ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Gweiloman]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Being able to accelerate from 0 to 100 kmh is a capability that gives some indication of what else the car can do.

 

Using full power accelerating away from a standstill is completely different from using full power at 80 km an hour to overtake. In this latter situation, you could probably use a lot more power without any risk or it appearing overdramatic.

 

Drivers like power, it’s not a theory, it’s a fact.
 

Manufacturers are just catering to what the public want.

Correct. A lot of the roads I drive on are single lanes with bends. Being able to overtake quickly at lower speeds are much safer when one has a vehicle with instant torque and not needing to wait for the car to “downshift”.

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Correct. A lot of the roads I drive on are single lanes with bends. Being able to overtake quickly at lower speeds are much safer when one has a vehicle with instant torque and not needing to wait for the car to “downshift”.

Agree with the consensus, more power is good.  Even the MG ZS EV, far from a performance car (@ 8+ secs to 100 kph), passes safer & quickly, with the instant hp & torque.  And I drive in 'ECO' mode 

 

ZS EV vs ICEV, 8+ secs vs 12+ secs makes a huge difference when passing.  Again, more the instant hp & torque.  None of that hp @ XXXX rpm BS.  As noted, on smaller roads, it frees up congestion of tailgaters, which forces drivers to pass 2 or 3 vehicles at time, creating a hazard.

 

Actually makes taking smaller roads, faster if running parallel to main roads, and frees up congesting on the main roads.   Also makes for a more scenic and pleasurable drive.

[Lacessit]

An interesting read from an Australian publication:

 

https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/life/auto/2024/12/15/ev-batteries-new-research?

[KhunLA]

BEV ... range range range ... best answer

 

 

[Pib]

 

@KhunLA

If I remember right you have a MG ZS EV.  If so from looking at it's charging curve from 89% to 100% it has a low and rapidly decreasing charging rate to 100%.  By the time it gets to 95% it down to a 11KW rate and then to 6KW just before reaching 100%.  That is not quick.   Now my Atto has a has a charge rate of 32KW from 85% to 99% and the final 1% is at 16KW.

 

 

MG ZS EV Charging Curve

https://evkx.net/models/mg/zs/zs_ev_standard_range/chargingcurve/

 

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

 

@KhunLA

If I remember right you have a MG ZS EV.  If so from looking at it's charging curve from 89% to 100% it has a low and rapidly decreasing charging rate to 100%.  By the time it gets to 95% it down to a 11KW rate and then to 6KW just before reaching 100%.  That is not quick.   Now my Atto has a has a charge rate of 32KW from 85% to 99% and the final 1% is at 16KW.

 

 

MG ZS EV Charging Curve

https://evkx.net/models/mg/zs/zs_ev_standard_range/chargingcurve/

 

That's not our experience.  Their range chart is way off also.

 

When we can do 90 kph, rare, but 2 stretches, we can do it consistently, PKK - Pranburi & Pkk - Chumphon.

 

We average about 14kWh/100kms +/-, nothing like 18kWh/100kms

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

11 hours ago, Pib said:

 

@KhunLA

If I remember right you have a MG ZS EV.  If so from looking at it's charging curve from 89% to 100% it has a low and rapidly decreasing charging rate to 100%.  By the time it gets to 95% it down to a 11KW rate and then to 6KW just before reaching 100%.  That is not quick.   Now my Atto has a has a charge rate of 32KW from 85% to 99% and the final 1% is at 16KW.

 

 

MG ZS EV Charging Curve

https://evkx.net/models/mg/zs/zs_ev_standard_range/chargingcurve/

 

That’s a great site right there, some useful information, but i would hasten to say it can’t be taken as verboten !!

 

For example my Seal doesn’t react how stated on the chart, it stays at the same kw level ( depending upon charger speed ) usually 44 kw right up until 99% then drops down gradually 10kw at a time over around 1 minute with a message that the battery is conditioning ( or something like that, i don’t remember exactly )

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

That’s a great site right there, some useful information, but i would hasten to say it can’t be taken as verboten !!

 

For example my Seal doesn’t react how stated on the chart, it stays at the same kw level ( depending upon charger speed ) usually 44 kw right up until 99% then drops down gradually 10kw at a time over around 1 minute with a message that the battery is conditioning ( or something like that, i don’t remember exactly )

 

 

 

 

 

I did an 'unscientific' test of kWh per minute, and simply timed the % upticks by minute, and very consistent, up to 90+%, then at ~95%, drops off significantly.   The ZS agreeing as the estimated finish time keeps moving, longer.

 

That last 5% can take 15-20 minutes.  We are also sitting in the car with the AC on, at the finishing up point.  AC is usually on the whole time at CS, as wife, dog and or myself are in the car almost all the time.  Rare the AC is every off, and only if using PEA and there's a provided AC sitting area.

 

I am surprised the site is so far off, on the kWh / 100 kms rating.   As rarely do we exceed 14kWh / 100 kms.  Even @ 14, that's 330 kms range per charge, using 46.3kWh as useable capacity, and exceeds WLTP's 320 rating.  That's highway speeds, 90 kph when possible.  110 ish when allowed, and balanced by stopping for cross traffic and slow traffic.   On longer journeys, if we average 80 kph, over 3+ hrs, then we're happy.

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

That’s a great site right there, some useful information, but i would hasten to say it can’t be taken as verboten !!

 

For example my Seal doesn’t react how stated on the chart, it stays at the same kw level ( depending upon charger speed ) usually 44 kw right up until 99% then drops down gradually 10kw at a time over around 1 minute with a message that the battery is conditioning ( or something like that, i don’t remember exactly )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have a Seal RWD which is the charging curve chart you include in your post above?   Or, do you have a Seal AWD which has a different charging curve as shown below?    And notice the chart below shows a 45-46KW charging rate up to 98%  like you are showing almost the same at 44kW at 99%....so, that's why I'm asking if maybe you have a Seal AWD.

 

Additionally, from my experience of using the ReverSharger DC chargers over 5 dozen times since early August in getting free electrons and using OBD2 data which shows charging percentage to a tenth of a percent once reaching 98.5% per OBD2 data readout which will be a 99% readout on your EV's display the vehicle charging curve can deviate quite a bit from charge to charge.  In fact if you started the current DC charge from a higher SoC say over 90% then when you get to around 98% display on the vehicle it can jump right to 100% because the charging percentage indicator gets confused/recalibrates itself...I've notice this several times on my Atto at the ReverSharger because If I drive by one that has an open slot I will pull-in an top-up...even if my SoC is at 90% or a little more....get those free electrons whenever I can without queuing.

 

Yea, the charging rate during the last couple of percent can appear quite a bit different than the last time you charged depending on SoC starting from, temperature of battery, SoC percent indicator getting confused, etc.   But unless there has been an OTA update changing the battery's BMS charging curve the rest of the curve should follow pretty close "assuming" the charger you are using can provide whatever amount of KW is being requested by the EV.  But if at a charger that can't provide the power level being requested then of course the curve wouldn't match....the curves shown at that website is based on using high power DC chargers that can provide whatever amount the EV requests.  

 

Charging Curve for Seal AWD

https://evkx.net/models/byd/seal/seal_awd/chargingcurve/

[Pib]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

That's not our experience.  Their range chart is way off also.

 

When we can do 90 kph, rare, but 2 stretches, we can do it consistently, PKK - Pranburi & Pkk - Chumphon.

 

We average about 14kWh/100kms +/-, nothing like 18kWh/100kms

 

 

My post/chart was talking "charging rate"; not range.  And you did say in earlier posts that your MG ZS EV charged very slowly at a higher SoC.

 

And regarding range estimates that website does its range tests under specific, controlled, repeatable conditions which us humans driving on real life roads can not duplicate as everybody's driving area, habits, conditions, etc., vary quite a bit.

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

35 minutes ago, Pib said:

Do you have a Seal RWD which is the charging curve chart you include in your post above? 

Yes.

 

 

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Yes.

 

 

Then maybe an OTA update has made the RWD BMS and AWD BMS same-same.

[KhunLA]

49 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

My post/chart was talking "charging rate"; not range.  And you did say in earlier posts that your MG ZS EV charged very slowly at a higher SoC.

 

And regarding range estimates that website does its range tests under specific, controlled, repeatable conditions which us humans driving on real life roads can not duplicate as everybody's driving area, habits, conditions, etc., vary quite a bit.

 

Notice the charts charging start level is way below where we start.  Usually ~30% +/- 5%, and usually on the + side of 30%.

 

3+ hours on first leg, hopefully, and ~250 ish kms.  Usually with a 70-100 kms reserve at that point.

 

We usually charge in the 30% - 90/95% when O&A.

 

There chart seem to be starting at 10% ... 

We're rare if ever below 20% when O&A, (once), and only near 10% when doing an equalization.  

 

[Pib]

After having my Atto with 60.5KWH battery now for almost 14 months/28,000km one thing has been obvious to me that during cooler weather I get approx 10% better range.  We are now in the cooler part of the Thailand seasons and I've already seen this range increase just like I saw 14 months ago when first got my Atto in late Oct 2023 just before the cool season began.  Having now driven the car over a full year I have experienced all the seasons...the varying temperature and humidity throughout a whole year.

 

Why approx 10% better range in cooler weather you may ask?  Well, it not due to the traction battery retaining less juice in hot weather/summer weather as a traction battery typically can add a few percent more more KWH around 40C than at it's 25C factory rated power.  But it's because of the electric A/C usage. 

 

The "electric-power" A/C compressor doesn't have to work as hard/use as much juice in cooler weather to keep your EV cool as compared to hot weather like in the summer.    Monitoring precise OBD2 data and just watching the KW usage on the EV's display during the summer months and if the car has been setting in an unshaded parking location when you first start the EV they electric A/C is going to pull a LOT more KW than after 15 minutes or so when it's been able to cool down the cabin.   But even after it has initially cooled down during hot weather it still takes more KW to keep the cabin cool as you drive along as the sun beats thru your tinted windows. 

 

I've seen my Atto whose A/C I set at 22C pull up to 4KW in hot weather when starting the EV after it's been setting in a mall parking lot with no shade....just a HOT car cabin.   After after starting the EV and driving off it can be 15 minutes or more before the electric A/C is now pulling only around 2-3KW at EV at idle like at a stop light.   

 

Now during the cool part of they year initialing cooling off a hot car cabin and keeping it cool while you drive takes a very significant less amount of electric A/C power.    Heck, in cooler weather you can actually be at idle with A/C at 22C and you EV display can show 0 (zero) Kw usage but since on BYD models the Kw displayed rounds "down" to the whole number you could really be pulling 0.99Kw per OBD2 readout but the BYD would display 0KW....can kinda deceive a person.  You could be displaying 1Kw but actually be pulling 1.99Kw (almost double for what the display shows)....displaying 2Kw but could be pulling up to 2.99Kw....etc.  

 

During the cooler part of the year I can easily achieve 420Km real world driving range, which is the Atto's WLTP rating, and even up to around 442Kw real world range if not driving above 90KmH and not in stop-and-go city traffic....just driving very economically.  But come the "hot, high humidity"  time of the year I only get around 390-400Km real world range no matter how easy...how economically I drive.

 

[JBChiangRai]

On holiday over Xmas in Phu Quoc.

 

We took 2 grab taxis,  Toyota Veloz out 20km and a Mitsubishi Xpander back to the hotel.

 

The Toyota was a noisy piece of crap with horrible plastics, the Mitsubishi was quieter and more spacious but still a massively inferior option to any BYD model.

 

The Japanese are a generation behind the Chinese in all variants, ICE or EV.