Tying up loose ends

[Formaleins]

Anyone can help me out here with some advice? Married to a Thai lady and have a Thai / UK son. If I developed a terminal illness and wanted to make sure that the remaining family were taken care of - i.e, they have basically a monthly income for as long as the funds last, is this possible to do here?

 

For my example, if I transferred 7 million baht from the UK here into my bank on my death. How could I set up some sort of monthly payment of say 50K per month to my remaining family? But this would prevent anyone justdiving in and taking the lot?

 

Is there some way of setting up some sort of account that could pay them this every month without them using the death certificate to get hold of the entire lump sum?

 

For me, I want to bring the last of what I have in the UK over here and put into some sort of trust that pays them a monthly sum that cannot be challenged after death. But I also want to put in some sort of provision that if there was to be some sort of emergency, they could access a 1 off payment. possible or not?

 

Cannot really see that having it in a bank account would work as after death I would expect the next of kin could claim everything,

 

Any thoughts? I just want to make sure they have adequate funds every month with the proviso for one off emergency payments id needed, but also make sure that they are not able to donate 5 million to a temple or similar.

 

Thanks

[Paulaew]

I'm not a lawyer, so my comments are not legal advice. (When I fill out forms that request my occupation I always put "layman.")

 

My understanding is that there is no concept of trusts for individuals under Thai law. You can confirm that with a Thai lawyer.

 

If you want to set up a trust, you'll need to do it in the UK.

 

My own solution to the problem is to set up bi-annual disbursements from my US retirement funds. This scheme could be circumvented by my wife (the beneficiary) if she could figure it out. But since she couldn't figure it out, it works for me.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

 

 

[Formaleins]

6 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

I'm not a lawyer, so my comments are not legal advice. (When I fill out forms that request my occupation I always put "layman.")

 

My understanding is that there is no concept of trusts for individuals under Thai law. You can confirm that with a Thai lawyer.

 

If you want to set up a trust, you'll need to do it in the UK.

 

My own solution to the problem is to set up bi-annual disbursements from my US retirement funds. This scheme could be circumvented by my wife (the beneficiary) if she could figure it out. But since she couldn't figure it out, it works for me.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that - will look into it, I worried about involving lawyers over here, I just need some way of making sure whatever I leave is not drained overnight.

I wondered whether to try and do this from the UK side but thought it would be extremely complex for the communication from my remaining family to deal with.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Formaleins

[onthedarkside]

4 hours ago, Paulaew said:

My understanding is that there is no concept of trusts for individuals under Thai law. You can confirm that with a Thai lawyer.

You're correct. There is no legal framework in Thailand right now for trusts....

 

I'm actually interested in setting up the same kind of arrangement for my family, but haven't settled as yet on the best way to accomplish it.

 

One way, of course, is to use a lump sum of funds to buy an annuity with your survivor/survivors as the beneficiaries. But those have fees, and right now, with interest rates low, the rate of payout on the money you'd put into a annuity would be pretty low.

 

Another way, as mentioned, set up a legal trust in your home country. I know the U.S. supports them, and I assume the UK does too. That's probably going to involve retaining a lawyer to draft the necessary documents. And then, I believe, the trust still needs to have a future administrator/trustee who would be responsible for administering the trust, per your instructions, after your death.

 

In the U.S., I believe, the various major brokerage houses like Schwab and Fidelity have trust sections inhouse where they'll serve in that capacity if you designate them as such. And then they'd be the ones making sure that whatever designated amounts would be getting transferred to your beneficiary/beneficiaries on the scheduled basis.

 

In general, from my knowledge and experience here, the prospect of turning over a single large sump sum inheritance to a Thai wife or relatives as cash is likely to be a BAD idea, considering the very low level of financial sophistication that many ordinary Thais seem to have, not to mention to risks of greedy vulture friends and relations all descending on your suddenly rich beneficiaries in search of handouts.

 

For me, the notion of perhaps a lump sum payment to start and then some kind of payout schedule over time (while letting the bulk of the funds remain wisely invested until being drawn down) seems like it's going to be much better in the long run for providing financial security for your loved ones.

 

Brokerages like Schwab and Fidelity are well set up and familiar with handling international wire transfers. So there really wouldn't be any complexity for the recipients. The money simply would be wired into their Thai bank accounts as dictated by your trust. And with Bangkok Bank, right now, you can even send them free domestic wires to their NY branch, which will then forward them to designated Thai BKKB accounts for very small fees.

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

I recently created a trust in the US and listed my Thai daughter as beneficiary of saving accounts and  % of retirement, not sure about the monthly payouts. 

[BritManToo]

56 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

Anyone can help me out here with some advice?

My advice, don't trust any foreigners in Chiang Mai.

Any foreigner claiming to sell Insurance, Financial advice, Pension advice is working illegally.

Best to use someone in your home country, they're probably crooks as well, but at least the Brit government is watching them.

 

Hargreaves Lansdown seemed to be legit, but they don't deal with people who admit to living outside the UK. (The only Pension company that I used that never stole from me)

Edited January 8, 2022 by BritManToo

[Paulaew]

31 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

I wondered whether to try and do this from the UK side but thought it would be extremely complex for the communication from my remaining family to deal with.

Actually, this is a feature. It is exactly what you want. You set up the way the funds will be disbursed, and the family will get what you've set up.

 

Paul Laew

Edited January 8, 2022 by Paulaew
secret

[Paulaew]

27 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

In general, from my knowledge and experience here, the prospect of turning over a single large sump sum inheritance to a Thai wife or relatives as cash is likely to be a BAD idea, considering the very low level of financial sophistication that many ordinary Thais seem to have, not to mention to risks of greedy vulture friends and relations all descending on your suddenly rich beneficiaries in search of handouts.

Absolutely, this has to be avoided at all costs. Even my loving wife is likely to squander my life's savings in a year or two after I'm gone. You have to control how the funds are disbursed. I keep my retirement funds with Fidelity and I'm working with them on a disbursement schedule. They can be a big help if you can talk to the right person.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

Why not start dishing out the money now instead of waiting, just thinking out loud.

[Paulaew]

8 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Why not start dishing out the money now instead of waiting, just thinking out loud.

If you have a Thai family (maybe you do), you'll know that it's being dished out on a regular basis. Good helpings too.

 

The fact is, if you've invested wisely over the years, a retirement fund could last for 20 years or more, assuming 5-6% annual withdrawals and a reasonable rate of return (like 8%) in the market. That's financial security for a family if handled in the right way. That's what we would like to provide for our loved ones after we're gone. But the OP is right to be concerned about that happening.

 

Paul Laew

[Mac Mickmanus]

24 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

If you have a Thai family (maybe you do), you'll know that it's being dished out on a regular basis. Good helpings too.

 

The fact is, if you've invested wisely over the years, a retirement fund could last for 20 years or more, assuming 5-6% annual withdrawals and a reasonable rate of return (like 8%) in the market. That's financial security for a family if handled in the right way. That's what we would like to provide for our loved ones after we're gone. But the OP is right to be concerned about that happening.

 

Paul Laew

What places pay 8 % interest ?

[onthedarkside]

42 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

I keep my retirement funds with Fidelity and I'm working with them on a disbursement schedule. They can be a big help if you can talk to the right person.

 

It would be great if you could come back here and elaborate on that process with Fidelity, in terms of just what they want/need, how it's set up with them, the extent of options/choices that are available in terms of handling the payouts, etc etc....

 

Also, is your deal with Fidelity going to be via creating a legal U.S. trust, or, they have some means of handling structured payouts to your beneficiaries after you're deceased without going the trust route?

 

 

 

[onthedarkside]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

What places pay 8 % interest ?

 

I think the mention was regarding an 8% overall rate of return on a retirement fund, which includes the element of capital appreciation as well as dividends, interest, etc.  Over the long term, a retirement fund invested in the stock market in the U.S. should on average be earning at least that kind of an overall rate of return, although there are periods when the cap appreciation is much higher, and then other periods where values have nosedived.

 

[onthedarkside]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I recently created a trust in the US and listed my Thai daughter as beneficiary of saving accounts and  % of retirement, not sure about the monthly payouts. 

 Did you also have to designate an administrator/trustee of the trust who would be in charge of it after your passing?  And if so, what kind of person/entity did you choose for that?

[EVENKEEL]

4 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

 

It would be great if you could come back here and elaborate on that process with Fidelity, in terms of just what they want/need, how it's set up with them, the extent of options/choices that are available in terms of handling the payouts, etc etc....

 

Also, is your deal with Fidelity going to be via creating a legal U.S. trust, or, they have some means of handling structured payouts to your beneficiaries after you're deceased without going the trust route?

 

 

 

I just made a trust in the US. The retirement funds aren't part of the trust. They are listed but separate I believe. The account with invested savings is part of the trust as are my bank accounts and real estate.

[Paulaew]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

What places pay 8 % interest ?

The S&P 500 index has returned an average of about 10.5% per year since its inception in 1957 through 2021.  You can purchase an S&P 500 mutual fund or ETF through any brokerage. Yes, there will be down years in the market, but last year the return on the S&P 500 was 26.9%.

 

Paul Laew

[EVENKEEL]

1 minute ago, onthedarkside said:

 Did you also have to designate an administrator/trustee of the trust who would be in charge of it after your passing?  And if so, what kind of person/entity did you choose for that?

Yes, I picked a trustee, family member.

[Formaleins]

1 hour ago, onthedarkside said:

You're correct. There is no legal framework in Thailand right now for trusts....

 

I'm actually interested in setting up the same kind of arrangement for my family, but haven't settled as yet on the best way to accomplish it.

 

One way, of course, is to use a lump sum of funds to buy an annuity with your survivor/survivors as the beneficiaries. But those have fees, and right now, with interest rates low, the rate of payout on the money you'd put into a annuity would be pretty low.

 

Another way, as mentioned, set up a legal trust in your home country. I know the U.S. supports them, and I assume the UK does too. That's probably going to involve retaining a lawyer to draft the necessary documents. And then, I believe, the trust still needs to have a future administrator/trustee who would be responsible for administering the trust, per your instructions, after your death.

 

In the U.S., I believe, the various major brokerage houses like Schwab and Fidelity have trust sections inhouse where they'll serve in that capacity if you designate them as such. And then they'd be the ones making sure that whatever designated amounts would be getting transferred to your beneficiary/beneficiaries on the scheduled basis.

 

In general, from my knowledge and experience here, the prospect of turning over a single large sump sum inheritance to a Thai wife or relatives as cash is likely to be a BAD idea, considering the very low level of financial sophistication that many ordinary Thais seem to have, not to mention to risks of greedy vulture friends and relations all descending on your suddenly rich beneficiaries in search of handouts.

 

For me, the notion of perhaps a lump sum payment to start and then some kind of payout schedule over time seems like it's going to be much better in the long run for providing financial security for your loved ones.

 

Brokerages like Schwab and Fidelity are well set up and familiar with handling international wire transfers. So there really wouldn't be any complexity for the recipients. The money simply would be wired into their Thai bank accounts as dictated by your trust. And with Bangkok Bank, right now, you can even send them free domestic wires to their NY branch, which will then forward them to designated Thai BKKB accounts for very small fees.

 

 

What worries me is that oncw you die, they can overide your wishes once they get the death certificate which will give them total control and what you put in place is ignored.

Got to look into setting this sort of thing up from the home country tather than hanfing over control to the Thai legal sysyem

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

What worries me is that oncw you die, they can overide your wishes once they get the death certificate which will give them total control and what you put in place is ignored.

Got to look into setting this sort of thing up from the home country tather than hanfing over control to the Thai legal sysyem

 

No. If you set up a legal trust in your home country that covers your various financial assets, those after your death are administered by the trustee you designate while you're alive, and the trustee is legally bound to follow the instructions you establish in the trust.

 

The beneficiary or beneficiaries have no say or control over that, or any ability to challenge or change those terms.

 

Just make sure you pick the correct trustee (ideally NOT a Thai beneficiary), ideally a disinterested neutral third party, someone who can be relied upon to faithfully execute the terms of your trust in your home country.

Edited January 8, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Formaleins]

Thanks for all the suggestions, a lot of options to look at....probably try yo go down the UK route rather than bring too much over here

[Airalee]

8 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

What worries me is that oncw you die, they can overide your wishes once they get the death certificate which will give them total control and what you put in place is ignored.

Got to look into setting this sort of thing up from the home country tather than hanfing over control to the Thai legal sysyem

I too have thought about the whole issue and have to comment that although what you have written is something that I too have thought of, what really worries me is that when I’m at the age where I can’t take care of myself, will they let me rot in my own feces (I’ve read some horrible stories about elder abuse of Farangs here in thailand) barely feeding me so that they can “save money” in the end?

 

Not only would I want some sort of trust set up so they can’t burn through the money in a “Weekend at Vegas” kind of way, but have it also be conditional on there not being any kind of abuse or neglect if I ended up with something like Alzheimer’s in the future.

[fredscats]

Do not register your death,OAP  (if u have one),standing order Transferwise into Thai bank, of course if not frozen

[Paulaew]

4 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I too have thought about the whole issue and have to comment that although what you have written is something that I too have thought of, what really worries me is that when I’m at the age where I can’t take care of myself, will they let me rot in my own feces (I’ve read some horrible stories about elder abuse of Farangs here in thailand) barely feeding me so that they can “save money” in the end?

 

Not only would I want some sort of trust set up so they can’t burn through the money in a “Weekend at Vegas” kind of way, but have it also be conditional on there not being any kind of abuse or neglect if I ended up with something like Alzheimer’s in the future.

This is a harder problem, I think. There are "Living Wills" in Thailand which provide instructions specifying what actions should be taken in the event that you are no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity. These Living Wills usually specify your request that you be allowed to die instead of being kept alive by artificial means. I don't know what else could be included in such a document, you would need to consult a lawyer here.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

[Airalee]

6 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

This is a harder problem, I think. There are "Living Wills" in Thailand which provide instructions specifying what actions should be taken in the event that you are no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity. These Living Wills usually specify your request that you be allowed to die instead of being kept alive by artificial means. I don't know what else could be included in such a document, you would need to consult a lawyer here.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

Definitely a harder problem.  I’m not worried about being kept alive by artificial means because I too would have a DNR stipulation so that the healthcare industrial complex doesn’t steal any potential estate from my heirs.  But I remember living in Chiangmai and not only did I read about a Farang who was found in a bed full of urine and feces when an old friend went to check on him, but also have witnessed numerous times where an elderly (80+) Farang was being abused (quite obviously) in public by their younger wife.  
 

I’m not sure how I’ll handle it all myself then the time comes.  Most likely suicide while I’m still capable and let whoever inherits my estate do with it what they wish.

[Guest Isaanlife]

1 hour ago, Paulaew said:

Absolutely, this has to be avoided at all costs. Even my loving wife is likely to squander my life's savings in a year or two after I'm gone. You have to control how the funds are disbursed. I keep my retirement funds with Fidelity and I'm working with them on a disbursement schedule. They can be a big help if you can talk to the right person.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

Very smart thinking and planning. In her best interest to do this.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

51 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I’m not sure how I’ll handle it all myself then the time comes.  Most likely suicide while I’m still capable and let whoever inherits my estate do with it what they wish.

The type of trusts we're talking about here ONLY give control over your finances to someone else (your successor trustee) AFTER you've passed (unless you wish otherwise). While you're still alive, you would want to remain the trustee of your own trust and retain complete control over everything in it.

 

I went thru this with my own father, who had a trust for his assets, when he passed away last year. He was the sole trustee of his own trust while he was alive, and I was the designated beneficiary of his trust. While still living, he also designated me to be his successor trustee that would take effect once he passed away.

 

While he was alive, I had absolutely no control over or say in what happened with his trust. But upon his death, I became the trustee of his trust, and was then legally responsible for allocating his inheritance to his designated beneficiary, which he had chosen to be me.

 

PS -- Leaving the typical Thai (including a Thai wife) as the beneficiary of any sizable estate outside Thailand seems to me to be a very bad idea, especially if that Thai person has never lived in your home country for an extended period and come to understand life and finances there.

 

The typical domestic Thai isn't going to be familiar with or understand the legalities of such things in the U.S., UK or wherever. There could be language barriers, communication problems, etc etc.

 

I, as an American, had to handle the disposition of all my father's different bank accounts and such in the U.S. after his passing. And the banks and various other financial entities don't make it especially easy, even when, as in our case, there were no legal will/probate complexities and everything was pre-designated as POD (Payable on Death) to designated beneficiaries. The POD process being one that can bypass legal probate in the U.S.

 

Having gone thru it from Thailand with my father who died in the U.S., I wouldn't wish that kind of process on my Thai wife here at all. If I ended up leaving that kind of thing solely in her hands after my death, I'm afraid she'd give up on the whole thing and never get a dime of my estate held outside Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Airalee]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The type of trusts we're talking about here ONLY give control over your finances to someone else (your successor trustee) AFTER you've passed (unless you wish otherwise). While you're still alive, you would want to remain the trustee of your own trust and retain complete control over everything in it.

 

I went thru this with my own father, who had a trust for his assets, when he passed away last year. He was the sole trustee of his own trust while he was alive, and I was the designated beneficiary of his trust. While still living, he also designated me to be his successor trustee that would take effect once he passed away.

 

While he was alive, I had absolutely no control over or say in what happened with his trust. But upon his death, I became the trustee of his trust, and was then legally responsible for allocating his inheritance to his designated beneficiary, which he had chosen to be me.

 

I understand what you’re saying.  I just want some sort of poison pill in my trust so that the beneficiary has some obligations before they inherit my estate and if not followed, then they get nothing.  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I understand what you’re saying.  I just want some sort of poison pill in my trust so that the beneficiary has some obligations before they inherit my estate and if not followed, then they get nothing.  

You're in complete control of your trust while you're alive. If you don't like the way someone is treating you in your latter years, you can (have your home country attorney who set up your trust) simply write them out of your trust, and they'll get nothing, if you so desire.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Airalee]

26 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

You're in complete control of your trust while you're alive. If you don't like the way someone is treating you in your latter years, you can (have your home country attorney who set up your trust) simply write them out of your trust, and they'll get nothing, if you so desire.

 

 

Yes…but what happens in the event of Alzheimer’s or something like that?  I too understand how trusts work as I’m currently dealing with it too.

 

I also agree with what you say about the difficulty regarding assets outside Thailand and the accessibility issues that a “typical domestic Thai” will have.  But, sometimes, the amounts involved would be too great to trust to the Thai financial system imho.  YMMV.

 

I too have recently had to deal with my late fathers estate and even though it didn’t need to go through probate in the US, it was still a PITA to deal with (and is ongoing).  So I understand completely what you say in your edited comment that you wouldn’t wish your Thai wife to have to go through the headache of it all.

 

It’s a tough situation.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Airalee

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, Airalee said:

Yes…but what happens in the event of Alzheimer’s or something like that?

Ya, there are all kinds of potential issues. In the U.S., I believe, a trust can have co-trustees... For a time, my father and mother were co-trustees of their trust while she was alive, and then he became the sole trustee onward until his death.

 

But I'm not clear, in a co-trustees situation (assuming you had someone else you could trust like an attorney or non-beneficiary entity like a brokerage house), whether the co-trustee can act unilaterally (say in a situation where you had become indisposed), or whether that kind of situation requires the consent of both.