The day the cows came home.

[up2you2]

What goes around comes around, this is what my professional photographer friend sent me, and my reply to it:

I have now discovered how Mac gets you by the balls.. I discovered this some time ago.
Their kit is really good, well made and lasts a fair time. This is not good for a regular turnover, so they keep changing things.
Little changes.. like software security updates which are essential, but not available for seriously old computers. The chips won't run them.
Then there's the plugs.. my real bug bear.. this old computer as 2 USB's, Firewire 400, Firewire 800, headphone 3,5 jack, and ethernet socket, not to mention one for the external monitor,  a CD slot and CF card slot.
My later MacBookPro (2011) has a Firewire 800 plug, ethernet, 2 USB's, 3,5jack and a thunderbolt socket, along with CD and SD card socket. I have to use a 'dongle' adaptor for the 400 to 800 socket for my camera. I bought several as no dongle, no work.
Morag's MacBookPro (2015) has 2 USB's, Thunderbolt, SD slot, 3,5 jack  and not a lot more. No CD burner/player. <deleted> all.
The latest Model, really fast etc, has newly designed USB sockets, no 3,5 jack (same as the new iPhones)
So dongles have to be bought just to plug headphones in, along with adaptors for the USB plugs.

They call this progress. That's why I stick with my old equipment and make it last. In addition my old software won't work on the new systems, so there goes my old photoshop which I just happen to like using. The new one is totally changed, and cannot be bought, only leased monthly.

I get fed up with this. Just down to my iPad.. and even the newest version does not have a 3,5 jack. The very flash folding keyboard now costs more than the iPad..

The old PC laptop from Carolyn is in good nick. She takes after me and looks after her kit. I only want it for some flying software, not much else. A whole new system and as I'm getting old I no longer have the patience or desire to learn a new system, even when it's cheaper.

Madness

My reply:

Really interesting reading your Mac synopsis, by the balls and then some.
Of course you are coming from a work/professional user, and that is where they really locked on to the fact, that not only were you joining their religion, but any thoughts of leaving would be simple be terminal, as far as your career would be concerned.
Frightening really, but they are the Pied Piper, you nothing more than a disciple, not on the road to Nazareth but Armageddon.

Of course you'll tell me you had no choice, those were the days when the writing came off the wall.
Hook, line and sinker, lemmings over a cliff, they sucked you all in in good faith, and now not only are you beholden to them, but worship them on the high altar.
Basically you were sold a pup, a car where the steering wheel has simple dissolved over time.
Huge and vast capital outlays, too good to be true, that only now are those in the industry waking up to this nightmare, that not only is analogue way preferable, but doesn't cost a king's ransom to produce.
Bitter - yes, you have every right to be.

[sometimewoodworker]

Humm…

No mention that virtually all computers have a similar decay model.

Neither is there a mention that you can continue to use the old software and OS for many more years than an equivalent Win machine.

 

It’s true that professional users will need to upgrade equipment and software at a much faster rate to stay competitive but of course their income stream already has that priced in, and is equally true on the windows side, so nothing unique about that.

 

For the professional photographer his head seems to be in the sand. He seems to overlook the even faster progress in photography. Few of his colleagues will use film, the digital files are getting bigger and bigger, the post photography processing is moving forward at such a speed that he needs the latest hardware and software to deal with his ballooning file sizes. His historic Photoshop program may still work with new file sizes but at a glacial speed.

 

Bitter? It’s good when it’s a British pint, but silly when talking about technology.
 

The lifespan of professional tech is closer to a mouse, shorter than humming bird and much less than a dog 

[kingstonkid]

The big difference between PC and MAC is simple actually.  

 

If you want more power larger hard drive or anything with a PC you simply upgrade it.  Best example ofcourse is MB or video

 

Unfortunatley you can not do the same with a Mac as everything is proprietarey and no one is bulding the parts.

 

MACs used to be good for a lot of things but i would suggest that with the upgrades that PC mnufacturers have made there is not a lot of difference.

 

Most of the software that you runon a MAC is avaialble or a comparable product is available.

 

Much as WINDOWS AND WORD used to be the only thing that companies used for documents you are now seeing many others that are cheaper providing the same features.

[Gottfrid]

Is everything as it should be in this thread? I got scared after reading the headline.

[Speedhump]

With a PC you can build the EXACT spec you want, with the fastest/best kit from the manufacturers who specialise in each component. I don't see any comparison with Apple. 

[sometimewoodworker]

21 minutes ago, Speedhump said:

With a PC you can build the EXACT spec you want, with the fastest/best kit from the manufacturers who specialise in each component. I don't see any comparison with Apple. 

And along with that comes the borderline, or on occasions total, incompatibility of the parts. This is something that never happens with apple kit as there is only 1 supplier for the OS and hardware.

 

There is also, at the moment, the complete revolution in the CPU field that means that most apple M1 kit is vastly more capable than anything shipping for windows.

 

There are very few people who build custom PCs and for those few windows or Linux is most likely the best choice.

 

The vast majority are not interested in the tech and want a machine to do a job, be it video rendering, e-mail, office tasks, etc. for them, apart from the higher end video producers who probably need Macs to stay competitive, the advantage of one system over another is much less clear. For the neophyte Mac has the edge as the lifespan of equipment is longer and the system has fewer rough edges. For the long time windows user the pain of switching is probably not worth the benefit. For the long term Mac user there are few if any big reasons to switch.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

And along with that comes the borderline, or on occasions total, incompatibility of the parts. This is something that never happens with apple kit as there is only 1 supplier for the OS and hardware.

 

There is also, at the moment, the complete revolution in the CPU field that means that most apple M1 kit is vastly more capable than anything shipping for windows.

 

There are very few people who build custom PCs and for those few windows or Linux is most likely the best choice.

 

The vast majority are not interested in the tech and want a machine to do a job, be it video rendering, e-mail, office tasks, etc. for them, apart from the higher end video producers who probably need Macs to stay competitive, the advantage of one system over another is much less clear. For the neophyte Mac has the edge as the lifespan of equipment is longer and the system has fewer rough edges. For the long time windows user the pain of switching is probably not worth the benefit. For the long term Mac user there are few if any big reasons to switch.

???? My alder lake from intel is 1.5 times faster then the Apple m1 kit. So stop acting that apple is fastest or better it is not it lost out.

[GrandPapillon]

The M1 might look better on paper, but the overbloated UI of MacOS X will kill any improvement in speed

 

Windows 11 is copying Mac playbook btw, the MS Indian CEO is learning fast ????

[sometimewoodworker]

27 minutes ago, robblok said:

???? My alder lake from intel is 1.5 times faster then the Apple m1 kit. So stop acting that apple is fastest or better it is not it lost out.

It may be until it gets strangled by overheating due to its insatiable thirst for power, and then even though it’s just shipping now its a year behind the proven M1s with the next generation Apple chips coming along shortly. There are disagreements over the 1.5X faster 1.1 ~ 1.2 are more the case and the prices?

 

Don't forget the vast majority of M1 machines are not the pro level ones yet  value for money is there any competition?

 

How much power does it require and for how long can it run at maximum? Hint the current apple chips are at about 39W vs? 250W~330W?

So if you like a 747 on your lap?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[robblok]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

It may be until it gets strangled by overheating due to its insatiable thirst for power, and then even though it’s just shipping now its a year behind the proven M1s with the next generation Apple chips coming along shortly.

 

How much power does it require and for how long can it run at maximum? Hint the current apple chips are at about 39W vs? 250W~330W?

So if you like a 747 on your lap?

 

 

Its not a laptop, so comparison is not 100% but intel will come with mobile version too. Anyway apple lovers are always funny. You say incompatibility while that is not an issue if you assemble things. I build my computer myself. Made sure things are compatible.

 

If your happy paying top price for something that can be had cheaper. Apple is a ripoff and it strangles the user. Phones and computers. Sorry big apple hater here after having used their products for a while. Android and intel rules. 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Sorry big apple hater here after having used their products for a while. Android and intel rules. 

So why are you here? 

[treetops]

[robblok]

38 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So why are you here? 

Because i was reading about a valid complaint of an apple user and right away you started to defend apple. So its ok to defend them but not attack them.

 

Sorry really dislike the whole apple enviroment. its good someone like my mom (who just can't operate computers) but otherwise im not a fan of it. I still remember all the problems i had trying to migrate from it.

 

Apple is just not fun, it makes sure that you can't migrate like the user said it locks you up and makes you pay to much. But I do have a macbook (but formatted it and put windows on it) so im not totally against them just how they operate. 

[Gottfrid]

Ok, I understand this now. First, how many cows came home?

If only 2 cows, I would generally go for a Mac. If 3 or more, that will definitely lean to a better choice of a PC.

 

Just to get it all right, so you can be safe in your choice, can you please give me the names and gender of each cows as that is very relevant regarding your choice?

[Lacessit]

I'm not a high-end user, a PC loaded with a Linux OS is all I need. I jettisoned the Microsoft abortions almost a decade ago.

To me, the Mac mystique seems to be centred around computers as a fashion statement. And fashions change.

[Adumbration]

I bet the OP has an iPhone also.

 

[GrandPapillon]

to be fair, the Apple machines are not that expensive, and they are good value for the quality, and at par with high-end PCs

 

the issue is not the hardware, Apple always excelled there,

 

no the real issue is their crappy UI and their crappy OS, full of stupid "features" and "apps" nobody ever use

[Sticky Rice Balls]

6 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

Mac fans are gullible idiots, they fully deserve their demises ????

Linux for the Win!!!!

[JetsetBkk]

6 hours ago, Speedhump said:

With a PC you can build the EXACT spec you want, with the fastest/best kit from the manufacturers who specialise in each component. I don't see any comparison with Apple. 

I've done that twice. I'm still using the XP machine (2012) for email, etc, but the Windows 10 machine (2019) is better for editing videos.

I'm getting too old/lazy to build another. The next will probably be a top spec. shop-built one.

[Speedhump]

6 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

And along with that comes the borderline, or on occasions total, incompatibility of the parts. This is something that never happens with apple kit as there is only 1 supplier for the OS and hardware.

 

There is also, at the moment, the complete revolution in the CPU field that means that most apple M1 kit is vastly more capable than anything shipping for windows.

 

There are very few people who build custom PCs and for those few windows or Linux is most likely the best choice.

 

The vast majority are not interested in the tech and want a machine to do a job, be it video rendering, e-mail, office tasks, etc. for them, apart from the higher end video producers who probably need Macs to stay competitive, the advantage of one system over another is much less clear. For the neophyte Mac has the edge as the lifespan of equipment is longer and the system has fewer rough edges. For the long time windows user the pain of switching is probably not worth the benefit. For the long term Mac user there are few if any big reasons to switch.

I've been using, occasionally building and always tinkering with PCs since 1996, incompatiblity of 'parts' has honestly never affected me, never had to return something that didn't work. I built my current gaming rig around 7 years ago (OK, getting lazy nowadays, I gave the spec to a shop and they assembled it) - it still handles every 2021-2022 high-end, graphics-intensive game I've tried, and seems pretty future proof for a while yet. So, highly cost effective. I also am highly doubtful of the truth now of the old claim that Macs really are better for graphics work.  Macs are for computer dummies (OK, you say neophytes), who work alone without benefit of IT knowledge, and so need to pay a fortune for machines that do the job for a few years then need to be dumped. Said customers also usually drool over buying a ridiculously-priced new iPhone every year! ???? Slaves to a brand, their choice, no skin off my nose if they're happy. I bought a Mac in around 2005-6 and also an iPhone once, just to try. It was enough. 

[Speedhump]

38 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

I've done that twice. I'm still using the XP machine (2012) for email, etc, but the Windows 10 machine (2019) is better for editing videos.

I'm getting too old/lazy to build another. The next will probably be a top spec. shop-built one.

Exactly what I did for my current rig. Specified the kit and let them do the job. All good except a couple of the many USB ports on the case they didn't hook up, soon rectified. I'm also getting lazy. ????

[Speedhump]

2 hours ago, Adumbration said:

I bet the OP has an iPhone also.

 

New one every year. 

[mrwebb8825]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:26 AM, up2you2 said:

What goes around comes around, this is what my professional photographer friend sent me, and my reply to it:

I have now discovered how Mac gets you by the balls.. I discovered this some time ago.
Their kit is really good, well made and lasts a fair time. This is not good for a regular turnover, so they keep changing things.
Little changes.. like software security updates which are essential, but not available for seriously old computers. The chips won't run them.
Then there's the plugs.. my real bug bear.. this old computer as 2 USB's, Firewire 400, Firewire 800, headphone 3,5 jack, and ethernet socket, not to mention one for the external monitor,  a CD slot and CF card slot.
My later MacBookPro (2011) has a Firewire 800 plug, ethernet, 2 USB's, 3,5jack and a thunderbolt socket, along with CD and SD card socket. I have to use a 'dongle' adaptor for the 400 to 800 socket for my camera. I bought several as no dongle, no work.
Morag's MacBookPro (2015) has 2 USB's, Thunderbolt, SD slot, 3,5 jack  and not a lot more. No CD burner/player. <deleted> all.
The latest Model, really fast etc, has newly designed USB sockets, no 3,5 jack (same as the new iPhones)
So dongles have to be bought just to plug headphones in, along with adaptors for the USB plugs.

They call this progress. That's why I stick with my old equipment and make it last. In addition my old software won't work on the new systems, so there goes my old photoshop which I just happen to like using. The new one is totally changed, and cannot be bought, only leased monthly.

I get fed up with this. Just down to my iPad.. and even the newest version does not have a 3,5 jack. The very flash folding keyboard now costs more than the iPad..

The old PC laptop from Carolyn is in good nick. She takes after me and looks after her kit. I only want it for some flying software, not much else. A whole new system and as I'm getting old I no longer have the patience or desire to learn a new system, even when it's cheaper.

Madness

My reply:

Really interesting reading your Mac synopsis, by the balls and then some.
Of course you are coming from a work/professional user, and that is where they really locked on to the fact, that not only were you joining their religion, but any thoughts of leaving would be simple be terminal, as far as your career would be concerned.
Frightening really, but they are the Pied Piper, you nothing more than a disciple, not on the road to Nazareth but Armageddon.

Of course you'll tell me you had no choice, those were the days when the writing came off the wall.
Hook, line and sinker, lemmings over a cliff, they sucked you all in in good faith, and now not only are you beholden to them, but worship them on the high altar.
Basically you were sold a pup, a car where the steering wheel has simple dissolved over time.
Huge and vast capital outlays, too good to be true, that only now are those in the industry waking up to this nightmare, that not only is analogue way preferable, but doesn't cost a king's ransom to produce.
Bitter - yes, you have every right to be.

Can we get this translated into English please. ????

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, Speedhump said:

I've been using, occasionally building and always tinkering with PCs since 1996,

Then it’s clear that you are 1 of a tiny minority of computer users.

 

8 hours ago, Speedhump said:

Macs are for computer dummies (OK, you say neophytes), who work alone without benefit of IT knowledge, and so need to pay a fortune for machines that do the job for a few years then need to be dumped.

Dummies is an extremely pejorative term for the majority of users who are not stupid though you imply they are. To inflate your ego? As to the time before machines get dumped it is usually twice the usable lifespan for Macs compared to windows machines. Along with the fact that if there is an IT department involved then the user has no say about the machine they are given. With the price comparison, you can get cheap dross in the windows world but if you actually compare like to like wintel machines are usually more expensive, much more so if the lifespan is factored in

 

8 hours ago, Speedhump said:

I bought a Mac in around 2005-6 and also an iPhone once, just to try. It was enough. 

And how is that surprising? What does it prove? That a windows user has a hard time with a different OS? It certainly has no meaning as to which is better.
 

I had the misfortune to get an Android phone as my first smart phone, it was a reasonably modern device inherited when it was only 6 months old. It was a thoroughly unpleasant experience & when it’s charging port died about 9 months later I was happy to go back to my Samsung Hero. I only got an iPhone when the SE second gen was released in 2020 and that was to use in our new car. The experience has been completely seamless, everything just works. You may ask why & the answer is that I’ve been using iPads since 2012 & as my main working computer since about 2014. Incidentally the 2012 iPad is still working.

[recom273]

With all due respect, the posters with negative comments aren't apple users so how would they understand?

 

I currently have a M1 Mac mini, iPhone 11, Apple Watch 3, iPad Air 3, iPad 7, Apple TV 4K, a reconditioned iPod fitted with SD cards along with a handful of AirTags, - my wife has an older iPad mini and a 2011 MacBook Pro, and our home automation is via HomeKit / homebridge.

 

If you "buy" into the whole ecosystem then everything works in harmony, its great. If you dont know the benefits then how can you appreciate the benefits of the system and of course you are going to be a hater.

 

To argue that the products have a shelf life, I disagree, the 2011 MacBook had an SSD and RAM upgrade, its still fit for purpose, websurfing, wordprocessing and basic photoshop duties, the powerbook that I bought in the 2002 still "works".  I have changed my phone every 7 years, thats great value. I struggled on with my 2011 powerbook for a few years than I should of, but it was still a serviceable computer.

 

"You can't expand the current range" but you can think and buy what you need from the start - For the M1 Mini I chose max RAM and smallest SSD because I store my files on linux servers at home. I think its great, it powers through everything I need it for, accessing data, design work and video editing and encoding. All for 30K .. its a bargain.

 

My Apple Watch is a pretty lame bit of kit and I would reluctantly buy another, even tho every OS update I need to delete the contents, upgrade and resync. If you are a Mac user and you use calendar diligently, then the watch is indispensable .. if you aren't, if you are a PC gamer, of course you would see it as overpriced junk. If I saved you tens of thousands of baht every year by not missing an appointment then you would understand. Yeah, you could put a reminder on your phone, maybe use google calendar, but that apple watch has saved my skin so many times.

 

My wife uses an android phone, I dont get it, the thing is a totally awful user experience. Those things occupy more of users time trying to find solutions rather than improving efficiency, but if you just make phone calls, play some games and take the odd snapshot then i'm sure its fine, its fine for her until its not then its the biggest headache.

 

If you were to say to me, a lot of apple products are bought by people not using their products to full potential, then I would totally agree, If I didn't get all the use I do from my system then I would be well happy with one of the new supercool looking linux distros. If you are comparing your standalone windows / linux / android devices then you could easily see how you think its overpriced junk with a limited shelf life.

[Speedhump]

6 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Then it’s clear that you are 1 of a tiny minority of computer users.

 

Dummies is an extremely pejorative term for the majority of users who are not stupid though you imply they are. To inflate your ego? As to the time before machines get dumped it is usually twice the usable lifespan for Macs compared to windows machines. Along with the fact that if there is an IT department involved then the user has no say about the machine they are given. With the price comparison, you can get cheap dross in the windows world but if you actually compare like to like wintel machines are usually more expensive, much more so if the lifespan is factored in

 

And how is that surprising? What does it prove? That a windows user has a hard time with a different OS? It certainly has no meaning as to which is better.
 

I had the misfortune to get an Android phone as my first smart phone, it was a reasonably modern device inherited when it was only 6 months old. It was a thoroughly unpleasant experience & when it’s charging port died about 9 months later I was happy to go back to my Samsung Hero. I only got an iPhone when the SE second gen was released in 2020 and that was to use in our new car. The experience has been completely seamless, everything just works. You may ask why & the answer is that I’ve been using iPads since 2012 & as my main working computer since about 2014. Incidentally the 2012 iPad is still working.

Don't be a dummy ????, I've bought "xxx for Dummies" books myself. Calm down. And I don't know anyone personally who bought 'incompatible' PC kit that had to be returned, but maybe you know people who buy stuff without knowing their board architecture, OS, etc. Acting like Apple zombies.... 

 

Oops I'm going for the windup with that last sentence. Feel free to ignore. ????

 

PS - the Mac OS as far as I remember was frustrating in its inability to accept powerful low level commands. Childish, even. 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Speedhump said:

PS - the Mac OS as far as I remember was frustrating in its inability to accept powerful low level commands. Childish, even. 

Then you are clearly not a Linux user and did not use the Terminal app, that allows you to get a low level as you want quite probably to a much lower level than is available in current windows. Very few use it but it’s there if you want. You can also run as root if you have the knowledge, or like the ability to completely cripple your OS..

 

Just because there is a successful series of books for neophytes labelled  as “for dummies” doesn’t change it pejorative meaning or make your ad hominem insult any better.

 

Your lack of knowledge of any one you know personally who has got incompatible parts has little meaning as to the rate of it happening. I don’t personally know anyone who has died in a motor vehicle accident but I know that thousands die annually.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, recom273 said:

To argue that the products have a shelf life, I disagree,

I think you may have misunderstood, if referring to my posts, but apple products do have a lifespan the Mackintosh Classics and Quadras I had, reached the end of life. My AirPort Base Station probably still works but is obsolete.

The thing with most Apple products is that they keep on working far beyond the lifespan of windows machines. I have had a few that died, though those are all iPods and I haven’t yet found someone to recondition them. 
 

My home sound network uses 6 AirPort Expresses ranging between 8 and 12 years old

 

As you mention the apple ecosystem is more valuable than the sum of its parts

 

 

[Paulaew]

I'm a longtime Mac user. In fact I was a professional Apple system engineer for some years, installing Macs and Appletalk networks at Stanford and Xerox PARC in the late 80's.

 

Apple is a religion, perhaps even a cult. When you're inside it seems like the true path for computing, but eventually you see the light and deprogram yourself.

 

I switched to generic Intel or AMD hardware long ago, running Linux. Apple too changed MacOS to a Unix kernel around 2005 and started using Intel processors as well. Despite all the bells and whistles, Macs are now just Unix machines.

 

Buy whatever you like, it doesn't really matter. But if you want a truly open system, Linux is probably the best open source system available today. But I understand it's not for everyone.

 

Paul Laew

 

 

[recom273]

34 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I think you may have misunderstood, if referring to my posts, but apple products do have a lifespan the Mackintosh Classics and Quadras I had, reached the end of life. My AirPort Base Station probably still works but is obsolete.

The thing with most Apple products is that they keep on working far beyond the lifespan of windows machines. I have had a few that died, though those are all iPods and I haven’t yet found someone to recondition them. 
 

My home sound network uses 6 AirPort Expresses ranging between 8 and 12 years old

 

As you mention the apple ecosystem is more valuable than the sum of its parts

 

 

I dont think I was referring to your post, maybe the spirit of the original editorial or the common "complaint" from windows users. Just as an example, my wife runs photoshop from 2000 on my old 2011 MacBook Pro - its pretty clunky, but its good enough to knock up a basic advert for her own business. After a certain time, they become retro Macs - like my powerbook G4, its just fun to kickstart every now and again to see if it works.

 

The last gen airport express are highly sought after, they use airplay 2.

Edited January 25, 2022 by recom273