Thai Higher-ups Want To Cull Out Undesirables -

[brahmburgers]

I've just read several threads in this 'Thai visa' category and it saddens me. For Thai Immigration to continue to make visa compiance so difficult is a national disgrace. It borders on chai-dam. I am not a dummy, but I also don't have a mind like a stainless steel vice-grip. Why should 'the man on the street' have to decipher such manifold layers of convoluted rules in order to get a visa? There are only two answers to that rhetorical question: Either Thai Imm officials purposefully design the rules to be achingly difficult or they're dummies who can't configure a relatively simple set of rules.

I understand that Thai politicos want to cull out farang 'undesirables' - but making visa regulations so convoluted, mutable and difficult is not the way. Yes, it will deter farang from residing here, but not necessarily the undesirables. It's more likely that many decent farang - those who contribute mightily to Thailand - will be the ones culled out of the country.

Out of my small circle of friends up here in northern Thailand, over 50% have left Thailand within the past year. That includes a retired engineer, two volunteer teachers, a person who's head of a do-good organization which gave grant money to hill tribers, an inventor of alternative energy gizmos, and several computer programmers. Are those the type of people that Thailand wants to deter from staying here?

[Mid]

when your in sole possession of the knowledge of the location of the goal posts ,

it's easy to regulate the scoring of the opposing team ............................................

[carnival1200]

I've just read several threads in this 'Thai visa' category and it saddens me. For Thai Immigration to continue to make visa compiance so difficult is a national disgrace. It borders on chai-dam. I am not a dummy, but I also don't have a mind like a stainless steel vice-grip. Why should 'the man on the street' have to decipher such manifold layers of convoluted rules in order to get a visa? There are only two answers to that rhetorical question: Either Thai Imm officials purposefully design the rules to be achingly difficult or they're dummies who can't configure a relatively simple set of rules.

I understand that Thai politicos want to cull out farang 'undesirables' - but making visa regulations so convoluted, mutable and difficult is not the way. Yes, it will deter farang from residing here, but not necessarily the undesirables. It's more likely that many decent farang - those who contribute mightily to Thailand - will be the ones culled out of the country.

Out of my small circle of friends up here in northern Thailand, over 50% have left Thailand within the past year. That includes a retired engineer, two volunteer teachers, a person who's head of a do-good organization which gave grant money to hill tribers, an inventor of alternative energy gizmos, and several computer programmers. Are those the type of people that Thailand wants to deter from staying here?

It seems that the 'powers that be' see all ferangs as somewhat undesirable.  Even 

those who contribute greatly to the economy by means of invesment and support 

of Thai nationals (wifes, girlfriends etc)  eg. The sense of Nationalism being promoted

by the current regime is sure to backfire in the not to distant future.  However, as ever,

many Thais seem happy to revel in the whole 'Thai Lak Thai' syndrome.  (different party

same theme)

On the other hand a lot of Thais are starting to notice the down side to the anti ferang

policies:  Buisness is down; the housing market is crippled, etc. etc.  Desirable tourists with low budgets dont go to feed all of the many buisnesses depending on long stay western (mostly) residents.  For every ferang that has left i would guess there are

ten planning to leave.  

Iwould the last one to leave please turn of the light

[Khun Jean]

Strange. I have no problem obtaining a visa as i am maried to a Thai, and friends of mine have either a retirement visa or a business visa.

When going on holiday a visa is very easy too.

What is the problem?

[jdinasia]

I'm NOT married ... not working ... under 50 .... etc etc ... visa seems to be no problem! oh well

[carnival1200]

Strange. I have no problem obtaining a visa as i am maried to a Thai, and friends of mine have either a retirement visa or a business visa.

When going on holiday a visa is very easy too.

What is the problem?

It would seem strange to someone who is established or married or has existing buisness (anyone with an im alright pull the ladder up jack mentality, really)

But believe it or not everyone doesnt fit into your comfortable catagories.

Try reading the papers or look at the half finished (just started) housing projects - you

may educate youself

[Maestro]

I understand that Thai politicos want to cull out farang 'undesirables'...

Personally, based on my admittedly limited insight into the way the Thai government operates, I believe it is not so much the politicians, ie the government in a narrow sense (cabinet members, ministers, deputy ministers), but the bureaucratic apparatus, ie the administration, that deserves credit for visa policies and the rules for extension of stay.

The bureaucratic apparatus keeps growing over time and the ever-increasing number of higher level officials, desirous to justify their existence, play at modifying old rules and creating new ones. These officials, ie in the present case the officials of the Royal Thai Police or, in a narrower sense of the Immigration Bureau, are not the ones who will have to implement these rules at the entry points, and for this reason the rules are not always very practical. The rule of maximum 90 visa-exempt days within six months is a good example, and some of the extension rules could also have been written more clearly.

--

Maestro

[samran]

Goal posts change - and that is a soveriegn right of any country to do that...whether we like it or not. Nations do so to protect their national interests, and their national interests don't necessarily align with what what is ones personal interests.

I think, to be pefectly fair to people here, from what I see the 90/180 day rule has been applied haphazardly, with little consistency...at least in the intial phase. When goal posts change, the RTG isn't exactly the best manager of disemination of information, nor of consisent application.

On the other side of the coin, I also think that people are unfairly thinking that the change of rules is somehow designed to deter farangs here. I think it is grossly unfair, uninformed and somewhat egotistical to think that the RTG is somehow targeting the poor little white man. It simply isn't.

I think the core reason for the reforms, was to clamp down on the ability of undesirables - read terrorists - to basically come and stay in Thailand indefinetly. Hambali was a huge wake up call to the lax system of immigration governance. Whatever you say about transperency and democracy here, the last thing the Thai goverment wants is their country to be a haven or easy hiding ground for terrorrists and other criminals. The geopolitical situation in SE Asia has changed...Indonesia and the relative instability there is a huge concern to all its neighbours.

I think the second reason was to formalise the system some more. Thailand had perpetual visa runners who while not breaking the law, were definetly undermining the spirit of the law. For the most part, any nation needs to know who is within its borders and for what reason - especially long termers. Visa running meant that a significant minority of people were basically out of sight of the Thai govenment. In a country where everyone has an ID card and a permanent house registration, and any legitimate long term stayer has to report every 90 days, under the radar visa runners were clearly unacceptable.

These restrictions forced people who wanted to be here into making a choice. They either had to leave, or make Thailand their permanent home under a number of categories, whether it be Work Permits, Business ownership, Spousal stay, retirement, or guardian of a Thai national. In otherwords, you were out if you didn't have a family link to thailand, or you weren't prepared to regularise yourself in the Thai economy (by not just spending money, but being proactively creating value to the Thai economy - and paying tax). As far as I can see, this is the standard that most governments hold, espeically governemnts in countries most of us hail from.

But hold on you say....the Thai government is splitting up families? Really? How?

As far as I can see, especially on the family front, laws were RELAXED to allow easier terms of stay, especially for foreign male spouses married to Thai's. How is that you ask? Well for starters, instead of the foreign male having to earn 40K per month, the burden has been spread so that it applies to husband/wife combined income.

How unfair you might protest! What right does Thailand have to tell me that I MUST be able to support my family??!!?? Well in fact it has every right. And if any of you find yoursleves in the position of shipping your family back home to your own countries, you can be very sure that your home government is going to require that YOU (not your wife) provide evidence that you are able to support your family - usually without recourse to public funds/welfare.

But you doth protest more! 40,000 baht? Why 40,000 baht ($1300, 900 Euros, 600 pounds). A MONTH? Just a personal opinion, but if you going to have a life here, save for a retirement, send your kids to a half way decent school so they get a good start in life, pay for medical insurance etc etc...then 40,000 baht is a ridiclously low amount per month to support a family. But that is a personal opinion.

But dammit you say, I'm not married...how can I stay? Well, get a job in a capcity where you can contribute to the economy to help in grow. I know plenty of people who come here and do well for themselves, but they get out there and hunt around and do wind up with jobs. Unlike other countries, Thailand doesn't restrict the overall numbers of work permits issued. But, please, have a skill which is useful.

But I work for myself! Well that is fine too, start a business, provide some employment to Thai's...and off you go. It is possible, and there are thousands of farangs here successfully doing the same thing.

Thailand isn't in the business (anymore) of letting people just come and set up shop...especially the ones who aren't wanting to formalise their stay. But, if you are likely to be economically productive, or show that you have the basic capcity to support your family, then I don't think the rules are too unfair at all.

[keemao]

Thailand isn't in the business (anymore) of letting people just come and set up shop...especially the ones who aren't wanting to formalise their stay. But, if you are likely to be economically productive, or show that you have the basic capcity to support your family, then I don't think the rules are too unfair at all.

hear hear........

I am now a Thai national so obviously no problem, but I've always agreed that whatever a country's policies are, they should be followed. If you do not like it, then shop elsewhere.....

Has anyone ever looked at their own country's immigration criteria?? I deal with Australian authorities on behalf of Thai nationals regularly and can tell you the rules in oz are stricter than Thailand..........I have been told on many occasions that the British are harsher.

Don't forget the majority of Thai leaders have studied abroad and dealt with the immigration departments in the western world.

Anyways, just mumbling now................If you really are a genuine contribution to Thailand, speak the lingo and know the customs, plus have a respectable character reference you will be home free. Just don't expect it for free...

In Thailand.........money talks. Always has, always will be this way.

[rgs2001uk]

Either Thai Imm officials purposefully design the rules to be achingly difficult or they're dummies who can't configure a relatively simple set of rules.

i would say just the opposite, imho, the rules are not written in black and white on purpose, this gives the io the latitude in which to work when making a descion.

i dont know how many times i have seen some farang loosing the plot and trying to quote the rules to the io, hoping the io will give a descion the applicant wants to hear, but because its not what the applicant wants to hear he blames the io.

i am not beau brummel, but turning up at suan plu straight from a night on the piss, unshaven and unkempt is probably the worst start, whether we like it or not, the io has already formed an opinion, before you even get to the desk, its human nature.

then we move onto not having the correct paperwork, thinking because its not asked for on a website doesnt negate the need for it, eg, a printout from an atm machine on the day of making the application.

an applicant trying for extension based on being married turns up, and wife is nowhere to be seen, etc etc.

yes i sympathise with the genuine applicants, genuinley here to support a wife and family, unfortunatley, there are too many trying to buck the system, look at various threads running elsewhere on this site, education visas etc.

however with a bit of homework and effort i think most genuine people should find a way round their concerns.

how many people have been caught with their pants down, spending money instead of keeping in invested, i know in my situation, i am grandfathered under the old rules, who knows that may change, the financial requirement may change from 40k to 60k or even 80k baht per month.

i know of one retired guy, he has 1 million baht in the bank and a pension of 15k baht per month, if the rules change, he will be out.

thailand was seen as a cheap alternative to ones own countries, based on favourable exchange rates, as the baht appreciates, i believe more and more people will no longer be able to meet the minimum requirements.

i know of at least 2 people, who will no longer be able to retire here because of rules changing.

personally, i am preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

i also didnt burn any bridges before coming here.

i believe we are now seeing the same problems many brits went through in spain a few years ago, sold their houses in the uk and retired to spain to live off their 15%, what happened interest rates dropped, so consequently their buying power dropped, i believe at one point the spanish govt said many were living below what the spanish called the poverty line, the same people were in limbo, couldnt afford to get on the property ladder back home and could no longer live in spain.

as also been pointed out the rules ar now more flexible, no longer the onus on the applicant to meet the need, it can now be a joint income.

i am not going to blame someone for who they fall in love with and marry, but has been pointed out elsewhere, by thai people whos opinion i respect, on this forum, the choice of partner starts in the selection process.

thats why so many talk of the rules breaking up families, what is to stop the wife going with the husband to farang land, as my wife wants.

yes thailand is great, if you can afford to be here, its a lonely place if you have no money.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Maestro
Corrected quoting tags.

[tijnebijn]

Well,most of you have a good point.But the thing about the 40k,if you compare that with the average income of a Thai family, and what they ask us to make is a big ,what I say a huge difference.Some can argue that in my homecountry they will ask more,if you say that in comparison I will have to make a triple or quadruple what an average income (in my home country)makes?I not think so,an average income will do(to have a foreign wife come over).So that means lets say 15k in comparison in Thailand will do.Allright maybe they can raise it a bid ,but more that 25k they cannot ask.Also I am really confused about what kind of work I can do,cause almost everything is restricted,and I am not educated on a level that they prefer,and also that is different in my homecountry,the spouse can work everything she wants too.Some may say,why not go back then,well the wife does not like it over there,is cold and hasa lot of grudgy people(Holland).I find it very hard to make 40k,we do not make it,at least for now I do not know how to do it.

But I just want to make a point with how the things really seem to be like for one, can be a different pair of shoes for the other ,it is not that easy.And to make a comparison with 'Farang' there home countries is ridiculous,do not forget it is a third world country here,so be careful what to quote.

[Mid]

Out of my small circle of friends up here in northern Thailand, over 50% have left Thailand within the past year. That includes a retired engineer, two volunteer teachers, a person who's head of a do-good organization which gave grant money to hill tribers, an inventor of alternative energy gizmos, and several computer programmers. Are those the type of people that Thailand wants to deter from staying here

perhaps it's the OP's headline because I fail to see the link between what the OP posted as I've quoted above and the two quotes from others below...............

Thailand isn't in the business (anymore) of letting people just come and set up shop...especially the ones who aren't wanting to formalise their stay. But, if you are likely to be economically productive, or show that you have the basic capcity to support your family, then I don't think the rules are too unfair at all.

Anyways, just mumbling now................If you really are a genuine contribution to Thailand, speak the lingo and know the customs, plus have a respectable character reference you will be home free. Just don't expect it for free...

[jdinasia]

Well,most of you have a good point.But the thing about the 40k,if you compare that with the average income of a Thai family, and what they ask us to make is a big ,what I say a huge difference.Some can argue that in my homecountry they will ask more,if you say that in comparison I will have to make a triple or quadruple what an average income (in my home country)makes?I not think so,an average income will do(to have a foreign wife come over).So that means lets say 15k in comparison in Thailand will do.Allright maybe they can raise it a bid ,but more that 25k they cannot ask.Also I am really confused about what kind of work I can do,cause almost everything is restricted,and I am not educated on a level that they prefer,and also that is different in my homecountry,the spouse can work everything she wants too.Some may say,why not go back then,well the wife does not like it over there,is cold and hasa lot of grudgy people(Holland).I find it very hard to make 40k,we do not make it,at least for now I do not know how to do it.

But I just want to make a point with how the things really seem to be like for one, can be a different pair of shoes for the other ,it is not that easy.And to make a comparison with 'Farang' there home countries is ridiculous,do not forget it is a third world country here,so be careful what to quote.

That's 40k SPLIT between 2 adults .... 20k each ... not crazy at all!

[samran]

Out of my small circle of friends up here in northern Thailand, over 50% have left Thailand within the past year. That includes a retired engineer, two volunteer teachers, a person who's head of a do-good organization which gave grant money to hill tribers, an inventor of alternative energy gizmos, and several computer programmers. Are those the type of people that Thailand wants to deter from staying here

perhaps it's the OP's headline because I fail to see the link between what the OP posted as I've quoted above and the two quotes from others below...............

Thailand isn't in the business (anymore) of letting people just come and set up shop...especially the ones who aren't wanting to formalise their stay. But, if you are likely to be economically productive, or show that you have the basic capcity to support your family, then I don't think the rules are too unfair at all.

From my perspective:

Retiree: Can he afford to meet the requirements? The hurdle isn't particularly high. If not, why should Thailand have to take on a potential liability...

Volunteer Teachers: Tough call - but a) what is the charity doing about it? (b') work permit rules for teachers are much more relaxed AFAIK.

Computer programmers: I don't understand...they can't get work??? That isn't a visa issue, that is a issue of being incompatable in the job market in northern Thailand. Or are they working remotely...Thailand has work permit rules for work done in Thailand, and income your receive for that work, and bring into Thailand is taxable...should they be above the law?

The inventor: should Thailand have to take a punt on every inventor and give them a visa cause they 'may' strike it rich? If he thinks he has a product, why doesn't he establish a business?

[Mid]

thanxs , appreciate your replying ,

rationalises out quite neatly I'll agree ,

however surely these are the kind of people the country would like to stay ,

as far as I can tell they were all supporting themselves from outside money ,

what is the problem I'm missing ?

[tijnebijn]

Well 20k each may not be crazy at all.I do agree with that,but if it seems so easy why not evry average Thai can make money like this??My wife for example just started her new business,until now it is still not doing that great,I hope for the better ofcourse.What I wanted to point out is that it is not that easy to make money like that,it takes a lot of time.Maybe Bangkok will do,but up in the North it is a different story.

Up here they have something with renting a place ,asking double the money they are reporting to the tax department,every year 20k extra tea money etc etc.And then I am still not talking about the A locations.

Maybe now some can understand why thais have a hard time to cope.

But ofcourse I try to eventually make the 40k,only sitting on savings will do a while but not forever.

[samran]

thanxs , appreciate your replying ,

rationalises out quite neatly I'll agree ,

however surely these are the kind of people the country would like to stay ,

as far as I can tell they were all supporting themselves from outside money ,

what is the problem I'm missing ?

I don't think we are actually disagreeing on anything/ nor are you missing anything. In principal, all of them should be able to stay here, and do what they are doing. The big question is, why are they not going down an available and legit path to do so?

[Misty]

Thailand isn't in the business (anymore) of letting people just come and set up shop...especially the ones who aren't wanting to formalise their stay. But, if you are likely to be economically productive, or show that you have the basic capcity to support your family, then I don't think the rules are too unfair at all.

Now I should start by saying I do usually agree with Samran....but I have to say that the business visa requirements that suddenly changed in Oct 06 from foreign advisors needing 1 Thai employee per extended business visa to needing 4 was a bit unfair. For example, say a new SME advisory business started operating in Aug 2006 with all the legal bells and whistles. The advisory business did its original business plan based on Immigration's well known regulations: for 2 foreigners with extended business visas, you need 2 Thai employees. Being advisory, it did not need a large number of inexpensive factory workers, but only a few smart well-paid Thais (paid far more than the owners can afford to pay themselves). Of course, if the business did well, it could hope to hire more smart Thais in the future. The business registers for VAT, it invests in start-up costs. Come Oct, suddenly the business needs 8 Thais. From 2, to 8! No particular reason given. What are these new 6 employees to do? To really contribute, they would need to be quite well-educated, quite expensive, and probably need to a fair amount of training.

Seems an advisory SME trying to do the right thing is being severely penalized. So sorry, but I simply cannot call this fair. Of course the SME can just go hire 6 motorbike messenger boys or 6 maids or 6 whatever to keep the authorities happy, but come on, this makes no sense. If there were companies or individuals abusing the old policy, go after those companies. But to claim to support legitimate SMEs setting up legitimate business and investing money, and training Thais, and then have a rapid about face like the Oct policy to me is completely unfair and discouraging to foreign investment.

Sorry for the rant, but this change made no sense to me.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Misty

[tropo]

Strange. I have no problem obtaining a visa as i am maried to a Thai, and friends of mine have either a retirement visa or a business visa.

When going on holiday a visa is very easy too.

What is the problem?

What a great idea! Let's all get married to a Thai and live happily ever after.

[samran]

Seems an advisory SME trying to do the right thing is being severely penalized. So sorry, but I simply cannot call this fair. Of course the SME can just go hire 6 motorbike messenger boys or 6 maids or 6 whatever to keep the authorities happy, but come on, this makes no sense. If there were companies or individuals abusing the old policy, go after those companies. But to claim to support legitimate SMEs setting up legitimate business and investing money, and training Thais, and then have a rapid about face like the Oct policy to me is completely unfair and discouraging to foreign investment.

Sorry for the rant, but this change made no sense to me.

Look, you are right, and I guess my 'rant' would have never covered everything. You are right, certain aspects make no sense, and it is a pointless excercise to simply go out hiring additonal maids and window cleaners just so you could tick the boxes with the added bonus of what amounts to an unfair tax via the complusory payment of additional salaries.

[vermin on arrival]

I've just read several threads in this 'Thai visa' category and it saddens me. For Thai Immigration to continue to make visa compiance so difficult is a national disgrace. It borders on chai-dam. I am not a dummy, but I also don't have a mind like a stainless steel vice-grip. Why should 'the man on the street' have to decipher such manifold layers of convoluted rules in order to get a visa? There are only two answers to that rhetorical question: Either Thai Imm officials purposefully design the rules to be achingly difficult or they're dummies who can't configure a relatively simple set of rules.

I understand that Thai politicos want to cull out farang 'undesirables' - but making visa regulations so convoluted, mutable and difficult is not the way. Yes, it will deter farang from residing here, but not necessarily the undesirables. It's more likely that many decent farang - those who contribute mightily to Thailand - will be the ones culled out of the country.

Out of my small circle of friends up here in northern Thailand, over 50% have left Thailand within the past year. That includes a retired engineer, two volunteer teachers, a person who's head of a do-good organization which gave grant money to hill tribers, an inventor of alternative energy gizmos, and several computer programmers. Are those the type of people that Thailand wants to deter from staying here?

Brahmburgers,

I'm in complete agreement with you. They are deliberately making everything more difficult for foreigners to longstay here. The rules are convoluted to make the average person not want to deal with them. The bar is consistently being raised on all manner of visa. It is slowly forcing many good people out. It is not merely forcing out the "undesireables"; most of those have already left. Immigration is trying to get the number of foreigners living here on a long term basis down to a level they think is acceptable to them, whatever that may be.

The one visa that many say has gotten easier is not necessarily easier. For the people, who had successfully had the marriage visa based on 400K in the bank, the change in the rule has disrupted them. To make them have to show 40,000 baht income per month is not really fair because it is well above the average income in this country. There are people who were legal based on their savings, but now can't meet the new criteria, and it looks like they won't be gradfathered in.

I'm sure that in the future the bar will continue to be raised, and that many more people who had legal visas before will be denied their renewal. Maybe even some of those who posted earlier, saying how everythig was ice and easy for them with their visas will be ones who will have to leave. Of course, it is Thailand's right to do it, but it isn't very endearing.

I actually feel that it is all a question of culture. Just as one current minister recently said that obscenity/sexual content on the internet was contaminating Thai culture, maybe the people, who are making these rules, think that having so many foreigners in Thailand is contaminating their culture as well.

Edited June 6, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[JimsKnight]

Yup, if you're a teacher, a person over 50 or married its you're good to go for visa happy times!

If you're not it seems the righteous 'get-with-the-program or go home' brigade want to create a NWO for the farang.

Don't sweat it though, you just need to build up your money and capital before moving out to LOS. So make some sacrifices, cut back on spending and shoulder the burden dudes.

For UK people the all-in wonder visa (non imm '0') is the key, but you'll have to return to the UK after 15 months. So budget accordingly.

If you're already out here an up sht street with finances then consider a re-org. by moving back home and building up your coin.

[khall64au]

Who do you class as "Undesirables"?

I have worked in Thailand for almost 5 yrs, as a professional journalist, promoting the virtues of this country to the world.

For my efforts, I am on the brink of poverty and facing returning to my country to "earn a decent living" ... despite the fact that I finance my own work permit, I cannot afford to continue promoting Thailand for the pathetic rates that writers are paid in SE Asia.

Sad but True!!!

[Jimjim]

Try reading the papers or look at the half finished (just started) housing projects - you

may educate youself

I don't see how walking by a half finished housing project would educate someone to believe that it was due to harsher immigration policies.

[Tiger7Moth]

Try reading the papers or look at the half finished (just started) housing projects - you

may educate youself

I don't see how walking by a half finished housing project would educate someone to believe that it was due to harsher immigration policies.

If you substitute "crack down on farang" for immigration it is more clear. In the past farangs would purchase houses by setting up bogus companies and having the company purchase the house. Existing laws prevented this but were not enforced. About a year ago Thailand started to enforce the laws (of course it is their right to do so - is it wise however?). Anyway, as a result, the home purchase by farangs has deceased greatly. Since a very small % of the Thai population can afford to spend several million baht for a home and farangs can't purchase them, who is purchasing them. The answer is no one. As a result Thai banks have stopped giving money to small and medium size builders and the builders don't have the money to finish their projects. Therefore, the half finished housing projects and the large number of homes for sale without buyers.

[DrFisher]

I'm very confused about the visa situation from reading posts and listening to people in the streets. I don't know anyone that has ever had a problem getting a legitimate visa. Obviously if a person was to come here with a tourist visa and live here on it, it would not be legal nor would it be legal in most of our native countries. You may know of the TV program "So you think you can dance" a young man from an Asian country applied and made it on the show only to be deported because he was in the USA on a student visa not a working visa 0% tolerance for regulation violations. There is 90% more paper work and a lot more money involved in getting a visa to the USA than there is for Thailand. Every year my employer gives me a letter for immigration and work permit, this year I spent 2 hours (because I went at lunch hour like a idiot) and 1,900 ฿ to renew my visa for 1 year and about 3,000 ฿ and 20 min. for my work permit. No, questions asked and no problems. I have heard people say they are very wealthy but not of retirement age and they also say they have problems and I don't understand why. I have a friend from the USA who is 27 years old that has more money than he even knows and he is given renewable visas every year for 1,900 ฿ minimal questions asked. So, forgive me for asking but, why is it so hard for some to get visas? I kind of get the feeling these "undesirables" you speak of are great in number and perhaps up to no good.

[richard10365]

I've just read several threads in this 'Thai visa' category and it saddens me. For Thai Immigration to continue to make visa compiance so difficult is a national disgrace. It borders on chai-dam. I am not a dummy, but I also don't have a mind like a stainless steel vice-grip. Why should 'the man on the street' have to decipher such manifold layers of convoluted rules in order to get a visa? There are only two answers to that rhetorical question: Either Thai Imm officials purposefully design the rules to be achingly difficult or they're dummies who can't configure a relatively simple set of rules.

I understand that Thai politicos want to cull out farang 'undesirables' - but making visa regulations so convoluted, mutable and difficult is not the way. Yes, it will deter farang from residing here, but not necessarily the undesirables. It's more likely that many decent farang - those who contribute mightily to Thailand - will be the ones culled out of the country.

Out of my small circle of friends up here in northern Thailand, over 50% have left Thailand within the past year. That includes a retired engineer, two volunteer teachers, a person who's head of a do-good organization which gave grant money to hill tribers, an inventor of alternative energy gizmos, and several computer programmers. Are those the type of people that Thailand wants to deter from staying here?

When dealing with government organizations, specific rules are a must. Especially if they are dealing with something that definitly has an impact on the country. Law, order, and the basic rights of it's own citizens must be maintained with the rights of citizens comming before foreigners.

The rules are quite understandable if you take the time to read and comprehend them. If you show up at immigration with the same attitude that you would have ordering a burger at McDonalds, then you might get a rude awakening and told to go home.

Sometimes I wonder if the level of education of the individual has anything to do with the success or failure rate of visa applications. I suspect it does. With people with no degree having the most difficulty.

Be prepared before you go to immigration. Do your homework and you should be ok.

[thedi]

Tourist visas are for tourist; visa waver 30-day entries are for short time tourists; Non-imm B is for people who intend to work and Non-imm O for people who do not intend to work but have family in TH.

If you apply for the right visa for your purpose of stay, and then check the condition that the Thai authorities defined for you, you do the right thing and should have no problems.

But if you think it is like with 'Windows-XP home edition': I can use it at home or in school, then you may run into problems. Visa names are not defined by PR specialists to lure you to take the one that gives the seller the most profit. Visa names guide you to apply for the right visa and then conform to the rules defined by your visa.

If you can not do what you want to do with your visa, this means, that the authorities do not want you to do that. A very common misconception is, that in this situtation, you just take a visa from an other category - and every thing will be fine.

In fact it may work for a while, but there is no guarantie that it will continue to work. The longer you stay, the more you will get involved. At first you may think: 'lets try it this way - if it works: fine - if not: never mind'. But you will strike roots in Thailand, and after some years a change of the rules will be a disaster for you.

As foreigners, we must accept, that the Thai authorities define the rules. And this rules may not match our desires. I may be hard, but there may be a NO from immigration. Many westeners have a problem to acept a NO from any authority.

I repeat my recommendation: Start by applying for the right visa. 'Right' meaning the visa, that matches your intention of stay, not just the easiest one to apply for.

Regards

Thedi

[Gary A]

I'm one of the fortunate guys who qualifies for a retirement visa. I'm also legally married to a Thai lady and could go with the marriage visa but choose to stick with my retirement visa. And, before anyone corrects me, I know there are no such things as a retirement visa or a marriage visa. That's a little confusing too because that's what they actually are.

My heart goes out to the old pensioners who have been living here for years and no longer qualify. Many have given up on having any sort of visa and are living under the threat of being caught and then what? Eventually they will get caught. Now I'll get flamed by the young guys but that's okay too. You young guys can always go home and get a job, the old guys cannot.

I really don't understand why an old pensioner who can easily live here for less than 20,000 baht per month has to have many times the income of the average Thai. I too don't like the direction this thing is headed in.

[Naam]

I'm one of the fortunate guys who qualifies for a retirement visa. I'm also legally married to a Thai lady and could go with the marriage visa but choose to stick with my retirement visa. And, before anyone corrects me, I know there are no such things as a retirement visa or a marriage visa. That's a little confusing too because that's what they actually are.

My heart goes out to the old pensioners who have been living here for years and no longer qualify. Many have given up on having any sort of visa and are living under the threat of being caught and then what? Eventually they will get caught. Now I'll get flamed by the young guys but that's okay too. You young guys can always go home and get a job, the old guys cannot.

I really don't understand why an old pensioner who can easily live here for less than 20,000 baht per month has to have many times the income of the average Thai. I too don't like the direction this thing is headed in.

i fully agree with you Gary but i could verify two cases where old pensioners (both germans) got their "retiree visa" renewed recently although they have neither the required amount of money in the bank nor do they have an income of 65,000 Baht per month. there seem to be still some immigration officers who possess a heart.