water pump issues at night

[hamleknoi]

I know that there have been some other threads about pumps and I've read through some of them.

My issue is odd though. During the day, it sometimes cycles after longer periods of time briefly. I can accept this as it's not overly frequent and lasts for short periods of time.

Usually around 10pm-12am, it turns on frequently and runs for longer periods of time. Sometimes it turns off, sometimes it doesn't. It frequently runs for long periods of time and I've been forced to switch it off at the wall every night.

I've found that if I turn on the water full blast briefly in the nearby kitchen and then turn it off, the pump stops. So I don't think that it's a low pressure issue as I just released pressure and there was plenty.

The old plumbing isn't in use, there's indoor/outdoor plumbing running to the upstairs bathroom (where there's no leak), the downstairs kitchen, also no leak, and an outdoor bathroom right next to the pump that is also not leaking. I can't see a leak anywhere in the plumbing before or after the pump either. It's all external. The only thing leaking very slightly is the downstairs toilet, but it's at such a slow rate that it doesn't warrant turning on and staying on. I assume that's what causes the infrequent daytime short cycles. But it just doesn't make sense at night.

It's driving me mad! I'm tired of getting up to go to the kitchen to let out a burst of water to make it shut off, which it does immediately as soon as I turn off the tap, so I'm pretty sure that it's got enough pressure in the system.

Any ideas?

[ThaIrish Sean]

I read the title and thought it was something to do with old men getting up In the night to go to the toilet ????

[sezze]

Its a bit weird you are saying , but let me think .

It happens at night time , so basically , or its because lots of water being used before , or its cooling of everything , making all shrink . The long time running of the pump and makes me think of some kind of clogged filter/suction side and low water table in the tank .If you are sure there are no leaks , i would certainly check on that , meaning all the line from inside the tank all the way to pressure point ( you can backwash everything by using the mains to pressure side of pump reversing into tank ? ) .If that is a positive for being nice and clean , then its time to look further .

constant cycling on and off means leakage or defective bladder tank .

constant running means not reaching the final pressure , which can mean , dirt ( can be anywhere including in impeller ) or a defective pressure switch or a defective impeller .

The constant running thing , if you checked inside the line for dirt , you need to open impeller . It will show or dirt , and the state of it also . I am 100% guessing that that 1 is ok . So my final thought is defective pressure switch . Might be that water entered the electronic side . A few drops at the wrong place and the change of temp can do enough the give faulty contacts inside .

This is my guess what is wrong . Pumps are very simple devices , thats also why they can work for many years without problems . There is also not a lot of things which can go wrong . leaks in suction side can still be the case , but then again , leaks always have to be fixed , and unless it is big enough to get good notice in suction side , i don't think it is the case . There is a few electronics in , not complicated but weird things in 99.9% of the cases lead to electronics and not mechanical .

[Kwasaki]

Try fixing the leak in the toilet and see if it stops. 

If the pump primes on & off all the time maybe it needs a new pressure switch.

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, hamleknoi said:

Any ideas?

A slow leak at one of the many joints or outlets in your plumbing combined with a pump that has a fault. The fault in the pump may just be debris blocking a pressure switch, but more likely the pressure switch itself is worn or rusty. This means that a swift change in pressure will usually trigger it but a slower one sometimes doesn’t.

 

Cures;

 

Parts cannon for the pump: replace each pressure or flow switch; result - maybe stopping the long running if switches are actually the problem.

 

Plumbing: find where all the leaks are in the system; be careful just because you find a single leak and fix it does not mean that there are not more that you haven’t found yet; result - if you find them all and fix them the pump should not trigger spontaneously.

Edited January 3, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[Horatio Poke]

I have no solutions but can offer some food for thought.

 

If the system has no major leaks and no taps open then the pump running continually would build up huge pressure which would result in water squirting out from the joints and gaskets in the pump.  If that's not happening then I suggest that the pump is not drawing or pumping water at that time.  I can only guess as to why opening and closing a tap alters that......  But that would be my first line of investigation.

You could try closing any and all outlet valves from the pump at night and see if it still happens.  If it does then the problem is the pump/bore-hole not the distribution system - and if not, vice versa.

 

Pressure switches can be very problematic.  I would take a look at it.  Ants and other creatures sometimes invade switches causing huge problems.  I'd take a look at it and clean it up if possible.  If you're working on the pump be sure to disconnect it from the electric supply and release all pressure in it (open a tap when the electric supply is turned off) before working on it.

EDIT: Having just re-read the OP I wonder if the pump is drawing water from a bore-hole or the mains water supply.  If the latter then low/non-existent mains supply water pressure might be something to do with it.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Horatio Poke
Additional info

[kokesaat]

First thing I'd do is fix the 'small' toilet leak.

Then if the water is running for a long time, I'd go to each toilet and jiggle the handle to be sure the plunger isn't stuck in the open position.  We had a similar problem with water running at night....on occasion.....found out it was a plunger that didn't always seal.  Easy fix.

 

 

[Artisi]

Are pumping from a tank or off the main supply? 

[Saanim]

34 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Are pumping from a tank or off the main supply? 

Pumping off the main supply is not only dangerous (and selfish) for you and the neighbours but illegal...

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Pumping off the main supply is not only dangerous (and selfish) for you and the neighbours but illegal...

That I am fully aware of and fully understand the hydraulic reasoning behind it, but that doesn't stop people pumping off the main supply. 

So the question remains, pumping from a tank or off the main. 

[hamleknoi]

Thanks for the replies guys. Should've mentioned it before. I'm in Bangkok. It's a house that I'm renting, and the supply comes from the mains I assume as there's a hole in the wall where the pipe feeds from. There's enough pressure in there to feed downstairs, but not enough to make it upstairs.

All of the houses in the neighbourhood are like this. It's illegal?

[Artisi]

From what you said in the initial post is - possibly the mains pressure is low later at night and your house supply is leaking back into the main - needs a check valve (that actually checks) between the main and your pump inlet - as for pumping from the main - seems strange to me . Are you sure there is no holding tank between the main and your pump?

 

without knowing the full detail of what / how the system is configured, it's crystal ball gazing .

Edited January 4, 2022 by Artisi

[hamleknoi]

28 minutes ago, Artisi said:

From what you said in the initial post is - possibly the mains pressure is low later at night and your house supply is leaking back into the main - needs a check valve (that actually checks) between the main and your pump inlet - as for pumping from the main - seems strange to me . Are you sure there is no holding tank between the main and your pump?

 

without knowing the full detail of what / how the system is configured, it's crystal ball gazing .

That's what I concluded. A change in water pressure from the mains.

Pretty certain that there's no tank unless there's one underground which I doubt. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.

[hamleknoi]

OK so my handyman neighbour came back home after a bit of a holiday so I got him to take a look.

It looks like it was the toilet after all. water was overflowing into the overflow tube at a very slow pace in the reservoir. This was such a slow and small leak that I never considered it to be the source.

It's still baffling as to why this was a bigger issue at night time than in the day.

[Artisi]

Possibly mains pressure is higher during the night increasing the leak rate. 

[MrJ2U]

I had the same problem.

 

I was at my wits end!

 

Leaky toilet fixed,I added a shutoff valve to an adjacent water tank, pressure valve.

 

Nothing worked.

 

I kept imagining the extra electricity every month!

 

Finally replaced the pump and in close inspection there was like a hairline crack.  Just dribbling a little water.

 

I sent it to Hitachi in Bangkok.  I never heard back from them.  

 

Reminds me,. I better call them its been like two months.

 

New Hitachi is working great.  No ghost startups every 10 minutes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Adumbration]

clean or replace your foot valve.

[Artisi]

7 hours ago, Adumbration said:

clean or replace your foot valve.

What foot valve? 

[hamleknoi]

On 1/22/2022 at 9:26 AM, MrJ2U said:

I had the same problem.

 

I was at my wits end!

 

Leaky toilet fixed,I added a shutoff valve to an adjacent water tank, pressure valve.

 

Nothing worked.

 

I kept imagining the extra electricity every month!

 

Finally replaced the pump and in close inspection there was like a hairline crack.  Just dribbling a little water.

 

I sent it to Hitachi in Bangkok.  I never heard back from them.  

 

Reminds me,. I better call them its been like two months.

 

New Hitachi is working great.  No ghost startups every 10 minutes.

 

 

 

 

 

That pump looks a lot more heavy duty than mine. Mine's relatively new too, and the problem's been fixed so it was the tiny toilet leak at the end of it all, and I didn't think that such a small thing could cause such rapid cycling and constant running given that turning on a tap briedly doesn't even engage the pump. And the 'water hammer' effect that I used to turn it off by rapidly opening and closing a tap made me think that it was a pump problem not a tiny leak one. But now I've learnt my lesson. Anything is possible.

[MrJ2U]

3 hours ago, hamleknoi said:

That pump looks a lot more heavy duty than mine. Mine's relatively new too, and the problem's been fixed so it was the tiny toilet leak at the end of it all, and I didn't think that such a small thing could cause such rapid cycling and constant running given that turning on a tap briedly doesn't even engage the pump. And the 'water hammer' effect that I used to turn it off by rapidly opening and closing a tap made me think that it was a pump problem not a tiny leak one. But now I've learnt my lesson. Anything is possible.

Good for you.

 

Satisfying fixing something on your own.

 

Now I've got to fix a broken water pipe that was installed "in" the walls.

 

Enjoy your week!

 

[hamleknoi]

1 hour ago, MrJ2U said:

Good for you.

 

Satisfying fixing something on your own.

 

Now I've got to fix a broken water pipe that was installed "in" the walls.

 

Enjoy your week!

 

I put my handyman neighbour to work lol.

And just on time my aircon isn't airconning any more so the cycle of never-ending problems continues.

Good luck with that pipe that's a nightmare!

[MrJ2U]

4 hours ago, hamleknoi said:

I put my handyman neighbour to work lol.

And just on time my aircon isn't airconning any more so the cycle of never-ending problems continues.

Good luck with that pipe that's a nightmare!

Good luck with the air-conditioning.