics get a free pass while others are automatically censored. Just saying ????

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by GrandPapillon